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      12-24-2021, 03:31 PM   #1
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Puff of smoke on cold start

Few things to get us started:

'15 M4 ~70k miles now
Pure Stage 2+ (~1500 miles on them maybe)
VRSF catless downpipes
VRSF single mid
F80Paul flex-fuel tune for E50 (currently running E50)
Bend Calibration ultimate flex-fuel kit

Juuust started to notice this happening on the very cold first start of the day and/or after sitting for longer periods of time. Doesn't seem to happen if it's a few hours - seems to be like.. overnight.

It doesn't immediately puff out smoke, but after a few seconds I get a little cloud and that's usually it. It blows on by the car and then it's done. Trying to toss little revs/etc doesn't generate any additional smoke. It's not a giant cloud, but it's quite noticeable.

I spoke with my local shop, who recommended I talk to Paul (which I have) but I wanted to go ahead and make the thread in case this ended up being helpful for someone else later.

Once I run through this E50 i'm going to bump down to 93 and see if it still happens on pump, and if so, i'll try an OTS map for a baseline to see if they all smoke. Then we can eliminate tuning as a variable and point to a hardware issue somewhere.

Smokey idle: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61c4...0b434070142401
Not smokey idle: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61c5...0b433febe9deb0

Cloud is.. grey-ish. Definitely not white, not super dark, so it feels like it's maybe oil? I continue to check the oil level and it's fine every single time.
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      12-24-2021, 03:36 PM   #2
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Also, I wanted to see if the vehicle smoked under any other conditions and never smokes under normal driving but under hard, upper rpm load it definitely blows out smoke.

Is this an appropriate level of smoke? I find the color to be a little odd if it was due to rich conditions. Being an E50 tune it's really not rich either, we're looking at like 13:1 here lambdas.

3-4 log: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61b2...90c622f326e001

Exhaust idle, few highway pulls


All feels like maybe a little oil leak to me, but i'm surprised that the oil level always registers as totally full.
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      12-24-2021, 06:06 PM   #3
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Well I started from the top of other known issues and went here first:



Lookin a little below the normal levels huh. So I got out the borescope and popped it in through the vacuum port on the back of the intercooler and poked around a bit.

There were a couple weird/rusty looking fins but otherwise didn't see any white deposits or anything too odd in the top end.

I did come across what looks like a crack in the plastic end tank, but I don't see how that could be causing a leak.


Since I didn't see much I went lower into the j-pipe and did finally find a few white spots/deposits inside. Feels like at the very least, I have a slow coolant leak.
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      12-25-2021, 12:01 PM   #4
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same thing happened to me. the turbo oil seals had worn out and needed to be rebuilt.
Look on the RH side of your engine bay at your turbos and see if you see any oil dripping off the turbos.
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      12-25-2021, 03:49 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by behindthen0thing View Post
same thing happened to me. the turbo oil seals had worn out and needed to be rebuilt.
Look on the RH side of your engine bay at your turbos and see if you see any oil dripping off the turbos.
Thanks - I took a quick look and nothing looked out of place, but I'll at least get underneath and pull the passenger intake and have a better look. I got pretty distracted with the coolant being low and then never returned back to looking at the turbos. I did see your thread though and sounds very similar.

I'd be pretty disappointed if the seals were already worn/bad on the Pures, but shit happens I guess.
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      12-25-2021, 05:12 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heitzke View Post
Thanks - I took a quick look and nothing looked out of place, but I'll at least get underneath and pull the passenger intake and have a better look. I got pretty distracted with the coolant being low and then never returned back to looking at the turbos. I did see your thread though and sounds very similar.

I'd be pretty disappointed if the seals were already worn/bad on the Pures, but shit happens I guess.
Can you smell what the smoke smells like?
Mine smelled like burning oil. The smell is unmistakable.
It's possible you could be looking at a few different things. Mine would smoke after sitting for a while, on the first start.
Wouldn't smoke during driving.
It progressively got worse.
In my case i saw oil dripping from the turbos eventually.

You might want to pop the charge pipes off and see if theres a ton of oil.
It;s somewhat common to see oil in the front charge pipe because it has to do with the PCV system.
Anyway, you might want to have a catch can if you don't already have one.

It could be water vapor, running rich, or oil for some reason.
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      12-27-2021, 12:14 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by behindthen0thing View Post
Can you smell what the smoke smells like?
Mine smelled like burning oil. The smell is unmistakable.
It's possible you could be looking at a few different things. Mine would smoke after sitting for a while, on the first start.
Wouldn't smoke during driving.
It progressively got worse.
In my case i saw oil dripping from the turbos eventually.

You might want to pop the charge pipes off and see if theres a ton of oil.
It;s somewhat common to see oil in the front charge pipe because it has to do with the PCV system.
Anyway, you might want to have a catch can if you don't already have one.

It could be water vapor, running rich, or oil for some reason.
I haven't gotten a good smell of the smoke since it hasn't happened in a few days now. It really hangs/lingers in the air until a breeze blows it away though, so i'll get it next time.

I disassembled the whole intake tract yesterday to inspect everything, all charge pipes look entirely clean through out. J-pipe had a little oily/muddy residue sitting in the very bottom of the "J" and both intakes were totally clean (as I'd expect).

Catch can also continues to be clean minus water vapor/moisture that collects. Always smells a little "fuel-ish" but assume it's just a tiny mixture of oil and water.

Turbos all look totally clean themselves, underneath and around them so i'm kind of stumped.

Paul suggests that I may have a slightly leaky fuel injector, which could explain some of it - but still curious as wouldn't it happen all the time if it were consistently leaking? Based on the logs I sent him, even at idle the fuel trims deviate after a while so something might be leaking?

I do hate throwing parts at an issue and seeing how it ends up, especially if we're adding potential variables. I would/could use this as a reason to do the S63 injectors, but then i'm right back into the retuning process on top of what might be another issue.
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      12-27-2021, 03:58 PM   #8
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Three things I'd check;

1. Once you come home and shut off car, turn ignition on, open log and monitor your HPFP or rail pressure. If you have a leaky injector, the pressure over time in the rail will drop by several hundred for sure. Write down pressure on shutdown then come back an hour or two later or next morning and turn ignition on, start log to view rail pressure without starting car.

2. Inspect plugs tips and see which one is wet or smells like raw fuel, if wet or smelly, then you know that cylinder probably has a bad injector.

3. Drain a quart or so of oil and see if oil smells like fuel.

If you injector is failing open, it will drip drip drip causing the puff of smoke on start up and lower rail pressure. Is your car taking longer to crank/start? That's also an indication of lower rail pressure/spark blow out on start up due to raw fuel.

Hope this helps you out bro and keep us posted. You're doing a good job troubleshooting.

Based on what I mentioned above, that's how I found one on my Audi.
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      01-05-2022, 01:00 PM   #9
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Quick update here. No detectable leak within the intercooler when I actually got everything apart. Used it as an excuse to install a J-pipe. I used a CTS pipe and the fitment was actually.. kinda tough, but that's neither here nor there.

J-pipe looked spotless with the exception of a tiny oil smudge in the bottom of it, which I assume is mostly vacuum related from the port on the side.

Logs all seem really normal on the fuel pressure side too. It's never hard to start. Also interesting is the smoke doesn't always start immediately. I left the driveway yesterday and then pulled out onto the street when I saw a big cloud behind me, but all totally fine before. Car drives fine in all conditions and doesn't smoke when out driving around normally.

I tossed a GoPro on the bumper to video for a while and all looks totally fine until we get to WOT/full boost. That's when I get a trail of slightly lighter colored smoke (at least from what I can tell). Possibly a combination of water vapor and oil?

Doing more research and digging suggests that the next logical path is to pull the downpipes and see if there's anything more internal that's visible.

Also interesting is the oil level continues to be totally full, so it's a minimal amount of burn right now, so it's quite hard to troubleshoot.

Will update the thread as I learn more and move forward.
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      01-05-2022, 02:19 PM   #10
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Could just be condensation from running E85. I've also seen temperature move to dew-point and things get damp too. If either collect in your exhaust you'll get steam cooking off.

Try taking an old clean dry cotton t-shirt cut into 4 quarters. Fold each into a couple layers and rubber band a pad over each exhaust tip. Do a morning start and quickly go check the tips. If it's only dew or water condensate the rag will be clean, damp, and not stinky. If there's any color or smell (from oil smoke or whatever) the rags should grab it.
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      01-06-2022, 08:02 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TopJimmy View Post
Could just be condensation from running E85. I've also seen temperature move to dew-point and things get damp too. If either collect in your exhaust you'll get steam cooking off.

Try taking an old clean dry cotton t-shirt cut into 4 quarters. Fold each into a couple layers and rubber band a pad over each exhaust tip. Do a morning start and quickly go check the tips. If it's only dew or water condensate the rag will be clean, damp, and not stinky. If there's any color or smell (from oil smoke or whatever) the rags should grab it.
That's brilliant Jimmy!
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      01-06-2022, 10:40 PM   #12
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Totally agree - thanks for the suggestion. I just did that and the rags were all pretty smelly tbh. Damp for sure, but the ones from the left two tips really reeked. Hard to discern the smell exactly but definitely like burnt... something.

Here's how the cloud hangs in the air too. Looks more white here in the light than usual, but usually pretty grey/blue.

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      01-07-2022, 08:50 AM   #13
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Yeah, that's not steam. Gotta get it looked at. I'd start with a leak down test to see if you cracked a piston ring or something.
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      01-07-2022, 09:31 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TopJimmy View Post
Yeah, that's not steam. Gotta get it looked at. I'd start with a leak down test to see if you cracked a piston ring or something.
Glad I finally caught one on video last night.

Yeah i'm in the same place right now. It's not getting worse, but has remained pretty consistently just like that. Absolutely zero oil consumption (aside from whatever burns from that cloud).

I check the oil level every single day when I get back in from being out and always good. I keep imagining that if it were rotating assembly related that i'd smoke under other scenarios or conditions and it just... doesn't.

Currently snowed in through at least Saturday, but i'll get a chance to dig in more next week
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      01-09-2022, 12:11 PM   #15
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you can also remove an O2 sensor and put a borescope in to see if you have oil in the exhaust.
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      01-09-2022, 12:45 PM   #16
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On the driving one you can clearly see that is water.

These exhaust systems hold a TON of condensation in em. Especially certain times of the year. Mine smokes just like that if not worse.
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      01-09-2022, 01:02 PM   #17
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What about disconnecting the exhaust? It's it that hard to disconnect the exhaust mounts and flange and leave it on the ground under the car. Next morning start it up with just the DPs while a buddy watches underneath. You should know one way or the other, and it just costs a little time and one set of flange gaskets.
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      01-09-2022, 05:15 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by behindthen0thing View Post
you can also remove an O2 sensor and put a borescope in to see if you have oil in the exhaust.
Also a good idea, I have a nice long lighted borescope that would be able to tell pretty far upstreadm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twistm4 View Post
On the driving one you can clearly see that is water.

These exhaust systems hold a TON of condensation in em. Especially certain times of the year. Mine smokes just like that if not worse.
Ok noted, thank you. I've read that anecdotally but never really experienced quite that much in any other vehicle i've owned. I assume the fuel content has something to do with it as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TopJimmy View Post
What about disconnecting the exhaust? It's it that hard to disconnect the exhaust mounts and flange and leave it on the ground under the car. Next morning start it up with just the DPs while a buddy watches underneath. You should know one way or the other, and it just costs a little time and one set of flange gaskets.
Also a good idea. I think collectively we're getting pretty close here and narrowing down the list of variables now.

Current suspicion still focuses on one of the turbos themselves. I wouldn't even be all that concerned, but knowing I have a warranty with the units and also don't want it to get any worse (or end up really ruining a turbo) I'm wiling to go through the hassle this ends up being.

Also, knowing that i'm trying to eventually push the envelope a *little* further with EU5 and the Dorch kit, I want to make sure all hardware is in good working order.
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      01-10-2022, 12:18 PM   #19
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Talked it over with the shop I had do the turbo install, and we're all thinking the same thing now of a potentially leaky seal that seeps overnight, pools, and then once the manifold/turbo gets hot enough *poof* it pops out the oil cloud.

I'm going to go head and take it down there Thursday and see where we land. Given the units are warrantied still, I want an "official" shop to do the diagnosis so I don't run into any trouble with Pure if it does end up being a turbo hardware issue.

Not ideal, but this is the game right?
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      01-13-2022, 09:40 AM   #20
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Just dropped the car off and fingers-crossed on it being turbo-related. Only other thing we talked about being a potential is an ever-so-slightly bent rod.

Could smoke until the engine is warm enough for tolerances to tighten up and the smoke stops. Unless i'm missing something that logic checks out for me, but I'd also rather not put that out into the universe

Edit:



Backing plate on the rear turbo is looking quite quite oily for something with 2500 miles on it. Looks like we may have it targeted.

Edit edit - yeah the rear turbo has a bunch of shaft play. Just talked to the shop again and they're in contact with Pure on the next steps and what to do from here. About to go pick the car back up now and I guess we're waiting to see what's up.

Good news here is that presumably nothing is internally damaged anywhere, just the hassle of a new turbo having problems.
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      01-13-2022, 05:33 PM   #21
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I'm hoping this thread ends up being useful for someone at some point so i'll keep adding on here.

This is what the cold start is looking like right now:
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      01-13-2022, 06:30 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heitzke View Post
I'm hoping this thread ends up being useful for someone at some point so i'll keep adding on here.

This is what the cold start is looking like right now:
They probably told you that something is wrong with your engines and it messed up the turbos.
Don't let them BS you into that.
I'm sure they will take care of you regardless.
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