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      04-07-2017, 06:27 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Habber View Post
Say whatever you want about the M2 but it's a step down from the M3/M4. Unless it's about money, why bother?

The whole allure of the M2 is that it's ALMOST like the M4 but cheaper.
But why are you M3/M4 owners so threatened by the M2? It's almost like you hate it. Is it because almost ALL car journalists LOVE the M2 but not the M3/M4?

Btw, this whole "M2 is only for poor people not being able to afford an M4" could be used against you. Why are you not driving a Porsche 911 Turbo? And the 911 Turbo owner can be asked why he isn't driving a Ferrari. Basically there's always a more expensive, faster car...

Clearly, your feelings are hurt, all that hype for the M2 must be tough.

I don't dislike the M4. In fact I think it's quite beautiful. But I would rather buy a 911 Carrera S or GTS. I think that would be cheaper in a way as they hold their value much better than the M4 even if the M4 is a cheaper car.

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      04-07-2017, 07:39 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verdi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habber View Post
Say whatever you want about the M2 but it's a step down from the M3/M4. Unless it's about money, why bother?

The whole allure of the M2 is that it's ALMOST like the M4 but cheaper.
But why are you M3/M4 owners so threatened by the M2? It's almost like you hate it. Is it because almost ALL car journalists LOVE the M2 but not the M3/M4?

Btw, this whole "M2 is only for poor people not being able to afford an M4" could be used against you. Why are you not driving a Porsche 911 Turbo? And the 911 Turbo owner can be asked why he isn't driving a Ferrari. Basically there's always a more expensive, faster car...

Clearly, your feelings are hurt, all that hype for the M2 must be tough.

I don't dislike the M4. In fact I think it's quite beautiful. But I would rather buy a 911 Carrera S or GTS. I think that would be cheaper in a way as they hold their value much better than the M4 even if the M4 is a cheaper car.
Don't know where you got that "we are threatened" by the M2. Maybe we just don't see the hype.
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      04-07-2017, 07:53 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habber View Post
Don't know where you got that "we are threatened" by the M2. Maybe we just don't see the hype.
Sure

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_effect
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      04-07-2017, 08:00 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Verdi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habber View Post
Don't know where you got that "we are threatened" by the M2. Maybe we just don't see the hype.
Sure

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_effect
Perhaps is just really others having:



https://owlcation.com/social-science...ts-of-Jealousy
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      04-07-2017, 08:17 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habber View Post
Perhaps is just really others having:



https://owlcation.com/social-science...ts-of-Jealousy
Yeah, that must be why the M2 got rave reviews but the M4 can't get any love...

Nah, seriously. I think the M4 is the better looking car no doubt but the price difference is too much IMHO.
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      04-07-2017, 08:37 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verdi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habber View Post
Perhaps is just really others having:



https://owlcation.com/social-science...ts-of-Jealousy
Yeah, that must be why the M2 got rave reviews but the M4 can't get any love...

Nah, seriously. I think the M4 is the better looking car no doubt but the price difference is too much IMHO.
I actually like the M2 looks better since I'm not a fan of the M4 lines. That's why I chose the M3 which looks the nicest of the 3 IMO.

There's no loser here. It's great that there are 3 options to choose from all offering MT.
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      04-07-2017, 06:53 PM   #51
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I would maybe consider M2 CS, but only if they add M bits which the current M2 is lacking.

With BMW putting M Sport Packages / more powerful engines / etc on standard cars these days means an M car needs to be more special.
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      04-07-2017, 06:54 PM   #52
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I would maybe consider M2 CS, but only if they add M bits which the current M2 is lacking.

With BMW putting M Sport Packages / more powerful engines / etc on standard cars these days means an M car needs to be more special.
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      04-07-2017, 06:55 PM   #53
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I would maybe consider M2 CS, but only if they add M bits which the current M2 is lacking.

With BMW putting M Sport Packages / more powerful engines / etc on standard cars these days means an M car needs to be more special.
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      04-07-2017, 11:18 PM   #54
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M2 is a great car no question. I think the M2 looks great, and is good value for what you get, but the F8X beats it in the following categories:

1.) Performance
2.) Luxury
3.) Versatility
4.) Options

IMO the M2 is a perfect wife car. If you think about it it truly is.
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      04-10-2017, 07:38 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Sassicaia View Post
M2 is a great car no question. I think the M2 looks great, and is good value for what you get, but the F8X beats it in the following categories:

1.) Performance
2.) Luxury
3.) Versatility
4.) Options

IMO the M2 is a perfect wife car. If you think about it it truly is.
Nice try.

My wife is not interested in driving dynamics and the joy of driving but she does like luxuary and prestige. So maybe the M4 is more of a wife car?
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      04-24-2017, 11:48 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verdi View Post
Nice try.

My wife is not interested in driving dynamics and the joy of driving but she does like luxuary and prestige. So maybe the M4 is more of a wife car?
Brilliant response. It's so sad how this forum is becoming so much about luxury, prestige and status. There was a time a BMW was bought for its performance. It wasn't about luxury and prestige. There was Mercedes Benz for that.

At least 5 years ago we acknowledged that some of the cheaper Japanese and American cars were faster but only in a straight line. The discussion was about performance. Now it's about interiors, style, prestige, luxury, what you look like in it, all way to who should be driving the car (man or woman, husband or wife etc.). Making blanket judgements about why someone is driving the car (oh they couldn't afford an M4 so they bought an M2). I've seen some people rich enough to own most of you pick a cheaper car for reasons outside money and I've seen kids who don't even make 6 figures lease these cars. It's all become about status, prestige and luxury. I guess that's what today's BMW fans care about most.

Let's not forget how crappy BMW interiors were not that long ago. It was Audi you picked if you wanted money spent on interiors over the drivetrain and chassis. Now you can pick BMW for the same thing. You used to have a choice before now it's all the same. They all want to put the money into the interiors and present correctly for the perception that it's a "luxury" brand.

The M4 is so big that it's a grand tourer. If that's what you want so be it. Some people want a small sporty BMW. They don't care for your merino leather seats or whatever luxury tech item or finish or look or perception you want to brag about.

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      04-24-2017, 01:17 PM   #57
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that m2 is an amazing car. if it came with an s55 engine and ccb, i think some f8x owners would make the switch.
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      04-24-2017, 01:44 PM   #58
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that m2 is an amazing car. if it came with an s55 engine and ccb, i think some f8x owners would make the switch.
That's my issue. And I've driven the M2 at 2 day M school in Thermal. It needed a more "special" engine. N55 come on now. It should have at least been the B58. An M2 with the S55 would have changed things for many people. I would have been able to look past the M2s interior flaws if it had a better power plant. My wife liked the M2 more then I did FYI
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      05-11-2017, 06:41 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verdi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habber
Say whatever you want about the M2 but it's a step down from the M3/M4. Unless it's about money, why bother?

The whole allure of the M2 is that it's ALMOST like the M4 but cheaper.
[...]this whole "M2 is only for poor people not being able to afford an M4" could be used against you. Why are you not driving a Porsche 911 Turbo? And the 911 Turbo owner can be asked why he isn't driving a Ferrari. Basically there's always a more expensive, faster car...

Clearly, your feelings are hurt, all that hype for the M2 must be tough.

I don't dislike the M4. In fact I think it's quite beautiful. But I would rather buy a 911 Carrera S or GTS. I think that would be cheaper in a way as they hold their value much better than the M4 even if the M4 is a cheaper car.
Fair observations. M4 is, in many ways, a cheaper 911.
If I was in a market for an M4, I would have seriously considered ponying up for a Carrera S.
If cash flow delta impact and douche-Porsche guy cliche were not a consideration. Not that BMW ownership doesn't come with its own set of (negative) pre-conceptions, but Porsche takes it to whole new level.

Alas, I need 4 doors (kids in the back), and find M3 just about the perfect vehicle for the part.

I also test-drove M2 on track last year, and found it very comparable to an M3. However, the interior space was much tighter, and interior quality was a step down. No 4 door == no sale for me.

Other than that, "M2 is ALMOST like the M4 but cheaper".
That's not a put down. It's how it is.

Now if M2 CS with S55 motor comes out, and that car is still priced below the M4, then THAT would be something special!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verdi View Post
My wife is not interested in driving dynamics and the joy of driving but she does like luxuary and prestige. So maybe the M4 is more of a wife car?
M3 certainly is.
My wife loves it too!

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      05-11-2017, 07:28 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by JRMorgan View Post
It's so sad how this forum is becoming so much about luxury, prestige and status. There was a time a BMW was bought for its performance. It wasn't about luxury and prestige. There was Mercedes Benz for that.
Really?
When did BMW not have a yuppie-mobile image?

Remember the 80s E30 commercials?
Pure yuppie bait.
Same a Mercedes, but for a slightly younger audience.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMorgan View Post
At least 5 years ago we acknowledged that some of the cheaper Japanese and American cars were faster but only in a straight line.
You must be thinking about the 70s and 80s.


5-/10-years ago we already had Nissan GTR that ate all BMW ///M-cars for breakfast, in straight line and in corners, on track and on the street.
C6/C7 Corvettes were also faster than ///M cars. And cheaper. And better track toys.

We still buy ///M-cars, but not because they are the best at anything anymore. The competition has caught up, and (lucky for us, customers), there are 4-5 compelling alternatives to M2, M3, and M4. And at least a few of them are cheaper, and faster, and build with higher quality. Maybe not best at everything, but at least at a few things, for certain.

///M-cars remain (arguably) the best at combining all aspects into a nice all-around package: performance + luxury + every day usability + track toy fun.
They are not the best at anything anymore, including the M2, but they are still a compelling overall package. At a premium price point.

That's why people bring up luxury and interior quality in evaluating the M2.
You want an all-out track monster for under M2's $50K - get Camaro 2SS. Or step up to ZL1 to embarrass Porsche GT3.
You want track worthy daily driver sedan for under $50K - say hello to Civic Type R, or Ford Focus RS, or Audi S3, or, God forbid, RS3.

Type R will beat M2 and M3 on track, and all for $35K!
RS3 will do it in style, and with better interior quality.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMorgan View Post
Some people want a small sporty BMW. They don't care for your merino leather seats or whatever luxury tech item or finish or look or perception you want to brag about.
Most people want small, fun, sporty cars. Period.
If you care about fluffy leather M2 seats, or "whatever luxury tech item or finish or look or perception you want to brag about" - knock yourself out.


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      05-12-2017, 02:55 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by afadeev View Post
Fair observations. M4 is, in many ways, a cheaper 911.
If I was in a market for an M4, I would have seriously considered ponying up for a Carrera S.
If cash flow delta impact and douche-Porsche guy cliche were not a consideration. Not that BMW ownership doesn't come with its own set of (negative) pre-conceptions, but Porsche takes it to whole new level.

Alas, I need 4 doors (kids in the back), and find M3 just about the perfect vehicle for the part.

I also test-drive M2 on track last year, and found it very comparable to an M3. However, the interior space was much tighter, and interior quality was a step down. No 4 door == no sale for me.

Other than that, "M2 is ALMOST like the M4 but cheaper".
That's not a put down. It's how it is.

Now if M2 CS with S55 motor comes out, and that car is still priced below the M4, then THAT would be something special!



M3 certainly is.
My wife loves it too!

a
Since l wrote that I've now driven M3 and M4 ZCP with full leather interior on a track. It's a sweet car no doubt! I want one for sure but the cost would be twice as much as the M2 is costing me. Is it twice the car?

To me the full leather interior is what makes the big difference. An M3/M4 without the leather dash isn't really that much nicer than the M2. I've owned several 3- and 4- series and the M2 didn't underwhelm me and I didn't really get what you meant until I tried the full leather ones. Yes the Merino is nicer to touch than the Dakota but it's not that big of a deal for me.

I don't really think that you buy an M2 to be quicker around a track than a Civic Type R. It's really different things. The Honda is hideous and have this ricer image. The M2 is RWD and gives you a completely different experience.

Btw, the only Ring times I trust is from the german Auto Motor and Sport's Supertest. http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/s...-10888778.html

Those records you see from FWD cars are not being set with production cars... Different tires alone will make a huge difference.

Nurburgring supertest times:
M4: 7.52 min
M2: 8.01 min
Focus RS: 8.06 min
Type R. 8.15 min
Old RS3: 8.20 min

With the M2 they only had one lap with a fully dry track and also some other problems with grease and stuff in one section. It should have done better still. Well under 8 minutes for sure.

Hockenheim supertest times:
M2: 1.12,5 min
M4: 1.12,8 min
Focus RS: 1.14,2 min
Old RS3: 1.15,4 min
Type R: 1.15,8 min

The M2 isn't really well adapted to the Nurburgring either. The chassis is too firm for the bumpy track. Around the shorter and smoother Hockenheim the M2 was faster than the M4 even.

When I drove the M4 on track I talked to one of the instructors and he told me they had raced M4 vs M2 on that track last year and it was very interesting. On the straights the M4 pulled away but in the more technical sections the M2 caught up. And like they said, going fast in a straight line isn't difficult or rewarding. Anyone can do that. The fun in racing is getting the curves right.

I'd say the M2 is excellent value for money. It's fun, it sounds good, it looks good, it's an M car...

Edit: These American cars you mention are more expensive here in Europe than they are for you and they are not really an option for most of us. It's difficult to explain but they also have a kind of bad reputation from the past. It's considered poor taste to drive american cars and they are also known for being horrible other than in a straight line (which I know isn't true anymore, but it takes some time to change a reputation).

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      05-12-2017, 02:00 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verdi View Post
Since l wrote that I've now driven M3 and M4 ZCP with full leather interior on a track. It's a sweet car no doubt! I want one for sure but the cost would be twice as much as the M2 is costing me. Is it twice the car?
[...]Edit: These American cars you mention are more expensive here in Europe than they are for you and they are not really an option for most of us. It's difficult to explain but they also have a kind of bad reputation from the past. It's considered poor taste to drive american cars and they are also known for being horrible other than in a straight line (which I know isn't true anymore, but it takes some time to change a reputation).
You are in Sweden, the land of socialist paradise and taxation ;-).

In the US, M2 is exactly $13.7K (26%) more than M4: $52.5K vs. $66.2K.
M3 is $64K, and only $11.5K (22%) over M2.

Is M3 22-26% better than M2 for me?
Absolutely!

If M3 was 2x the cost of M2, I would have bought AMG 63s, or Alfa Guilia, or ATS-V, etc, etc.

It's not just an M2 vs. M3 vs. M4 decision!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verdi View Post
To me the full leather interior is what makes the big difference. An M3/M4 without the leather dash isn't really that much nicer than the M2.
I had ordered my M3 without leather dash, which does nothing for me other than requires more maintenance. I've seen too many 10+ year old bimmers with cracked dashboards.
I don't follow why you reduce M2 vs. M3 discussion to just leather obsession.

To me, M3/4 is a larger (longer and wider), more comfortable, more powerful, faster GT car.

I needed a 4-door GT car that can comfortably hold 4 (4 doors), can be a good daily driver, and can hit the track 5-15 days/year without mods or falling apart.
M2 and M3/4 satisfy the second requirement.
Only M3 satisfies the first.

The fact that M3/4 is only ~50 heavier than M2 is quite remarkable.
For a much smaller car that M2 is, it should have been ~200-300 lbs lighter. BMW seriously missed a boat on that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Verdi View Post
I don't really think that you buy an M2 to be quicker around a track than a Civic Type R. It's really different things. The Honda is hideous and have this ricer image. The M2 is RWD and gives you a completely different experience.
See my requirements above.
Type R would (almost) meet them. So would S3. RS3 would be just about awesome, possibly better than M3. I will have to test drive it for sure.

FWD vs. RWD vs. AWD is a red herring.
I had tons of fun with MCS (Mini Cooper S) a few years ago, and even though it required adopting one's driving style to manage the heavier front axle, it can be done. And it's a fun challenge to adopt to a new car. And it can be LOTS of fun.
Memories of autoX-ing with hand-brake hairpin turns during the rain still bring a smile to my face.
M3 guys complained that I was cheating ... as I collected the FTD over cars with 2x the horsepower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verdi View Post
I'd say the M2 is excellent value for money. It's fun, it sounds good, it looks good, it's an M car...
M2 is a great car. I drove it. On track. I liked it. It doesn't fit my needs. I'm not buying it.
If you prefer it - good for you.
No hard feelings.
To each his own.

M3 is irreplaceable to me (until I test drive RS3).
Please don't tell me that my preference is somehow irrational, or that I'm just hell bent for leather.



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      05-15-2017, 04:35 AM   #63
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Yeah, we have high taxes but actually it's not so bad for cars. Much better than in our neighbouring countries thanks to our car industry. (Volvo, Haldex, Öhlins, Autoliv...)

It's not that an M3 is twice the price. It's not. But for me the M3 demands a lot more extras. DCT, HUD, full merino leather, adaptive LEDs, Competition Package etc etc. A more expensive car will also have more deprecation. Not just in dollars but also in percent. I think a used M2 will be very popular for years to come as it's so affordable.

I really understand you. I'd love to DD an M3 as well but as for the moment I DD my i3 and use the M2 for fun on weekends. I don't need it to be very practical.

I don't understand why you would like the RS3 though. It's such a bland looking car... And it's just as small as the M2. It just comes with more doors and a bigger trunk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by afadeev View Post
You are in Sweden, the land of socialist paradise and taxation ;-).

In the US, M2 is exactly $13.7K (26%) more than M4: $52.5K vs. $66.2K.
M3 is $64K, and only $11.5K (22%) over M2.

Is M3 22-26% better than M2 for me?
Absolutely!

If M3 was 2x the cost of M2, I would have bought AMG 63s, or Alfa Guilia, or ATS-V, etc, etc.

It's not just an M2 vs. M3 vs. M4 decision!



I had ordered my M3 without leather dash, which does nothing for me other than requires more maintenance. I've seen too many 10+ year old bimmers with cracked dashboards.
I don't follow why you reduce M2 vs. M3 discussion to just leather obsession.

To me, M3/4 is a larger (longer and wider), more comfortable, more powerful, faster GT car.

I needed a 4-door GT car that can comfortably hold 4 (4 doors), can be a good daily driver, and can hit the track 5-15 days/year without mods or falling apart.
M2 and M3/4 satisfy the second requirement.
Only M3 satisfies the first.

The fact that M3/4 is only ~50 heavier than M2 is quite remarkable.
For a much smaller car that M2 is, it should have been ~200-300 lbs lighter. BMW seriously missed a boat on that.




See my requirements above.
Type R would (almost) meet them. So would S3. RS3 would be just about awesome, possibly better than M3. I will have to test drive it for sure.

FWD vs. RWD vs. AWD is a red herring.
I had tons of fun with MCS (Mini Cooper S) a few years ago, and even though it required adopting one's driving style to manage the heavier front axle, it can be done. And it's a fun challenge to adopt to a new car. And it can be LOTS of fun.
Memories of autoX-ing with hand-brake hairpin turns during the rain still bring a smile to my face.
M3 guys complained that I was cheating ... as I collected the FTD over cars with 2x the horsepower.



M2 is a great car. I drove it. On track. I liked it. It doesn't fit my needs. I'm not buying it.
If you prefer it - good for you.
No hard feelings.
To each his own.

M3 is irreplaceable to me (until I test drive RS3).
Please don't tell me that my preference is somehow irrational, or that I'm just hell bent for leather.



a
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      05-15-2017, 10:26 AM   #64
afadeev
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verdi View Post
Yeah, we have high taxes but actually it's not so bad for cars. Much better than in our neighbouring countries thanks to our car industry. (Volvo, Haldex, Öhlins, Autoliv...)
OK, comrade.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Verdi View Post
It's not that an M3 is twice the price. It's not. But for me the M3 demands a lot more extras. DCT, HUD, full merino leather, adaptive LEDs, Competition Package etc etc.
Options are just that - optional.
Different options appeal to different people. Some like DCT and HUD (I do), but not LED, or CCB, or full leather (me as well).
Others buy stripper M3/4's with 6MT, cloth seats, and nothing else, and hit the track.

Having more options on the menu does not obligate you to buy them all, nor does option availability directly impact car's depreciation. It's more complicated than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verdi View Post
A more expensive car will also have more deprecation. Not just in dollars but also in percent. I think a used M2 will be very popular for years to come as it's so affordable.
Some options depreciate more than others. For example, Porsche is notorious for charging $$$$ for Porsche crest imprints and embroidery on the head-rests. The used market value of that option is, roughly, $0.00. On the other hand, comp pack might make an M3 more desirable on the secondary market, and lower the overall depreciation of the car.

In general, the exact price of the car is not a good proxy for deprecation estimation. M3 is more expensive than 230i (cheapest BMW in the US), but the 230i depreciates more than M3. Yet, both depreciate less than the 740i.

In the US, BMW FS lists M3 36-month/30K lease residual value at 62% (M4's is at 61%).
Same lease terms' residual value for M2 is 46% after 3 years.

Lease offers: https://www.bmwusa.com/special-offers.html

Draw your own conclusions.

a
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      05-15-2017, 01:44 PM   #65
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Come on. 46% is very low and it's them playing it safe on a new model. I'd say at least 66%.
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