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      12-02-2013, 07:01 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgere
Is 26mpg highway? If so than not that impressive if combined, it's about same as my e90
E90 3-Series correct? Or are you saying you have an E90 M3 that gets 26 mpg on the highway?
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      12-02-2013, 07:11 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapper_M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgere
Is 26mpg highway? If so than not that impressive if combined, it's about same as my e90
E90 3-Series correct? Or are you saying you have an E90 M3 that gets 26 mpg on the highway?
Nope, just e90 regular
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      12-02-2013, 07:53 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Cruising on the hwy on the tall 7th gear below boost rpm with a 3 liter engine should save us from gas guzzler tax for sure. It should do + 30 mpg on cruise control at a steady 60 mph. Around town will be another story, that low end grunt some crave will likely produce low to mid teens for the TQ addicts.

I think it will be a lot faster than 4.3s to 60. Likely sub 4s in ideal conditions with launch control.
+1

Torque is a good thing. Pulling in any gear at whatever rpm sounds good to me. Now, having to wait till July of next year to get my car is difficult. I hate the wait.
I concur,- having to wait really sucks... but, maybe much earlier than July?
... if they'll start taking orders sometime in January?
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      12-02-2013, 07:54 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by georgere View Post
Nope, just e90 regular
I think that a car in the neighborhood of a 30%+ power increase that gets similar or better gas mileage is a worthwhile upgrade.
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      12-02-2013, 08:33 PM   #181
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Granted I will not have the torque but I can achieve close to that mileage in what I think ultimately is a better engine from a fun standpoint. I will reserve judgement on that 'til the M3/4 arrives. In other words tho it's a plus, mileage short of 30 mpg is not a selling point for me personally. Particularly when I can get close to that projected number and have (some) fun doing it. Admittedly I'll never have that torque but the car is not lessor for it. IMO
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      12-02-2013, 09:30 PM   #182
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Isn't BMW saying that the 3306 number is in the lightest configuration? Does that mean that the weight is achieved via optioning the lightweight performance seats and carbon ceramic brakes (which together will probably cost about $10k)? As others have said the 80 kg difference between comparably equipped cars is probably the relevant number for true comparison purposes.

Also, on another note not so sure about the car being a 'tuner's dream' is correct. Given all the cooling tech and that adding 30+ extra hp for bragging rights would have been a minor tweak in the software, they decided not to do that. Would seem plausible that not adding more hp was probably due to issues in making consistent power in sustained high performance driving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapper_M3 View Post
Agreed, but if it's even POSSIBLE to spec a 3306 lb M3/M4, it will be a huge victory. I'm cautiously pessimistic (my heart can't take anticipating a 3306 lb vehicle and receiving a 3506 lb vehicle).

As a side note, thinking about the area under torque vs RPM curve is still eating away at me. If we integrate force vs time, do we get work?? Do we need to integrate twice with respect to time in order to find power???
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      12-02-2013, 09:35 PM   #183
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nice, lets see what tuner can do with this..
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      12-02-2013, 09:40 PM   #184
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i see no point in the extra torque if you have to wait for spool....whenever im in the 135i (driving in the city) and i make a turn and then try to gas out, it never happens on time...especially worse if you are in a taller gear as many of us on here say they love.
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      12-02-2013, 09:43 PM   #185
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For people looking for a real world comparison with extremely similar power/weight, chassis enhancements and aerodynamics to the F80 M3/4, need to look no further than the actual results from the E92 M3 GTS. The new M3/M4 should be very close to these performance and track numbers. Also when the GTS came out, BMW quoted a 0-100 km/hr time of 4.4. Thus high 3s 0-60 seems completely reasonable and in line with the simulation estimates.

http://www.nospeedlimit.com/photos/s...tbmwm3gts6.jpg
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      12-02-2013, 10:11 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkim1079 View Post
i see no point in the extra torque if you have to wait for spool....whenever im in the 135i (driving in the city) and i make a turn and then try to gas out, it never happens on time...especially worse if you are in a taller gear as many of us on here say they love.
The original n54 had no lag and many tuned n54's have no lag, so I don't see why we should expect it in the m3 given the news to date.
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      12-02-2013, 10:14 PM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapper_M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgere
Is 26mpg highway? If so than not that impressive if combined, it's about same as my e90
E90 3-Series correct? Or are you saying you have an E90 M3 that gets 26 mpg on the highway?
Well I can get around 25mpg highway in 6th cruising at around 65mph in my m3. Around 22mpg going 80mph
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      12-02-2013, 10:17 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FogCityM3 View Post

Also, on another note not so sure about the car being a 'tuner's dream' is correct. Given all the cooling tech and that adding 30+ extra hp for bragging rights would have been a minor tweak in the software, they decided not to do that. Would seem plausible that not adding more hp was probably due to issues in making consistent power in sustained high performance driving.
Not sure why you think this is the case. Most turbo cars in existence the past 10 years have had a 10-20% horsepower increase with a tune or tune + exhaust (in some cases, 30% with those).

The reason for this is simple: A mass- manufacturer MUST create their car to meet reliability targets, emissions targets, and other operating targets within the wildest possible set of ranges including wild atmospheric conditions and/or questionable fuel. The manufacturer also needs lots of associated parts to handle the stress well.

A tuner typically pushes the envelope a bit more within a narrower set of conditions: Let's say they test air/fuel ratio and EGT and power output within 30-100 degree temps using a consistent 91 or 93 octane quality fuel, within 2000 feet of sea level, etc. They also aren't worried as much about clutch life, diff life, etc.

And they don't need to, in many cases, honor extended CPO warranties of 100k miles on parts like turbos.

I fully expect the m3 to be tunable by 2016 up to 500 crank HP (+70 or less than 20% HP bump). The reason is simple: BMW, by nature, will not be as aggressive as some tuner is willing to go. And they will also leave some room on the table for performance kits.
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      12-02-2013, 10:19 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
The original n54 had no lag and many tuned n54's have no lag, so I don't see why we should expect it in the m3 given the news to date.
no lag?

i've had honest feedback from 1m coupe drivers on their site because I love that car and wanted to get into one before getting the m3....it can be minimized but the lag is still there.
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      12-02-2013, 10:52 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FogCityM3
Isn't BMW saying that the 3306 number is in the lightest configuration? Does that mean that the weight is achieved via optioning the lightweight performance seats and carbon ceramic brakes (which together will probably cost about $10k)? As others have said the 80 kg difference between comparably equipped cars is probably the relevant number for true comparison purposes.

Also, on another note not so sure about the car being a 'tuner's dream' is correct. Given all the cooling tech and that adding 30+ extra hp for bragging rights would have been a minor tweak in the software, they decided not to do that. Would seem plausible that not adding more hp was probably due to issues in making consistent power in sustained high performance driving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapper_M3 View Post
Agreed, but if it's even POSSIBLE to spec a 3306 lb M3/M4, it will be a huge victory. I'm cautiously pessimistic (my heart can't take anticipating a 3306 lb vehicle and receiving a 3506 lb vehicle).

As a side note, thinking about the area under torque vs RPM curve is still eating away at me. If we integrate force vs time, do we get work?? Do we need to integrate twice with respect to time in order to find power???
The 3306 number (if it even turns out to have been achieved at all) will likely be in the most lightweight trim possible, but I'm a pessimist. We'll have to see what happens.

As far as "being a tuner's dream," I've certainly never said that. At this point, I think we still know too little about the engine's capabilities to make a good determination. What you're saying though is certainly plausible (although how likely it is to be true is anyone's guess).
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      12-02-2013, 10:56 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamspeed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapper_M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgere
Is 26mpg highway? If so than not that impressive if combined, it's about same as my e90
E90 3-Series correct? Or are you saying you have an E90 M3 that gets 26 mpg on the highway?
Well I can get around 25mpg highway in 6th cruising at around 65mph in my m3. Around 22mpg going 80mph
What tires are you running? I track with dedicated wheels/tires, so I'm open to suggestions on a setup that will get me this kind of gas mileage.

I'm bone stock, and I struggle to get 22 mpg even on a long roadtrip cruising at 65 mph. In the city, although admittedly I'm heavy on the throttle, I struggle to get 14 mpg.
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      12-02-2013, 10:56 PM   #192
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When I see stock 911 turbos get into overheating issues on the track, think heat is going to be very difficult to manage in a track situation in a tuned car. Yes you may be able to make 500 bhp on lap 1, but by lap 10 you may be making a lot less than that.

Also to the other point, having driven the 1M there is definitely turbo lag. Drove the 1M at the M school and everyone in the class thought the same thing (vs the M3).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Not sure why you think this is the case. Most turbo cars in existence the past 10 years have had a 10-20% horsepower increase with a tune or tune + exhaust (in some cases, 30% with those).

The reason for this is simple: A mass- manufacturer MUST create their car to meet reliability targets, emissions targets, and other operating targets within the wildest possible set of ranges including wild atmospheric conditions and/or questionable fuel. The manufacturer also needs lots of associated parts to handle the stress well.

A tuner typically pushes the envelope a bit more within a narrower set of conditions: Let's say they test air/fuel ratio and EGT and power output within 30-100 degree temps using a consistent 91 or 93 octane quality fuel, within 2000 feet of sea level, etc. They also aren't worried as much about clutch life, diff life, etc.

And they don't need to, in many cases, honor extended CPO warranties of 100k miles on parts like turbos.

I fully expect the m3 to be tunable by 2016 up to 500 crank HP (+70 or less than 20% HP bump). The reason is simple: BMW, by nature, will not be as aggressive as some tuner is willing to go. And they will also leave some room on the table for performance kits.
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      12-03-2013, 12:13 AM   #193
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Thank you for addressing the biggest elephant in the world crammed into a tiny little room. All the hp/torque in the world won't do a thing if your engine system can't handle more than 2 laps. I think this car was designed more for the stop light drag racers, i seriously doubt it can handle motor racing circuits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FogCityM3 View Post
When I see stock 911 turbos get into overheating issues on the track, think heat is going to be very difficult to manage in a track situation in a tuned car. Yes you may be able to make 500 bhp on lap 1, but by lap 10 you may be making a lot less than that.

Also to the other point, having driven the 1M there is definitely turbo lag. Drove the 1M at the M school and everyone in the class thought the same thing (vs the M3).
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      12-03-2013, 12:14 AM   #194
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Disappointing numbers for the European market especially the fuel consumption for countries such as Belgium is a serious let down considering that we will propably be taxed on a CO2 of 260g/km. To illustrate this with an example if I would buy this car on my company I would be personally taxed as the business owner for 600 euro per month. The exact reason I had to sell my Audi Q7 3.0 TFSI in a market that collapsed and it is a disappointment finding out that the M4 has a even higher CO2.

Also a car that claims to have 430HP and a kerb weight of less than 1500KG but still needs 4.3 secs for a sprint from 0 to 60 mph is a disappointment.
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      12-03-2013, 01:34 AM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kavehm View Post
Thank you for addressing the biggest elephant in the world crammed into a tiny little room. All the hp/torque in the world won't do a thing if your engine system can't handle more than 2 laps. I think this car was designed more for the stop light drag racers, i seriously doubt it can handle motor racing circuits.
It's been a while since a factory-stock BMW could handle motor racing circuits, my M3's engine oil temp needle starts swinging to the right after just a few minutes of hard driving on the street, forget about actual track use. The brakes also get hot very quickly since there aren't any brake cooling ducts.

If you want to get an M3 (of any generation) for track use, knock yourself out, but it seems silly to me to buy a car this big and loaded with this much tech and luxury and expect it to be a track weapon without a serious amount of work. The 911 GT cars are pretty much the only cars you can take from the dealership straight to the race track (ask Jeff Zwart who drove a stock GT2 RS to Pikes Peak and then raced it up the mountain, there was also a GT3 RS that competed in the Nurburgring 24 Hours and did very well) any thing else is going to do a few laps at the hands of a serious driver before the motor, brakes, and tires are begging for a cool down lap.
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      12-03-2013, 01:50 AM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N1MBL3 View Post
Disappointing numbers for the European market especially the fuel consumption for countries such as Belgium is a serious let down considering that we will propably be taxed on a CO2 of 260g/km. To illustrate this with an example if I would buy this car on my company I would be personally taxed as the business owner for 600 euro per month. The exact reason I had to sell my Audi Q7 3.0 TFSI in a market that collapsed and it is a disappointment finding out that the M4 has a even higher CO2.

Also a car that claims to have 430HP and a kerb weight of less than 1500KG but still needs 4.3 secs for a sprint from 0 to 60 mph is a disappointment.
The spec sheet in the article quoted in the OP clearly says "sub 200g/km CO2", where do you have the 260 number from?
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      12-03-2013, 02:35 AM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
The original n54 had no lag and many tuned n54's have no lag, so I don't see why we should expect it in the m3 given the news to date.
That is a massive exaggeration. All turbo cars have some lag, and the N54 has plenty. Tuned or not.
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      12-03-2013, 02:37 AM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kavehm View Post
Thank you for addressing the biggest elephant in the world crammed into a tiny little room. All the hp/torque in the world won't do a thing if your engine system can't handle more than 2 laps. I think this car was designed more for the stop light drag racers, i seriously doubt it can handle motor racing circuits.
Well it is a luxury GT for the wealthy masses, do you really expect it to be a stonking track machine?!! Come on, get real
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