So 3 cars engines blow up on E85 tunes by same tuner (according to a Facebook post )

[Fuel-It!]

Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin

Looks pretty aggressive to me for a pump fuel...sure there's meth but there would likely be more knock corrections but knock sensitivity is likely reduced (meaning higher tolerance for knock sensors so less timing corrections). I'm sure plenty others are running more timing for similar boost, etc... but there was clearly an issue with the higher WGDC to begin with. Plugs definitely got torched. Hot tune with hardware related issues would be my internet keyboard diagnosis...which is worth zero. Either way hope you get things resolved and get things back in a healthy state.

Desensitizing the knock sensors is usually a really bad idea especially unless the car is on straight E85. I noticed the short term fuel trims have a small variance. I'm not used to looking at logs in BM3 format but that could indicate a meth distribution imbalance too.

[E92inSG]

Originally Posted by Fuel-It!

Desensitizing the knock sensors is usually a really bad idea especially unless the car is on straight E85. I noticed the short term fuel trims have a small variance. I'm not used to looking at logs in BM3 format but that could indicate a meth distribution imbalance too.

I did consider that. I've always thought that 2 nozzles in the charge pipes give the best distribution besides direct port.

Is desensitizing the knock sensors a thing? I didn't realise this.

[Fuel-It!]

Originally Posted by E92inSG

I did consider that. I've always thought that 2 nozzles in the charge pipes give the best distribution besides direct port.

Is desensitizing the knock sensors a thing? I didn't realise this.

Yes it's done via the flash tables. I know the BMS BEF do not touch them but the tables are there and lots of tuners do. It makes increasing power a lot easier as the ECU doesn't pull timing as easily. But also increases risk.

On nozzle placement usually one in each chargepipe is fine but nozzles can become clogged or other things can limit flow. One of the JB4 meth safety systems is to monitor fuel trims in each bank and alert you if they are more than 15% apart so you can check it out.

[E92inSG]

Originally Posted by papasmurf_m3

Sorry to hear this.

It looks like 1 2 3 6 were ok brownish color running good.

5 looks like you had detonation really bad and melted your exhaust valve. Probably from lean condition most likely.

4 was getting pretty charred up too.

It does not look like you had mechanical failure in the sense of valve to spark plug contact. "Looks" like thermal issue and plugs and valves melted from the extreme heat. (too much timing advance, excessive lean condition, not enough octane for the amount of ignition advance)

Do you have any logs? There are some very bright people on this forum im sure can help more.


One quick question, were you running 1 or 2 meth nozzles and was this at the J pipe?

2 meth nozzles in charge pipes.

From my logs I can see timing advance doesn’t ever go past 12-12.5 max. Usually around 11-11.5. From what I understand this isn’t very aggressive?

As for lean condition, the AFR logs look ok. So perhaps it’s lean condition in that 1 cylinder you mean? Possibly uneven meth distribution?

From what I can see and understand, knocking in one cylinder USUALLY doesn’t point to a tuning error, rather it’s a hardware issue.

Correct me if I’m wrong please. I’m still learning as well

[Ed_rx7]

Originally Posted by E92inSG

It was still running but super rough. No drivetrain failure, no codes, no limp mode. I drove home.

Did you try just changing the plugs to see how it went!?

[Ed_rx7]

How does the final log compare to the other logs?..... can a trend be seen? If so can you highlight it please...... I want to know what to look out for?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Fuel-It!

Yes it's done via the flash tables. I know the BMS BEF do not touch them but the tables are there and lots of tuners do. It makes increasing power a lot easier as the ECU doesn't pull timing as easily. But also increases risk.
t.

Correct. This is nothing new, it's blown up many S65s, S54s, etc

[sly1types]

I think your #2 and #5 are mixed up, #1 should be toward the front of the car. in most of the logs in looked #2 is pulling A LOT of timing...do you have direct port meth? My guess is you don't and you aren't getting a good distribution across all cylinders. If you are running port it could be a bad meth injector, but your car was trying to pull the timing.

EDIT, i see you were just running a couple nozzles in your Jpipe...

It is surprising it wasn't showing any knock, i'm wondering how much the tuner turned that down/lowered the trigger value for knock.

You don't have to go far to find a blown engine that was running meth. The best use for meth is when you use it for a little cooling and then you add a little timing/boost to gain 20hp, some guys use a lot of meth to gain 100hp on pump 93...

Sorry this happened on your already built motor

[E92inSG]

Originally Posted by sly1types

I think your #2 and #5 are mixed up, #1 should be toward the front of the car. in most of the logs in looked #2 is pulling A LOT of timing...do you have direct port meth? My guess is you don't and you aren't getting a good distribution across all cylinders. If you are running port it could be a bad meth injector, but your car was trying to pull the timing.

EDIT, i see you were just running a couple nozzles in your Jpipe...

It is surprising it wasn't showing any knock, i'm wondering how much the tuner turned that down/lowered the trigger value for knock.

You don't have to go far to find a blown engine that was running meth. The best use for meth is when you use it for a little cooling and then you add a little timing/boost to gain 20hp, some guys use a lot of meth to gain 100hp on pump 93...

Sorry this happened on your already built motor

Thanks for the insight. Appreciate these replies

No I didn’t get 2 & 5 mixed up. The damaged plug was 2nd from the firewall/ 5th from the front. I was curious as well because all the logs show slight timing correction in #2 all the way until the final log.

I’m running 2 nozzles in the charge pipes, not J-pipe. But it really does look like uneven distribution + knock sensor suppression both contributed.

You can see multiple knock events on the 4th and final log. By then it was probably too late.

[sly1types]

Originally Posted by E92inSG

Thanks for the insight. Appreciate these replies

No I didn’t get 2 & 5 mixed up. The damaged plug was 2nd from the firewall/ 5th from the front. I was curious as well because all the logs show slight timing correction in #2 all the way until the final log.

I’m running 2 nozzles in the charge pipes, not J-pipe. But it really does look like uneven distribution + knock sensor suppression both contributed.

You can see multiple knock events on the 4th and final log. By then it was probably too late.

Yea it should have been showing a lot of knock earlier. Just ask your tuner if he adjusted the threshold.

Since that is number 5 and that failure happened so quick I wonder if it was just running a little lean then it had plug or valve failure.

It could be valve float, but I doubt it, are you on big turbos? I think that’s around 900hp on these.

[E92inSG]

Originally Posted by sly1types

Yea it should have been showing a lot of knock earlier. Just ask your tuner if he adjusted the threshold.

Since that is number 5 and that failure happened so quick I wonder if it was just running a little lean then it had plug or valve failure.

It could be valve float, but I doubt it, are you on big turbos? I think that’s around 900hp on these.

Pure Stage 2+, 28+ psi. Definitely not at 900hp.

Will update more once we open the engine next week. Currently more focused on getting the new engine in to get the car back on the road. Workshop also thinks its lean. Wouldnt AFR logs confirm lean condition if any?

*edit*
I will create a new thread next week after full tear down and will provide detailed photos and hopefully create an informed discussion on what exactly happened to hopefully prevent others from having the same catastrophic failures.

Will not respond further in this thread until then, thank you all for the responses so far

[mark5092]

Originally Posted by E92inSG

Thanks for the insight. Appreciate these replies

No I didn’t get 2 & 5 mixed up. The damaged plug was 2nd from the firewall/ 5th from the front. I was curious as well because all the logs show slight timing correction in #2 all the way until the final log.

I’m running 2 nozzles in the charge pipes, not J-pipe. But it really does look like uneven distribution + knock sensor suppression both contributed.

You can see multiple knock events on the 4th and final log. By then it was probably too late.

Noticed from one of your threads, your mod list mentioned where you originally had nozzles.

Current setup:
Built engine + FBO
Pure turbos stage 2+
BMS charge pipes
EOS Billet top mount cooler
Dual WMI nozzles on cooler (cold side)
RK tunes J pipe
CSF front mount cooler
f80paul custom tune BM3

[papasmurf_m3]

Originally Posted by E92inSG

2 meth nozzles in charge pipes.

From my logs I can see timing advance doesn’t ever go past 12-12.5 max. Usually around 11-11.5. From what I understand this isn’t very aggressive?

As for lean condition, the AFR logs look ok. So perhaps it’s lean condition in that 1 cylinder you mean? Possibly uneven meth distribution?

From what I can see and understand, knocking in one cylinder USUALLY doesn’t point to a tuning error, rather it’s a hardware issue.

Correct me if I’m wrong please. I’m still learning as well

Ya, you could have had a batch of bad gas, lack of knock retard, spark plugs, faulty fuel injector, faulty methanol injector, clogged, ran out of meth in the tank, Pump issue. So many variables. I wish you the best and hope this was just an anomoly and never happens to you again!

Does SG in your sn mean san gabriel?

[SickGTR]

Do any of these tunes offer any safety features? My M only has stage 2, so not really pushing it to hard. The OP has a built engine, turbos, E-85 and meth! Seems to me with all that invested, I would want some safety in there. My GTR is on Syvecs, and has a tone of safety built in. It took awhile to get it all dialed in, but it's perfect now. Expensive for sure, but worth it

[mark5092]

People senselessly heavily modifying these cars way past their limits. No reliability! Interesting how some refuse to blame the tunes and try to protect the tuners! It’s not always the car! I wouldn’t trust any tuners on this platform. Some that a few years ago were just plain forum members. I’ll stick with my BM3 OTS tunes on both our cars!

[mark5092]

Originally Posted by M4Viper

Interesting...
Who's the tuner?

I’m pretty sure if you read some of the other threads on the first page of this forum, you might just have your answer.

[Commanderwiggin]

Originally Posted by SickGTR

Do any of these tunes offer any safety features? My M only has stage 2, so not really pushing it to hard. The OP has a built engine, turbos, E-85 and meth! Seems to me with all that invested, I would want some safety in there. My GTR is on Syvecs, and has a tone of safety built in. It took awhile to get it all dialed in, but it's perfect now. Expensive for sure, but worth it

The factory ECU has plenty of safety features however most tuners raise the limiters farther than the specific setup can run. Think about it like this...you go to instagram and you see someone with X, Y, Z parts. You order X, Y, Z parts and contact that tuner and tell him you want the same tune. He sends you that tune which worked well on the first car, however your car might have something different or a mechanical issue and that eventually or quickly causes the motor to get damaged. This is why I prefer an Ecutek bespoke calibration which uses my vehicles OEM rom file for the start of the calibration and isn't a copy/paste setup like BM3/Instagram tuners usually provide. You have to understand that the customer is also at fault in these types of situations since they don't want to spend multiple days logging different runs and most of the time all they care about is to have the fastest setup; the customer in most of these situations doesn't care that the limiters are raised. The logic is...Car A with all these parts worked fine so mine should be fine too.
These customers also generally want to flash it and be done with it...but a true, bespoke calibration moulded to the car requires a higher number of revisions to dial everything in properly. Mechanical problems/diagnosis typically requires a lot more time investment as well and isn't a part of the agreement when you purchase a basic flash tune from whichever tuner for whichever platform.

My preferences are to have a more safe/reliable tune with factory protections in place and limiters not set to max; torque limiters on my build are set proper and not maxxed out. Many other limiters such as air temp correction are more conservative than stock on my build since when you increase boost and power levels, everything is going to warm up a lot faster so why would you leave or increase the air temp limiters.

[Commanderwiggin]

Originally Posted by mark5092

People senselessly heavily modifying these cars way past their limits. No reliability! Interesting how some refuse to blame the tunes and try to protect the tuners! It’s not always the car! I wouldn’t trust any tuners on this platform. Some that a few years ago were just plain forum members. I’ll stick with my BM3 OTS tunes on both our cars!

It's equally the customers fault in these situations...the customer in many cases doesn't understand the risks of the increased power levels as they want that 60-130 time they saw on an instagram post. In my opinion as a customer you should understand what you're purchasing before you go into it...however I strongly feel a tuner should advertise the risks to folks who don't know any better. This is why I chose Bend Calibration when I was looking to tune my M2C; he has always told me if things were being pushed aggressively to meet my goals and we both agree on having a reliable, fast and fun setup. Nobody likes a car to be down due to failures.

[godzllla85]

Originally Posted by mark5092

I’m pretty sure if you read some of the other threads on the first page of this forum, you might just have your answer.

Originally Posted by mark5092

I’m pretty sure if you read some of the other threads on the first page of this forum, you might just have your answer.

Thanks for the suggestion, I think we found our answer!

[chetrickerman]

Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin

The factory ECU has plenty of safety features however most tuners raise the limiters farther than the specific setup can run. Think about it like this...you go to instagram and you see someone with X, Y, Z parts. You order X, Y, Z parts and contact that tuner and tell him you want the same tune. He sends you that tune which worked well on the first car, however your car might have something different or a mechanical issue and that eventually or quickly causes the motor to get damaged. This is why I prefer an Ecutek bespoke calibration which uses my vehicles OEM rom file for the start of the calibration and isn't a copy/paste setup like BM3/Instagram tuners usually provide. You have to understand that the customer is also at fault in these types of situations since they don't want to spend multiple days logging different runs and most of the time all they care about is to have the fastest setup; the customer in most of these situations doesn't care that the limiters are raised. The logic is...Car A with all these parts worked fine so mine should be fine too.
These customers also generally want to flash it and be done with it...but a true, bespoke calibration moulded to the car requires a higher number of revisions to dial everything in properly. Mechanical problems/diagnosis typically requires a lot more time investment as well and isn't a part of the agreement when you purchase a basic flash tune from whichever tuner for whichever platform.

My preferences are to have a more safe/reliable tune with factory protections in place and limiters not set to max; torque limiters on my build are set proper and not maxxed out. Many other limiters such as air temp correction are more conservative than stock on my build since when you increase boost and power levels, everything is going to warm up a lot faster so why would you leave or increase the air temp limiters.

Spot on!

[Bmwlmr99]

I've stayed away from e85 tunes....have 85,000 miles VFstage 2 93 octane , full exhaust dp mpe muffler, CSF intercooler, carbon intake....not one check engine light or any issues, I down shift do 3rd gear pulls against mustangs , dodges , vettes...car is fast

[sna66]

yeah, someone slap me if I ever think about an e85 tune