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      12-03-2013, 02:58 AM   #199
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Disagree. With fluid swap and a pad change, M3s on the track do quite well vs other cars, even "rough on brakes" tracks such as Laguna Seca. Also if driven properly using the right line, brake and tire wear really aren't that bad. PSS's aren't optimal for best times, but still can be driven on fairly effectively, if you know what you're doing.

Don't see the same for many turbo cars on the track, such as 997 porsches, which do see limp mode issues.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
It's been a while since a factory-stock BMW could handle motor racing circuits, my M3's engine oil temp needle starts swinging to the right after just a few minutes of hard driving on the street, forget about actual track use. The brakes also get hot very quickly since there aren't any brake cooling ducts.

If you want to get an M3 (of any generation) for track use, knock yourself out, but it seems silly to me to buy a car this big and loaded with this much tech and luxury and expect it to be a track weapon without a serious amount of work. The 911 GT cars are pretty much the only cars you can take from the dealership straight to the race track (ask Jeff Zwart who drove a stock GT2 RS to Pikes Peak and then raced it up the mountain, there was also a GT3 RS that competed in the Nurburgring 24 Hours and did very well) any thing else is going to do a few laps at the hands of a serious driver before the motor, brakes, and tires are begging for a cool down lap.
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      12-03-2013, 06:55 AM   #200
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The 0-60 time of 4.3 seconds is very conservative imo. The heavier and less powerful Alpina B3 Bi-turbo does 0-62 in 4.2s says this TG review. And mind, it is to 62! http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/a...ive-2013-08-01
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      12-03-2013, 08:57 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
In the end I believe I am a fan, but certainly not a fanboy.
Fans are good.
Fanboys are bad. They usually have their eyes and ears shut, and their ideas and believes are hard-wired into the brain.

OT: Religious fanboys are called extremists, and bad cases become terrorists.
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      12-03-2013, 09:23 AM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
It's been a while since a factory-stock BMW could handle motor racing circuits, my M3's engine oil temp needle starts swinging to the right after just a few minutes of hard driving on the street, forget about actual track use. The brakes also get hot very quickly since there aren't any brake cooling ducts.

If you want to get an M3 (of any generation) for track use, knock yourself out, but it seems silly to me to buy a car this big and loaded with this much tech and luxury and expect it to be a track weapon without a serious amount of work. The 911 GT cars are pretty much the only cars you can take from the dealership straight to the race track (ask Jeff Zwart who drove a stock GT2 RS to Pikes Peak and then raced it up the mountain, there was also a GT3 RS that competed in the Nurburgring 24 Hours and did very well) any thing else is going to do a few laps at the hands of a serious driver before the motor, brakes, and tires are begging for a cool down lap.
Have you ever taken your M3 to the track

Because it seems you have no clue about what you are talking about ...

My E92 M3 has seen 5 seasons of track use at the rate of 18-20 days per season. Never had any overheating issues except on the two occasions I forgot the A/C on on very hot days. Turning off the A/C immediately resolved the issue. As for brakes, I only swapped the pads with everything else stock (including the fluid) any never had any brake issue. Same story with my E46 M3 that saw track duty for 7 years .

The M3 is wonderful multi purpose machine. Drive it to work, bring the wife and friends to dinner, fold down the rear seats and transport big merchandise, go for a romp in the twisties, take it on road trips and go to track days. All with one car. This flexibililty is the reason I have owned M3s for the last 12 years .
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      12-03-2013, 09:41 AM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FogCityM3 View Post
Disagree. With fluid swap and a pad change, M3s on the track do quite well vs other cars, even "rough on brakes" tracks such as Laguna Seca. Also if driven properly using the right line, brake and tire wear really aren't that bad. PSS's aren't optimal for best times, but still can be driven on fairly effectively, if you know what you're doing.

Don't see the same for many turbo cars on the track, such as 997 porsches, which do see limp mode issues.
don't agree with the last part at all, plenty of people track Pcar turbos down here in texas as well as myself, and temps were ROCK solid with zero issues. that thing is a monster, and has great OEM brakes.

that said, the m3 is a blast on the track and IMO more manageable and fun. I too hope the next gen m3 is robust enough for the track, and has better brakes that are easier to swap pads in and out of.
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      12-03-2013, 09:42 AM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Have you ever taken your M3 to the track

Because it seems you have no clue about what you are talking about ...

My E92 M3 has seen 5 seasons of track use at the rate of 18-20 days per season. Never had any overheating issues except on the two occasions I forgot the A/C on on very hot days. Turning off the A/C immediately resolved the issue. As for brakes, I only swapped the pads with everything else stock (including the fluid) any never had any brake issue. Same story with my E46 M3 that saw track duty for 7 years .

The M3 is wonderful multi purpose machine. Drive it to work, bring the wife and friends to dinner, fold down the rear seats and transport big merchandise, go for a romp in the twisties, take it on road trips and go to track days. All with one car. This flexibililty is the reason I have owned M3s for the last 12 years .
good post, agree completely. if you need to own only one car, and like to track, the m3 is tough to beat!
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      12-03-2013, 11:52 AM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SROC5 View Post
They (BMW) should know very well, the competition for this car is well into the sub 4s already with sub 12 1/4 mile times, and to keep up they'll have to at least match that number + be more than average on the track.
BMW will not advertise nor print in any of their manuals that the M3/M4 is a sub 4 seconds 0-60mph car. That's, in effect, what's included in Biermanns' "hint."
My takeaway from the Biermann interview is this: he knows that when BMW officially puts a 0 to 60 performance number out there what it means is, any customer can go into any dealership, pick out any M3/M4 on the lot, go to the local drag strip, get a firm grip on the wheel, step on the gas and achieve the advertised performance number. That's a pretty high bar and its, probably, got to happen better than 90% of the time it's tried. Anything less is going to affect reputation and sales.
The car has probably been tested many times and found to achieve a range of 0 to 60 results. My guess is, he went with the one that best fits the criteria above.
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      12-03-2013, 12:12 PM   #206
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I've got to think that the lighter, noticeably more powerful F80 will be achieving improved 0-60 times.

These are the current numbers for the 2013 C63 AMG, from Car and Driver:

"Our best time—0 to 60 in 3.7 seconds—came without making use of the 'Race Start' launch-control setting. Use launch control, and you get a very repeatable 0-to-60 time of 3.9 seconds" - C63 (Standard)

Current numbers for the 2013 M3, also from Car and Driver:

"[The] M3’s all-out 0-to-60 time [was] 4.3 seconds." - M3

0-60 times are fun to talk about but there are far more important performance metrics.
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      12-03-2013, 12:19 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
It's been a while since a factory-stock BMW could handle motor racing circuits, my M3's engine oil temp needle starts swinging to the right after just a few minutes of hard driving on the street, forget about actual track use. The brakes also get hot very quickly since there aren't any brake cooling ducts.

If you want to get an M3 (of any generation) for track use, knock yourself out, but it seems silly to me to buy a car this big and loaded with this much tech and luxury and expect it to be a track weapon without a serious amount of work. The 911 GT cars are pretty much the only cars you can take from the dealership straight to the race track (ask Jeff Zwart who drove a stock GT2 RS to Pikes Peak and then raced it up the mountain, there was also a GT3 RS that competed in the Nurburgring 24 Hours and did very well) any thing else is going to do a few laps at the hands of a serious driver before the motor, brakes, and tires are begging for a cool down lap.
Have you ever taken your M3 to the track

Because it seems you have no clue about what you are talking about ...

My E92 M3 has seen 5 seasons of track use at the rate of 18-20 days per season. Never had any overheating issues except on the two occasions I forgot the A/C on on very hot days. Turning off the A/C immediately resolved the issue. As for brakes, I only swapped the pads with everything else stock (including the fluid) any never had any brake issue. Same story with my E46 M3 that saw track duty for 7 years .

The M3 is wonderful multi purpose machine. Drive it to work, bring the wife and friends to dinner, fold down the rear seats and transport big merchandise, go for a romp in the twisties, take it on road trips and go to track days. All with one car. This flexibililty is the reason I have owned M3s for the last 12 years .
Are you talking about taking it on a track day or actually competing with it? I'm talking about driving it at a semi-pro level.

Any car can survive a regular track day, most amateur drivers won't be able to drive fast enough to really get it too hot but that's not what I'm talking about. I think F80 will be similar to E90 in terms of surviving a track day but of course the motor will be more difficult to keep cool, some people are posting things as if the E90 was ready to win Le Mans straight off the dealership lot though and I think that is crazy.
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      12-03-2013, 12:40 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
The spec sheet in the article quoted in the OP clearly says "sub 200g/km CO2", where do you have the 260 number from?
I first convertered the mpg to l/km and then calculated the Co2
(fuel consumption in L/100km) * 2392 g/L / 100.

Maybe I did the conversion to l/km incorrectly?

To calculate the monthly cost (in Dutch):
http://www.voordeelalleaardberekenen.be
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      12-03-2013, 01:40 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N1MBL3 View Post
I first convertered the mpg to l/km and then calculated the Co2
(fuel consumption in L/100km) * 2392 g/L / 100.

Maybe I did the conversion to l/km incorrectly?

To calculate the monthly cost (in Dutch):
http://www.voordeelalleaardberekenen.be
The CO2 was given in the spec sheet, so was the fuel consumption in l/100km.

Anyway, the fuel consumption was quoted at 9,1L/100km and according to the formula you used that would give a calculated (not necesarily correct) CO2 of 217g/km.
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      12-03-2013, 01:49 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuddman View Post
BMW will not advertise nor print in any of their manuals that the M3/M4 is a sub 4 seconds 0-60mph car. That's, in effect, what's included in Biermanns' "hint."
My takeaway from the Biermann interview is this: he knows that when BMW officially puts a 0 to 60 performance number out there what it means is, any customer can go into any dealership, pick out any M3/M4 on the lot, go to the local drag strip, get a firm grip on the wheel, step on the gas and achieve the advertised performance number. That's a pretty high bar and its, probably, got to happen better than 90% of the time it's tried. Anything less is going to affect reputation and sales.
The car has probably been tested many times and found to achieve a range of 0 to 60 results. My guess is, he went with the one that best fits the criteria above.
I see your point, as long as real-world editorial tests read 3.5s - 3.7s / sub 12 1/4 miles + praise for being a the "best" daily GT / Sports car again (track, work, duties etc.), she'll be in the clear from a paper performance perspective. I'm concerned that the competition really has sharpened their pencils this time to attack the M3/M4, it should be a close match...as opposed to the E92 M3 era where it held onto its reign for a couple years "bar none" before others started to catch up...so much so that if you didn't get an M3 back in 2010 - 11, and you were looking for the best all-arounder GT/Sports car for sub $80k, you bought wrong. I hope the M3/M4 keeps that spirit alive!
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      12-03-2013, 02:41 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
The CO2 was given in the spec sheet, so was the fuel consumption in l/100km.

Anyway, the fuel consumption was quoted at 9,1L/100km and according to the formula you used that would give a calculated (not necesarily correct) CO2 of 217g/km.
If the official CO2 will be less than 200g/km I will be with the first batch of people in Belgium that will order it.
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      12-03-2013, 03:37 PM   #212
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Does Biermann's estimated 0-60 apply to the manual transmission?

The DCT should be faster by a couple of tenths.
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      12-03-2013, 04:23 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
...some people are posting things as if the E90 was ready to win Le Mans straight off the dealership lot though and I think that is crazy.
Who ever said that

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
Are you talking about taking it on a track day or actually competing with it? I'm talking about driving it at a semi-pro level.
There is not a single car that comes out of the dealer showroom that is race ready

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
Any car can survive a regular track day, most amateur drivers won't be able to drive fast enough to really get it too hot but that's not what I'm talking about.
I agree that beginners will not get even close to the limits of the cars, but advanced drivers will. And no, there are very few car out there that can endure track days as well as an M3 in stock form (or with very minor mods).

Last edited by CanAutM3; 12-03-2013 at 05:08 PM..
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      12-03-2013, 05:03 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Who ever said that



There is not a single car that comes out of the dealer showroom that is race ready



I agree that beginners will not get even close to the limits of the cars, but advanced drivers will. And no, there are very few car out there that can endure track days as well an as M3 in stock form (or with very minor mods).


I was about to post a similar response; glad you did the legwork for me.

Who assumes "semi-pro" racing when people are mentioning "track use"? And if, for some outlandish reason, this is what he assumed by "track use," which stock production cars are out there "race ready"? Is there any legitimate racing organization that lets people race wheel to wheel (I'm excluding autocross, etc. here for obvious reasons) without a rollcage...? The rollcage requirement alone brings the list of stock production cars down to 0.

If the response to that is, "Well I meant semi-pro racing ready except for the rollcage!" where does this slippery slope end? If you're going to strip a car out and install a roll-cage to do "semi-pro" racing, you're going to upgrade engine cooling, brake cooling, et cetera.
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      12-03-2013, 05:15 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Who ever said that



There is not a single car that comes out of the dealer showroom that is race ready
GT3 w/ Michelin Pilot Cup Sport tires
Z06 w/ Carbon package

You can literally drive off the dealer lot onto a race with these cars.
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      12-03-2013, 05:17 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
GT3 w/ Michelin Pilot Cup Sport tires
Z06 w/ Carbon package

You can literally drive off the dealer lot onto a race with these cars.
With which sanctioning body?
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      12-03-2013, 05:19 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapper_M3 View Post
The rollcage requirement alone brings the list of stock production cars down to 0.
M3 GTS and 911 GT3 came with a roll cage (or at least behind the front seats). But that is probably not the point here. I suspect that neither of those would be eligible for any race series in showroom condition.
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      12-03-2013, 05:23 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapper_M3 View Post
The rollcage requirement alone brings the list of stock production cars down to 0.
M3 GTS and 911 GT3 came with a roll cage (or at least behind the front seats)
I don't know of any racing classes in any organization that allow half cages, but someone correct me if I'm wrong. I admit I don't know of every racing class in every racing organization in the world. I would find it hard to consider any racing league that allowed wheel to wheel racing without a full cage though to be legitimate.
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      12-03-2013, 05:26 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapper_M3 View Post
I don't know of any racing classes in any organization that allow half cages, but someone correct me if I'm wrong. I admit I don't know of every racing class in every racing organization in the world. I would find it hard to consider any racing league that allowed wheel to wheel racing without a full cage though to be legitimate.
Obviously apart from drag racing... Where you are allowed to race in some classes without a cage.

PS. I added what you also said in your reply in my previous post. You quoted me before I got finished adding that last bit
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      12-03-2013, 05:29 PM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapper_M3 View Post
I don't know of any racing classes in any organization that allow half cages, but someone correct me if I'm wrong. I admit I don't know of every racing class in every racing organization in the world. I would find it hard to consider any racing league that allowed wheel to wheel racing without a full cage though to be legitimate.
Obviously apart from drag racing... Where you are allowed to race in some classes without a cage.

PS. I added what you also said in your reply in my previous post. You quoted me before I got finished adding that last bit
True--autocross, relatively slow class drag racing, and the like should be excluded. To be accurate, I suppose we should have entered into this conversation stating "road course car racing" although I doubt there was too much confusion, given the context of the situation.

Haha, and sorry for quoting you before the edit! I'm avoiding accomplishing actual work right now, and as a result I'm replying to some of these pretty quickly.
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