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      07-01-2018, 10:48 PM   #1
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2015 M4 vs 991.2/991.2 S Butt Dyno Question

For those of you fortunate enough to have driven both, how do these two compare? 3-1/2 years ago I chose my 2015 M4 over a 991.1 CPO and have been extremely happy with it. Some might be intimidated by the lack of traction under certain circumstances but I find it an absolute blast. Having power on tap and the ability to slide it around is intoxicating!

So whats your take on the 991.2 and 991.2 S? Does it pull as hard as the F80/F82 and can it be as playful?
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      07-02-2018, 09:44 AM   #2
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1.1 will not feel as fast because of the torque curve (NA motor) but it will sure-as-shit sound amazing, have MUCH better throttle response, and it's an awesome car. The 1.2 motor will feel a little faster (turbo power) and have better traction, but lose some of the flat 6 magic.
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      07-02-2018, 02:13 PM   #3
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Both stock, the M4 will destroy 991.2 base in straight line (I have had both). 991.2 S might be a bit different story as it weigh lesser, 200-300 lbs than the M4 and has close to/same power. I'm sure you're aware of the handling difference between the two so let's not go there. The 911 is definitely not straight line monster unless you will upgrade turbos (currently at 600 whp for 991.2 base/S/GTS) or started with the big Turbo/Turbo S.

The power delivery in the 991.2 base feel as linear as NA motor and also very torquey down low but that's not what the OP asked.
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      07-02-2018, 02:55 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajun1 View Post
For those of you fortunate enough to have driven both, how do these two compare? 3-1/2 years ago I chose my 2015 M4 over a 991.1 CPO and have been extremely happy with it. Some might be intimidated by the lack of traction under certain circumstances but I find it an absolute blast. Having power on tap and the ability to slide it around is intoxicating!

So whats your take on the 991.2 and 991.2 S? Does it pull as hard as the F80/F82 and can it be as playful?
I owned both an M3 and M4 and own a 991.2S.

991.2 base and M4 are a drivers race (both trap about 118). On track, a base 991.2 outpaces the M3/4 with ease.
A 991.2 S is much faster in a straight and much faster on track. In fact, despite having summer tread, 80 hp and over 100 to less, the 991.2S beats up an M4 GTS easily.
The 991.1S is faster on track but doesn’t have the torque these other cars have but it is a far sharper car than an m4.
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      07-02-2018, 09:20 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajun1 View Post
For those of you fortunate enough to have driven both, how do these two compare? 3-1/2 years ago I chose my 2015 M4 over a 991.1 CPO and have been extremely happy with it. Some might be intimidated by the lack of traction under certain circumstances but I find it an absolute blast. Having power on tap and the ability to slide it around is intoxicating!

So whats your take on the 991.2 and 991.2 S? Does it pull as hard as the F80/F82 and can it be as playful?
I owned both an M3 and M4 and own a 991.2S.

991.2 base and M4 are a drivers race (both trap about 118). On track, a base 991.2 outpaces the M3/4 with ease.
A 991.2 S is much faster in a straight and much faster on track. In fact, despite having summer tread, 80 hp and over 100 to less, the 991.2S beats up an M4 GTS easily.
The 991.1S is faster on track but doesn't have the torque these other cars have but it is a far sharper car than an m4.
May you please posts sources to your claims that the 991.2 in base and S beat the M3/4 with "ease." Don't think you are lying but prefer the facts on this one (admittedly may be hard to find with same driver). I hope for the premium you pay for it, that it does. Agree that it is sharper (although that is a bit subjective to me). Thanks.
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      07-02-2018, 09:48 PM   #6
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Per https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ic-test-review the 991.2 C2S traps 123 in the 1/4, that should give it a pretty good edge acceleration rise (from a stop and roll), and seat of the pants wise it should feel significantly quicker as well

Same mag got 119 in the 1/4 for the MY15 M4 https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ic-test-review
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      07-02-2018, 09:50 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusionchicken View Post
Per https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ic-test-review the 991.2 C2S traps 123 in the 1/4, that should give it a pretty good edge acceleration rise (from a stop and roll), and seat of the pants wise it should feel significantly quicker as well

Same mag got 119 in the 1/4 for the MY15 M4 https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ic-test-review
I meant on a track as in a road course, not quarter mile. Should have clarified
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      07-02-2018, 09:52 PM   #8
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Goody, another Porsche vs bmw
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      07-02-2018, 10:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
I meant on a track as in a road course, not quarter mile. Should have clarified
I’ll provide both, and both done by the same driver. 2016 MT Best Driver’s Car

991.2S on summer tires: 3rd Place overall
1/4 mile - 11.5@120.5
Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca - 1:36.44
Factor in cup tires on the 991.2S and it’s likely to be 1:34.9x which the M4 GTS isn’t in the same league no matter which way you slice it. Makes you wonder what the full track suspension, cage, much more aero, 80 ho and 100 torque do for the M4 GTS...not that much.

M4 GTS on cup tires: 11th place overall
1/4 mile - 12.3@118.8
Mazda RacewY Laguna Seca - 1:37.66

https://www.google.com/amp/www.motor...ivers-car/amp/


Just to add - here is one of the heaviest, most GT (more than the other non GTx 911s) versions they make in the Targa 4 GTS - 11.4@123 mph. 0-100 in 7.5 and 0-150 in 18.6 or 1.1 second faster than an M4 Competition despite being heavier and 3.3 seconds faster to 150.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ic-test-review

Last edited by Funf6cyl; 07-02-2018 at 10:39 PM..
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      07-02-2018, 10:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
I meant on a track as in a road course, not quarter mile. Should have clarified
I'll provide both, and both done by the same driver. 2016 MT Best Driver's Car

991.2S on summer tires: 3rd Place overall
1/4 mile - 11.5@120.5
Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca - 1:36.44
Factor in cup tires on the 991.2S and it's likely to be 1:34.9x which the M4 GTS isn't in the same league no matter which way you slice it. Makes you wonder what the full track suspension, cage, much more aero, 80 ho and 100 torque do for the M4 GTS...not that much.

M4 GTS on cup tires: 11th place overall
1/4 mile - 12.3@118.8
Mazda RacewY Laguna Seca - 1:37.66

https://www.google.com/amp/www.motor...ivers-car/amp/


Just to add - here is one of the heaviest, most GT (more than the other non GTx 911s) versions they make in the Targa 4 GTS - 11.4@123 mph. 0-100 in 7.5 and 0-150 in 18.6 or 1.1 second faster than an M4 Competition despite being heavier and 3.3 seconds faster to 150.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ic-test-review
Got it. Thanks. So none where base 991.2 beats the M4 comp? I get your point about GTS, I personally don't see much value in it, for that money I'd take the S, never been a fan of the GTS. Just trying to see why you say the base 991.2 beats it with "ease" when I haven't seen figures to back it up yet.
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      07-02-2018, 11:10 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
. Just trying to see why you say the base 991.2 beats it with "ease" when I haven't seen figures to back it up yet.
It's all about alternative facts these days

Btw, one factor that's often overlooked in these Internet lap time debates is how hard the car needs to get pushed to achieve those lap times, and whether average Joe owner will be able to do it or not (both skills wise and willingness to push a $100+k p-car hard)
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      07-03-2018, 08:24 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
Got it. Thanks. So none where base 991.2 beats the M4 comp? I get your point about GTS, I personally don't see much value in it, for that money I'd take the S, never been a fan of the GTS. Just trying to see why you say the base 991.2 beats it with "ease" when I haven't seen figures to back it up yet.
Actually I have a couple for that.

MT did a test of a base 991.2 with a manual which was 1.9 seconds faster than an M4 Comp around Thunder hill. The M4 was DCT so if you factor that into the 911 it would be at least 3 seconds faster.

Yes I do have results for that against a reg M4 in which a competition isn’t materially faster.

Here is a base 991.2 beating an M4 with ease. A competition is not going to take off 1.2 seconds vs a regular M4.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1220706

I honestly think on cup tires, a base 991.2 would be neck and neck with the M4 GTS.

The other thing is, the 911s are far easier to achieve these items. They don’t need to work as hard as the M does (which is why even the 991.1 base was able to beat the M4 around tracks despite the massive deficit in power to weight) and made up in a world class brilliant chassis. And, also over time the 911 will be much more consistent lap after lap where the M will start fade.
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Last edited by Funf6cyl; 07-03-2018 at 08:38 AM..
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      07-03-2018, 11:09 AM   #13
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Why is this even a major question?

I love my m3 but it's a $30k MSRP car with a shit-ton of factory massaging. It's built on a grand-touring-style platform vehicle. The fact that it's relatively close to a 911 on the track is a great testament to what it's been able to accomplish. But a 911 is a shorter wheelbase, lighter weight vehicle starting at a much higher price point and starts off much closer to a dedicated track car.

To be more pithy:
An f8x is a car you can drive to work, haul 3 adults and luggage, and drive to the track.
A 911 is a car you can drive to work, haul 1 adult and 2 small children and practically no luggage, and drive to the track.

And that difference manifests in a more focused track car.
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      07-03-2018, 02:02 PM   #14
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Excellent point, Joe. A base 991.2 with just seat memory and xenon lights as options comes in close to $95k

Comparably optioned m3 is a base car at $65k

Proper comparison for the non GT 911 are other 2 seat or 2+2 sports cars in the $95-$125k range, including viper, z06 and zr1

Comparison with the $65k sports sedan class is just for fun, and shows how much goodness those sedans pack in.

But a few on these boards take 911 vs m3 way too seriously
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      07-03-2018, 02:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
Excellent point, Joe. A base 991.2 with just seat memory and xenon lights as options comes in close to $95k

Comparably optioned m3 is a base car at $65k

Proper comparison for the non GT 911 are other 2 seat or 2+2 sports cars in the $95-$125k range, including viper, z06 and zr1

Comparison with the $65k sports sedan class is just for fun, and shows how much goodness those sedans pack in.

But a few on these boards take 911 vs m3 way too seriously
Bingo. The real that question that most of these Porsche vs M3/M4 threads should be asking is....which Porsche is capable of comfortably hauling four adults plus luggage, is in the $70k price range NEW, and is also trackable if that is your thing? Oh wait, there isn’t one. Comparing a 911 to an M3/M4 is nonsense, though I realize the 911 is a logical aspiring step for many, BUT it is at least 40-50k more similarly equipped.

Realistically there aren’t many cars that fit the description. AMG C63 is more $$, Audi RS5 looks phenomenal but really not designed to be a track tool. What else am I missing? Please don’t say the Macan.

Incidentally, when I had my 991.1 S, I always felt a little overly indulgent driving a $130k two seater around. Also, there just are too few places on public roads to have fun in the thing, the performance window being so broad. At least in the M3/M4, you can hoon a bit between stop lights etc. I smiled more in the M4 than the 991 which says something, plus the M4 is a great value all things considered.

Last edited by blschaefer1; 07-03-2018 at 06:46 PM..
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      07-03-2018, 05:47 PM   #16
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They’d have to be some very very small children with no legs, to fit in the rear seats of a 911
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Road course laptimes for BMW M4 2015 6MT
WHP East Track: 1:04.880, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:54.352
Road course laptimes for Porsche 911 991.1 GTS 7MT
WHP East Track: 1:02.770, Arizona Motorsports Park: 1:48.889

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      07-04-2018, 02:36 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blschaefer1 View Post
The real that question that most of these Porsche vs M3/M4 threads should be asking is....which Porsche is capable of comfortably hauling four adults plus luggage, is in the $70k price range NEW, and is also trackable if that is your thing? Oh wait, there isn’t one.
Macan. I've got a Macan GTS in addition to my F80. Comparably speced, a Macan GTS and an F8X are going to be about the same price. My 2018 F80 was about $10K Cdn less than my 2018 Macan GTS but my F80 is MT and doesn't have that Premiuim and Executive stuff that the Macan has.

I haven't tracked my Macan yet but I have been told that they actually do pretty well. It's no 911 but you could drive one to the track with a passenger, a set of track wheels in the back with room for jack, tools, parts, picnic table, chairs AND a cooler full of beverages. Hell, you could put a portable BBQ in the tow hitch for fun too.
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      07-04-2018, 10:57 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by summilux View Post
Macan. I've got a Macan GTS in addition to my F80. Comparably speced, a Macan GTS and an F8X are going to be about the same price. My 2018 F80 was about $10K Cdn less than my 2018 Macan GTS but my F80 is MT and doesn't have that Premiuim and Executive stuff that the Macan has.

I haven't tracked my Macan yet but I have been told that they actually do pretty well. It's no 911 but you could drive one to the track with a passenger, a set of track wheels in the back with room for jack, tools, parts, picnic table, chairs AND a cooler full of beverages. Hell, you could put a portable BBQ in the tow hitch for fun too.
So in summary, it's smaller, slower, less exciting, but cheaper than the F80 - oh and it looks like a soccer mom's car
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      07-04-2018, 11:09 PM   #19
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So I have a macan gts and a 991.2s with 4ws
.. I had a 2018 m3 zcp with m perf suspension.

My observations:
The macan gts can handle well for an suv... for an suv.. it’s not even in the same league as the m3.. the steering is muted and the pdk programing is junk.. it hesitates during gearshifts even in its fastest setting.

Now my impression of the m3 vs the 991.2s... the 991.2s is in a different league in terms of handling.. it’s smaller more nimble and most importantly able to put the power down better. In terms of straight line speed. From a stop the 991.2s is bonkers fast, no contest. From a roll however, I’ll contend it’s a drivers race.. I have raced a close buddy from a roll and it’s even. A base 991.2 will lose to an m3 from a roll pretty badly. This is both having dual clutches. Mag racing is on thing but I have actually had these cars and have ran them.

The m3 and 911 are brilliant in their own rights ., just meant for difference purposes. I moved on from my m3 because it wasn’t my daily and I wanted more of a sports car. I still love it and miss it.
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      07-05-2018, 08:26 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmmQuattro View Post
So in summary, it's smaller, slower, less exciting, but cheaper than the F80 - oh and it looks like a soccer mom's car
No argument from me, particularly on the less exciting bit but I think that some soccer moms (including the one I'm married to) are going to take their Macan onto a track, which is a good thing.
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      07-05-2018, 08:58 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by summilux View Post
Macan. I've got a Macan GTS in addition to my F80. Comparably speced, a Macan GTS and an F8X are going to be about the same price. My 2018 F80 was about $10K Cdn less than my 2018 Macan GTS but my F80 is MT and doesn't have that Premiuim and Executive stuff that the Macan has.

I haven't tracked my Macan yet but I have been told that they actually do pretty well. It's no 911 but you could drive one to the track with a passenger, a set of track wheels in the back with room for jack, tools, parts, picnic table, chairs AND a cooler full of beverages. Hell, you could put a portable BBQ in the tow hitch for fun too.
As I’ve said, love my Macan GTS. Ive also tracked one and I couldn’t not believe how well it did there and without any issue being pushed very hard.
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      07-05-2018, 12:27 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax85 View Post
So I have a macan gts and a 991.2s with 4ws
.. I had a 2018 m3 zcp with m perf suspension.

My observations:
The macan gts can handle well for an suv... for an suv.. it’s not even in the same league as the m3.. the steering is muted and the pdk programing is junk.. it hesitates during gearshifts even in its fastest setting.

Now my impression of the m3 vs the 991.2s... the 991.2s is in a different league in terms of handling.. it’s smaller more nimble and most importantly able to put the power down better. In terms of straight line speed. From a stop the 991.2s is bonkers fast, no contest. From a roll however, I’ll contend it’s a drivers race.. I have raced a close buddy from a roll and it’s even. A base 991.2 will lose to an m3 from a roll pretty badly. This is both having dual clutches. Mag racing is on thing but I have actually had these cars and have ran them.

The m3 and 911 are brilliant in their own rights ., just meant for difference purposes. I moved on from my m3 because it wasn’t my daily and I wanted more of a sports car. I still love it and miss it.
Finally, an objective post from a person who has experience with all three vehicles. Thank you kind sir.

There are some Macan owners on this forum that clearly have drank a little too much Porsche Kool-aid.
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