Track forum general chit chat

[Gomeler]

Unrelated to the braking conversation, I'm installing camber plates on my GTS, and it has been an absolute treat to dig into this car. Feels bad undoing all these painted fasteners. The billet knuckles are absolutely gorgeous, I spent several minutes just rotating the knuckle and looking at it.

It is also nice not having to basically chase every thread, heat every other bolt, and cut off every third nut. I'm used to wrenching on my STI, or my old enduro Miata, both are tired cars with multiple owners.

I'll admit the strut nut gave some troubles once the strut's 10mm end was level with the 22mm nut as I backed the nut off, but a strap wrench immobilized the strut enough to remove it. There was some liberal application of loctite on that nut

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/at...1&d=1570741314

Going to burn the existing Sport Cup 2s to cords and then see what the used organ market will give me for a kidney to fund some AP Racing brakes + 18" wheel/tire setup.

[Gomeler]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

My goal is lower tier than yours, in that I want to qualify for and do well in some grassroots enduros like Thill 25 and I’m working on that by doing SM this year (first year) and some local SCCA regional club level 2hr enduro.

Good luck with your goal and hope we can use this thread to discuss if further.

Just start doing it. LuckyDog and Champ I believe are out in California. I know LuckyDog is still pretty cheap to rent seats, and it'll get you some enduro practice. I skipped right past SM and ran a WRL GP4 Miata for 2 years. Less time pulling dents and replacing panels, more time replacing drivetrains(engines and diffs become consumables), and a new-found appreciation for consistent and smooth laps.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Gomeler

Unrelated to the braking conversation, I'm installing camber plates on my GTS, and it has been an absolute treat to dig into this car. Feels bad undoing all these painted fasteners. The billet knuckles are absolutely gorgeous, I spent several minutes just rotating the knuckle and looking at it.

It is also nice not having to basically chase every thread, heat every other bolt, and cut off every third nut. I'm used to wrenching on my STI, or my old enduro Miata, both are tired cars with multiple owners.

I'll admit the strut nut gave some troubles once the strut's 10mm end was level with the 22mm nut as I backed the nut off, but a strap wrench immobilized the strut enough to remove it. There was some liberal application of loctite on that nut

Going to burn the existing Sport Cup 2s to cords and then see what the used organ market will give me for a kidney to fund some AP Racing brakes + 18" wheel/tire setup.

Such a beautiful car and SO good at the track. I've been able to put some serious seat time into one and it's such a pussycat yet so terribly effective.

Remember there's the RacingBrake rotor conversion to retain your nice calipers and swap just the rotors. Still not ideal because you'd have to run 19", but cheaper than getting a real BBK.

[Gomeler]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Such a beautiful car and SO good at the track. I've been able to put some serious seat time into one and it's such a pussycat yet so terribly effective.

Remember there's the RacingBrake rotor conversion to retain your nice calipers and swap just the rotors. Still not ideal because you'd have to run 19", but cheaper than getting a real BBK.

Depending on what my 2020 w2w racing plans end up being, I might go cheap and opt for M2C rotors + a set of 19x10 + 19x11 and call it good. I'm guessing I won't actually burn through enough rubber in 3-5 years to justify the 9668 + 9449 brake combo + 18" wheel setup. The GTS is meant to just be something fun when I'm not in a caged car

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Gomeler

Depending on what my 2020 w2w racing plans end up being, I might go cheap and opt for M2C rotors + a set of 19x10 + 19x11 and call it good. I'm guessing I won't actually burn through enough rubber in 3-5 years to justify the 9668 + 9449 brake combo + 18" wheel setup. The GTS is meant to just be something fun when I'm not in a caged car

True, true

Remember you can also use a 10.5 ET36 or ET40 and run square as well -- 15mm spacer up front and call it a day

[MyFragileHalogen]

I just wish the season didn't end yet as I missed the last month of track season sitting and waiting for backordered 2-piece rotors while leaving another 1 second I could improve to next year. After 4 years on track oh hell now every corner exit on the back road is easy opportunity for going sideway. I realize this car is in fact really made for this thing while it's not really good at going straight in street tires and colder weather; which I understand why most people would be happier with AWD on street. But hey everyone be safe and keep your lovely track machine away from the ditch till next track season.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

I saw you mentioning “My goal is to end up racing pro some day.”

I think Maynard gave some really good advice about using spec racer (Miata, e30, e36).

what’s your sim racing setup as well?

If you are just doing hpde non competitively, without a data for a basic sensor like brake pressure, I can’t help but bring up whether your current approach is maximizing the use of your time and resources towards your end goal.

My goal is lower tier than yours, in that I want to qualify for and do well in some grassroots enduros like Thill 25 and I’m working on that by doing SM this year (first year) and some local SCCA regional club level 2hr enduro.

Good luck with your goal and hope we can use this thread to discuss if further.

iRacing, decent setup.

I have all data except braking.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Gomeler

Just start doing it. LuckyDog and Champ I believe are out in California. I know LuckyDog is still pretty cheap to rent seats, and it'll get you some enduro practice. I skipped right past SM and ran a WRL GP4 Miata for 2 years. Less time pulling dents and replacing panels, more time replacing drivetrains(engines and diffs become consumables), and a new-found appreciation for consistent and smooth laps.

Luckydog is pretty much like a chump car type of thing though, right?

The front of SM has so many really talented drivers (who seem to be really happy sharing data) and that’s been huge.

I don’t know if luckydog or chump would teach me as much about how to wring out the max from the Miata

What’s your perspective on that?

[Gomeler]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Luckydog is pretty much like a chump car type of thing though, right?

The front of SM has so many really talented drivers (who seem to be really happy sharing data) and that’s been huge.

I don’t know if luckydog or chump would teach me as much about how to wring out the max from the Miata

What’s your perspective on that?

There is no replacement for seat time, and SM will give that to you in spades. My issues with SM completely lies in the "rubbing is racing" nature of SM. It might be completely regional, but I had 2 friends pick up SMs, and hearing the amount of body damage they had to repair completely put me off of it. I was okay pulling quarters and replacing doors every 3-4 WRL race weekends(48-64 hours of actual race time). There's no way I'm doing that every 3-5 hours of race time.

Another data point, the majority of my serious collisions in WRL were from GP3 Miatas that were typically SM conversions/dual-duty cars. Had somewhere between 5-8 hits across ~24 races where someone locked their fronts and punted me in a corner. I'm a little angry about this behavior..

I am 100% onboard with Miatas being the PERFECT learning platform. I just don't necessarily agree that SM is the ideal venue for learning car control, because of the behavior in the field. If SuperMiata was in my region, I would potentially consider that group. The cars run with aero, and can't afford to bump each other.

I should note, if you have a shop maintaining your car, then SM would probably be a much more palatable experience. I just actually enjoy wrenching on my cars.

edit: regarding LuckyDog and Chump, if your concerns lie around car prep and performance, I know there are several very fast Chump cars out there, not so certain on LuckyDog. I just have friends that run in a 1.8L Miata in LuckyDog, and it sounds like a pretty great series to learn endurance racing in. I don't think they're running cars as fast as GTO/GP1 WRL cars, or the faster stuff in AER, which I believe are comparable to the middle to top of the pack of the 25 hours of Thunderhill for example.

[F80Speed77]

Have you wheel to wheel guys heard of GridLife Touring Cup? Amazing racing and formula for entry level racing. This is going to be huge next year.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Gomeler

There is no replacement for seat time, and SM will give that to you in spades. My issues with SM completely lies in the "rubbing is racing" nature of SM. It might be completely regional, but I had 2 friends pick up SMs, and hearing the amount of body damage they had to repair completely put me off of it. I was okay pulling quarters and replacing doors every 3-4 WRL race weekends(48-64 hours of actual race time). There's no way I'm doing that every 3-5 hours of race time.

Another data point, the majority of my serious collisions in WRL were from GP3 Miatas that were typically SM conversions/dual-duty cars. Had somewhere between 5-8 hits across ~24 races where someone locked their fronts and punted me in a corner. I'm a little angry about this behavior..

I am 100% onboard with Miatas being the PERFECT learning platform. I just don't necessarily agree that SM is the ideal venue for learning car control, because of the behavior in the field. If SuperMiata was in my region, I would potentially consider that group. The cars run with aero, and can't afford to bump each other.

I should note, if you have a shop maintaining your car, then SM would probably be a much more palatable experience. I just actually enjoy wrenching on my cars.

edit: regarding LuckyDog and Chump, if your concerns lie around car prep and performance, I know there are several very fast Chump cars out there, not so certain on LuckyDog. I just have friends that run in a 1.8L Miata in LuckyDog, and it sounds like a pretty great series to learn endurance racing in. I don't think they're running cars as fast as GTO/GP1 WRL cars, or the faster stuff in AER, which I believe are comparable to the middle to top of the pack of the 25 hours of Thunderhill for example.

Thank you very much for the perspective. I really appreciate it.

I certainly have seen the contact you described in SM but so far have avoided it. My team mate and I “double dip” the car and put in about 5 hours of time each event weekend between open test, practice and quali and race, and so far it’s been clean. Knock on wood.

I do use a shop for some maintenance and if the event is at the track where the shop is located, it’s close to an arrive and drive experience. I don’t want to mess with setup so I use the known setup from the the shop’s winning customers.

By the way, did you get your GTS after your Miata and how aggressive is your driving in that car compared to Miata?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by NYG

I run DSC OFF and I'm pre-abs before corners. It's how I was taught originally by my NASA instructor.

I'm not a pro by any means so the question of whether or not I can improve my technique to reduce brake heat is an easy answer: absolutely.

The issue here is that I track with my buddies and we all analyze each other's braking/corner speeds/line. It's a C7 Grandsport, (2) 1LE Camaros with ZL1 brakes and a Shelby GT350 with a track pack. I'm the only one struggling with my brakes and I'm braking earlier and earlier throughout the day because I lose consistency. I'm also going a lot faster in the front and back straight than they are.

Take a look at my most recent Glen lap:

See how early I'm braking? This is day 2, last session. If I brake any later I don't know if the car will even stop before the run off.

I definitely need to improve my technique and I'm working on it but these brakes are sub-par. At the very least, the lack of brake cooling is a major issue that is well known on the F80.

I'm open to criticism, definitely not sensitive here.

It's difficult for me to comment on your braking since there's no data log on brake force. An oddity I do see is the throttle opening during braking. I am not sure how accurate your telemetry is, but it often shows 20~25% throttle during braking. If it is accurate, you are doing something wrong and not helping your brakes. Do you left foot brake? Or could maybe your right foot be overlapping your throttle pedal while you brake? You might want to look at your your footwork.

I can also share some other observations. Watching your video, your gear shifting seems at odds, where you downshift on track out instead of downshifting while braking before entering the corner. You also seem to be late on the throttle on track out. For fun, I compared your exit speeds to my own logs from the Glen and you are a fair bit slower on corner exit than I am on most of the corners. You probably could shave quite a lot of time by dowshifting before corner entry and especially by getting sooner and harder on the throttle right after the apex.

I am no pro, just sharing what I see

[NYG]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

It's difficult for me to comment on your braking since there's no data log on brake force. An oddity I do see is the throttle opening during braking. I am not sure how accurate your telemetry is, but it often shows 20~25% throttle during braking. If it is accurate, you are doing something wrong and not helping your brakes. Do you left foot brake? Or could maybe your right foot be overlapping your throttle pedal while you brake? You might want to look at your your footwork.

I can also share some other observations. Watching your video, your gear shifting seems at odds, where you downshift on track out instead of downshifting while braking before entering the corner. You also seem to be late on the throttle on track out. For fun, I compared your exit speeds to my own logs from the Glen and you are a fair bit slower on corner exit than I am on most of the corners. You probably could shave quite a lot of time by dowshifting before corner entry and especially by getting sooner and harder on the throttle right after the apex.

I am no pro, just sharing what I see

I noticed that too. I think it's some sort of data issue. I definitely don't left foot brake and I'm not on the throttle while I'm braking.

[Gomeler]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Thank you very much for the perspective. I really appreciate it.

I certainly have seen the contact you described in SM but so far have avoided it. My team mate and I “double dip” the car and put in about 5 hours of time each event weekend between open test, practice and quali and race, and so far it’s been clean. Knock on wood.

I do use a shop for some maintenance and if the event is at the track where the shop is located, it’s close to an arrive and drive experience. I don’t want to mess with setup so I use the known setup from the the shop’s winning customers.

By the way, did you get your GTS after your Miata and how aggressive is your driving in that car compared to Miata?

I ran the car with a partner, and we leaned on 949 Racing's setup for a lot of stuff. Definitely helps to get up to speed fast by not having to really worry about shock settings and alignment values at the start. Hopefully you have fun out there and keep it shiny side up.

I tended to be pretty aggressive with my Miata, going 2-wide in a corner with another w2w car that you are familiar with was okay during practice. The GTS will be relegated to passing on straights. There are no trophies on open lapping days so I won't force a flying lap.

[MaynardZed]

Originally Posted by NYG

I noticed that too. I think it's some sort of data issue. I definitely don't left foot brake and I'm not on the throttle while I'm braking.

Good to hear. I agree on the corner exit throttle. Sounds a little late and it’s a bit too much of on/off switch. Try rolling in the throttle more gradually and a little earlier. Your lap times are right there though, just gotta increase that Vmin a bit on each corner. Not a great track to learn on though, high speeds and lots of walls lol! I’d be scared sheetless.


For the W2W guys: I personally enjoy the tight racing I see in the E36, but yes I get contacted too much probably. Usually 2-4 times a year out of 20 or so races. Often it’s by cars above my class that should be far ahead of me. Almost lost the car last year, but the cage saved the unibody when someone crunched my trunk really hard. Offender paid for the repairs and I still race with him, but I keep my distance.

I get to race with some really amazing drivers sometimes too though. This is Hurley Hatch. He and his brother own the club I race with the majority of the time. His car control skills are off the charts. He literally full on drifts his cars around almost every corner, lol. I feel totally comfortable next to him in a corner even whe he’s sideways. Not many other drivers I can say that about.

[gman444]

Originally Posted by F80Speed77

Have you wheel to wheel guys heard of GridLife Touring Cup? Amazing racing and formula for entry level racing. This is going to be huge next year.

Was at their last two events for HPDE and I have to say this is such a fun race to watch. The last one at Gingerman had a night session in the rain with fireworks!

[NYG]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

Good to hear. I agree on the corner exit throttle. Sounds a little late and it’s a bit too much of on/off switch. Try rolling in the throttle more gradually and a little earlier. Your lap times are right there though, just gotta increase that Vmin a bit on each corner. Not a great track to learn on though, high speeds and lots of walls lol! I’d be scared sheetless.

Thanks bro!

[Montaver]

Close to picking up an F80 - question for F8x folks on rev-matching. Does full DSC off in every mode switch it off? Every thread I read seems to have conflicting info, some say its off in Sport+ only. Certainly on my E90 i'm not a fan of the sport plus throttle as its way too twitchy / binary.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Close to picking up an F80 - question for F8x folks on rev-matching. Does full DSC off in every mode switch it off? Every thread I read seems to have conflicting info, some say its off in Sport+ only. Certainly on my E90 i'm not a fan of the sport plus throttle as its way too twitchy / binary.

it can be coded IIRC. I love the rev matching, it's a wonderful idea

Sport+ in the F8X is still too twitchy for me. I use Sport at the track.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

it can be coded IIRC. I love the rev matching, it's a wonderful idea

Sport+ in the F8X is still too twitchy for me. I use Sport at the track.

I'd want it off for the street, but I'd like it on for the track. Wish BMW had just put it as an option in iDrive!

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

For the W2W guys: I personally enjoy the tight racing I see in the E36, but yes I get contacted too much probably. Usually 2-4 times a year out of 20 or so races. Often it’s by cars above my class that should be far ahead of me.

That’s a very polite way of describing those cars and their drivers

[NYG]

I've been thinking about an E46 a whole lot lately