Is it me or am I right?

[turbolag]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

I saw a craigslist lease take over ad once in la. It was a 328i msport loaded and msrp was $65k.

An unmodded 328i msport can reach 59k. Add in 4750 for wheels, 3000 for exhaust, 400 for diffuser, 300 for lip, 300 for side decal, stripes, and 3000 for brakes.

fucking god.

[3XTR3M3]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

A 335i performs more or less just as good as an E46 M3, but NO, it doesn't deserve to be called an ///M car.

This is a drastically different comparison, whereas my suggestion is apples to apples.

Here are the main differences. The M3 had a natural, high revving, Inline 6.

The 335i had a low revving turbo inline-6 and made up for the M differences with pretty much more power.

The M235 and the 1M are too identical to ignore. They have very similar (if not identical) power plants, weight, etc. One won't be better than the other based on sheer power as was the difference in the M3 and 335. There is no redline difference, no power difference, no difference in HOW the power is put down, and no weight difference. The differences are mostly aesthetic.

I went from a 335i to an E46 M3. Not many people made that choice but I did because the E46 M3 was THAT much better than the 335i. I'm saying this to let you know how well I acknowledge the difference in the two.

The difference in the 1M and M235 are not this drastic. On paper at least. Making it a more reasonable question as to does the M235 deserve to have the M performance name if it matches the 1M which people call a "real" M car. Not even M2, but just M235.

This is why it's so hard to answer the initial question as opposed to referencing a time when BMW made it's most radical and big change in decades, going from NA engines to Turbo. That's why we arnt seeing "435i is better than E9x M3" topics like we did when the 335i came out and the E46 M3 was still the newest M3. The switch to Turbo from NA happened.

[turbolag]

Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3

This is a drastically different comparison, whereas my suggestion is apples to apples.

Here are the main differences. The M3 had a natural, high revving, Inline 6.

The 335i had a low revving turbo inline-6 and made up for the M differences with pretty much more power.

The M235 and the 1M are too identical to ignore. They have very similar (if not identical) power plants, weight, etc. One won't be better than the other based on sheer power as was the difference in the M3 and 335. There is no redline difference, no power difference, no difference in HOW the power is put down, and no weight difference. The differences are mostly aesthetic.

I went from a 335i to an E46 M3. Not many people made that choice but I did because the E46 M3 was THAT much better than the 335i. I'm saying this to let you know how well I acknowledge the difference in the two.

The difference in the 1M and M235 are not this drastic. On paper at least. Making it a more reasonable question as to does the M235 deserve to have the M performance name if it matches the 1M which people call a "real" M car. Not even M2, but just M235.

This is why it's so hard to answer the initial question as opposed to referencing a time when BMW made it's most radical and big change in decades, going from NA engines to Turbo. That's why we arnt seeing "435i is better than E9x M3" topics like we did when the 335i came out and the E46 M3 was still the newest M3. The switch to Turbo from NA happened.

I'm sorry but 435i = turbo and E9x M3 = NA.

Jut like 335i = turbo and E46 = NA.

[3XTR3M3]

Originally Posted by turbolag

I'm sorry but 435i = turbo and E9x M3 = NA.

Jut like 335i = turbo and E46 = NA.

Don't be sorry, it's not your fault.

Yes, the 435 is a turbo car yet dosnt come close to the E9x M3. Further proving the last generation switch up which went from NA to Turbo to be a huge disadvantage to the past M3, hence having to increase displacement and coming with more cylinders to stay ahead.

High redline Inline 6 vs Twin Turbo Inline 6 is no where near the same as High redline V8 vs Turbo inline 6. You see the difference right?

We will not see such an extraordinary jump in performance like we did when BMW went turbo. Not for a really really long while.

[pkimM3r]

well i think the M235i will be a great car but honestly we will have to wait to see if an M2 comes out...until then you can say its worthy of an M badge or not, but i personally don't think it has the amount of engine/suspension tuning that a (hypothetical) M2 would have.

i would take an m2 in a heartbeart over the m4.

but then again i would need four doors....i think im cursed to stick with an m3 for life....

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3

Don't be sorry, it's not your fault.

Yes, the 435 is a turbo car yet dosnt come close to the E9x M3. Further proving the last generation switch up which went from NA to Turbo to be a huge disadvantage to the past M3, hence having to increase displacement and coming with more cylinders to stay ahead.

High redline Inline 6 vs Twin Turbo Inline 6 is no where near the same as High redline V8 vs Turbo inline 6. You see the difference right?

We will not see such an extraordinary jump in performance like we did when BMW went turbo. Not for a really really long while.

yeah but i thought the m3 went v8 because the e60 already had a v10 that they could utilize no?

[3XTR3M3]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

yeah but i thought the m3 went v8 because the e60 already had a v10 that they could utilize no?

Just my personal opinion here but I think there were a few very good reasons for going with the V8.

1) The twin turbo technology was really unrefined back in 2008. It only had 1 year of life (2007 saw the 335 come to light and 2008 we had to have an M3 already). As we saw with earlier turbo BMWs, there were a ton of issues. Some cars came with no oil cooler (mine got retrofitted), tons of fuel pump issues, etc. It wasnt ready to be in an M car at all, it was BMWs first shot (technically second shot) with turbos and they needed time to refine it.

2) It would be too similar to the new 335 and how much more power were they willing to squeeze out of the new setup to make that gap so big and drive and feel of the engine so aggressive as to call it an M3 or even have that engine last.

3) The DTM series demands 4.0 V8s and they wanted to run in the series.

4) When BMW was dominating the ALMS series with 1-2 wins with the E46 M3, they were running a V8 engine inside them instead of I6s. Porsche was the biggest victim. If BMW wasnt around it would be all Porsche. They pushed regulation which said the engine must be in a production vehicle to be able to run. So BMW produced a low volume and stayed in the race. Then they said it has to be produced X amount and BMW just said fuck it and dropped it til they had the next M3 under their belts. This is all going off of memory so Im sorry if its a little off.

5) M cars had high redlines and put down power unlike its competition. The I6 turbo couldnt do that and still with all the development, still wont hit the 8400 mark in the M4. The V8 created that transition and prepared the fans for "hey guys, we gotta go turbo".


These are the reasons I think they ran with the V8. I think the V10 being sized down was just super convenient to do but I know they wanted to get back to racing. The cool thing is, when they did get back to racing, they started doing REALLY well right from the start. It's pretty impressive.

[pkimM3r]

Not to start shit all over again but....we do have race engines afterall!!!!

Ill still wait on what the s55 could do and could be great. We may think that new tech to decrease lag may suck but who knows what if its awesome? Ill wait till i drive it but i cant stand it when the car doesnt go when you tell it to go.

When are m cars gonna get kers technology??

[aajami]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

well i think the M235i will be a great car but honestly we will have to wait to see if an M2 comes out...until then you can say its worthy of an M badge or not, but i personally don't think it has the amount of engine/suspension tuning that a (hypothetical) M2 would have.

i would take an m2 in a heartbeart over the m4.

but then again i would need four doors....i think im cursed to stick with an m3 for life....

If BMW makes an M2, they may also make an M2 Gran Coupe, which would get you your four doors.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3

This is a drastically different comparison, whereas my suggestion is apples to apples.

Here are the main differences. The M3 had a natural, high revving, Inline 6.

The 335i had a low revving turbo inline-6 and made up for the M differences with pretty much more power.

The M235 and the 1M are too identical to ignore. They have very similar (if not identical) power plants, weight, etc. One won't be better than the other based on sheer power as was the difference in the M3 and 335. There is no redline difference, no power difference, no difference in HOW the power is put down, and no weight difference. The differences are mostly aesthetic.

I went from a 335i to an E46 M3. Not many people made that choice but I did because the E46 M3 was THAT much better than the 335i. I'm saying this to let you know how well I acknowledge the difference in the two.

The difference in the 1M and M235 are not this drastic. On paper at least. Making it a more reasonable question as to does the M235 deserve to have the M performance name if it matches the 1M which people call a "real" M car. Not even M2, but just M235.

This is why it's so hard to answer the initial question as opposed to referencing a time when BMW made it's most radical and big change in decades, going from NA engines to Turbo. That's why we arnt seeing "435i is better than E9x M3" topics like we did when the 335i came out and the E46 M3 was still the newest M3. The switch to Turbo from NA happened.

the only thing in your post I agree with is that the e46 m3 is a better performance car and more exciting than a 335

the 1m and 235i are not in any way "almost identical". the 1m has the m3 widebody, wider suspension track, stiffer suspension components and bushings (make a huge difference), m3 brakes and wheel and tire package. the 235 on the other hand is a sport package 2 series with a LSD bolted on. NOT the same thing at all

personally, I think if you feel that the biggest difference between a regular 3 and an M car is an NA vs turbo engine, you are missing the point

the biggest difference is the suspension and stiffer more planted and immediate feel of the car. that's why despite both being turbo, the m3 will be better than the 335 and the 1m despite being a generation older will drive better than a 235

[ACE_M3]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

the only thing in your post I agree with is that the e46 m3 is a better performance car and more exciting than a 335

the 1m and 235i are not in any way "almost identical". the 1m has the m3 widebody, wider suspension track, stiffer suspension components and bushings (make a huge difference), m3 brakes and wheel and tire package. the 235 on the other hand is a sport package 2 series with a LSD bolted on. NOT the same thing at all

personally, I think if you feel that the biggest difference between a regular 3 and an M car is an NA vs turbo engine, you are missing the point

the biggest difference is the suspension and stiffer more planted and immediate feel of the car. that's why despite both being turbo, the m3 will be better than the 335 and the 1m despite being a generation older will drive better than a 235

All true. The 1M (N54 twin turbo) also has a different engine to the M235i (N55 twinscroll single turbo) and the M235i LSD is an optional extra.

[turbolag]

Originally Posted by ACE_M3

All true. The 1M (N54 twin turbo) also has a different engine to the M235i (N55 twinscroll single turbo) and the M235i LSD is an optional extra.

And it seems that this N54 isn't afflicted with HPFP issues.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3

Just my personal opinion here but I think there were a few very good reasons for going with the V8.

...

3) The DTM series demands 4.0 V8s and they wanted to run in the series.

I'd remove this one from your list; I don't think its legitimate. The DTM P66 shares nothing with the P65, nevermind the S65. The M4 DTM will continue with the P66 despite the production car no longer having a V8 because the production engine is not a factor for DTM. All entries use a 4L V8 including those from Audi and Mercedes.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3

Just my personal opinion here but I think there were a few very good reasons for going with the V8.

1) The twin turbo technology was really unrefined back in 2008. It only had 1 year of life (2007 saw the 335 come to light and 2008 we had to have an M3 already). As we saw with earlier turbo BMWs, there were a ton of issues. Some cars came with no oil cooler (mine got retrofitted), tons of fuel pump issues, etc. It wasnt ready to be in an M car at all, it was BMWs first shot (technically second shot) with turbos and they needed time to refine it.

2) It would be too similar to the new 335 and how much more power were they willing to squeeze out of the new setup to make that gap so big and drive and feel of the engine so aggressive as to call it an M3 or even have that engine last.

3) The DTM series demands 4.0 V8s and they wanted to run in the series.

4) When BMW was dominating the ALMS series with 1-2 wins with the E46 M3, they were running a V8 engine inside them instead of I6s. Porsche was the biggest victim. If BMW wasnt around it would be all Porsche. They pushed regulation which said the engine must be in a production vehicle to be able to run. So BMW produced a low volume and stayed in the race. Then they said it has to be produced X amount and BMW just said fuck it and dropped it til they had the next M3 under their belts. This is all going off of memory so Im sorry if its a little off.

5) M cars had high redlines and put down power unlike its competition. The I6 turbo couldnt do that and still with all the development, still wont hit the 8400 mark in the M4. The V8 created that transition and prepared the fans for "hey guys, we gotta go turbo".


These are the reasons I think they ran with the V8. I think the V10 being sized down was just super convenient to do but I know they wanted to get back to racing. The cool thing is, when they did get back to racing, they started doing REALLY well right from the start. It's pretty impressive.

BMW's decision to return to DTM came many years after the E9X M3 was planned and launched. Back then BMW was involved and focused on F1, so I hardly believe that DTM was a deciding factor.

In fact BMW required that DTM changed it's regulation so that they can use the same race car in different series, also meaning that future engines most likely will be 2l turbo engines:

https://www.facebook.com/notes/bmwbl...s/447078357693

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=380665

So, that was an easy decision, but then we had to think about the immediate future and long-term future, and based on the M3, the discussion of DTM (Deutsche Tourenwagen Masters) came up. So far, we’ve also rejected the idea of re-entering DTM for mainly one reason: it is mainly a German or European series with cars that cannot run anywhere else. Our production car philosophy has always been to design develop a car that can be raced by a works team or customer teams in series’ worldwide.

[Swancoat]

Originally Posted by jbockrd

I've just met too many BMW owners stating they own an "M" and really just getting the M sport trim on the new 3 or 4s. They aren't M cars. Most of them do not even get what the M cars are really about and may cloud the integrity of the true "M" designation. I think its a great marketing tool for BMW to use the M sport prestige to entice buyers at a lower price point, but it clouds the true meaning of the letter M.

Honestly, by the sounds of this post you're complaining about BMW diluting the 'prestige' of the 'M' brand. Who f'ing cares? If you want an M3 so other people think your bada55, go for it. My M3 is debadged because I like it better that way and I don't care for the 'prestige'.

This reminds me of being on E46fanatics back in the day when all the SoCal teenagers with M3s would endlessly post about 'posers' with an 'M' badge on a regular 3 series (even if some of them were just dealership logos, or what have you).

I literally can't believe how much people care about what letter is on the back of their car and what it means. Look at the car. Do you like what it does? Do you like the price? If you do, then buy it. If not, get something else.

If anything is the antithesis of 'M' it's all these clowns wondering if it has enough prestige and brand importance.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Swancoat

Honestly, by the sounds of this post you're complaining about BMW diluting the 'prestige' of the 'M' brand. Who f'ing cares? If you want an M3 so other people think your bada55, go for it. My M3 is debadged because I like it better that way and I don't care for the 'prestige'.

This reminds me of being on E46fanatics back in the day when all the SoCal teenagers with M3s would endlessly post about 'posers' with an 'M' badge on a regular 3 series (even if some of them were just dealership logos, or what have you).

I literally can't believe how much people care about what letter is on the back of their car and what it means. Look at the car. Do you like what it does? Do you like the price? If you do, then buy it. If not, get something else.

If anything is the antithesis of 'M' it's all these clowns wondering if it has enough prestige and brand importance.

Very well said

[pkimM3r]

My m3 > your m3

[turbolag]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

My m3 > your m3

My DCT E90 > your MT E90.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by turbolag

My DCT E90 > your MT E90.

My STOCK 6mt > your modded DCT

[btbossman]

All I can say is if they do indeed make an m2, I would prefer it over an m4...I think.

[turbolag]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

My STOCK 6mt > your modded DCT

Yours is stock? That only makes mine faster.

And mine isn't modded that much...it's not even s/ced yet. And I don't plan to either.

edit: not modded that much compared to powerbeast, radiantm3, those crazy guys

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by turbolag

Yours is stock? That only makes mine faster.

And mine isn't modded that much...it's not even s/ced yet. And I don't plan to either.

edit: not modded that much compared to powerbeast, radiantm3, those crazy guys

Oem exhuast mod (got rid of tp), bpm tune, your usual grills, euro mod bumper, clutch stop, gas pedal extension, oh bpm side marker sticker (1 of 2 cars exclusivity)

Thats pretty much stock

I need an upgraded suspension and ill be happy.....and akra and brembo and etc