M3/M4 vs. Tesla Model 3 Performance

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by E46M54325Ci

Interesting...tire rack shows the OE as 500...maybe they ran out of supplies and with with the standard spec to get the cars out the door. Do they have the Tesla TO Acoustic Tech symbols?

Tirerack could have bad data...

Sidewall says 235/35ZR20 92Y extra load. 300 treadwear. Does have "TO" letters but not any headphones symbol.

[Gavyne]

Motor Trends review, they had Randy Pobst do laps on Jaguar I-PACE, Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio, and Performance Model 3.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/alfa...-romeo-giulia/

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by Gavyne

Motor Trends review, they had Randy Pobst do laps on Jaguar I-PACE, Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio, and Performance Model 3.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/alfa...-romeo-giulia/

I saw this review this MT Figure Eight and Willow times for the M3/4 are faster than the Model 3...but just! This Model 3 is quite the car!

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by E46M54325Ci

I saw this review this MT Figure Eight and Willow times for the M3/4 are faster than the Model 3...but just! This Model 3 is quite the car!

Make sure you aren't comparing Big Willow and Streets of Willow times. I know for sure Randy P lapped Big Willow in stock m3/m4 but I'm not sure about streets.

I thought that was an interesting article in terms of how quickly the R tires on the Alfa were wearing, vs the PS4 street tires and the Tesla engineer statement of being able to match the Alfa if similar tires were used.

Would have been nice to see an m3 CS using its optional PSS street tires thrown into that mix.

Also interesting are the electronic niggles found in both ipace and Tesla. That's a bit more of a bummer since there are no easy fixes for that (other than hopefully continuing updates to the "track mode" software)

[fusionchicken]

faster than a Mustang performance pack 2 around the track that's impressive. The Stang has a square 305 cup 2 tire set up lol

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by fusionchicken

faster than a Mustang performance pack 2 around the track that's impressive. The Stang has a square 305 cup 2 tire set up lol

Actually, it was Mustang PP1 (not 2), which has the PS4 street tires that they compared the model 3 to

check out this article

apparently, the PP2 with the cup 2 tires is 2.5-3.0s faster than the PP1 (putting the mustang in the 1:20.xx range), and the Camaro SS 1LE is also in the 1:20.xx range

My secondary take away is that for a 500hp super sedan with R tires, the Alfa comes off as a bit unimpressive for being slower than 2 pony cars... and needing a tire advantage to stay in front of an EV.....

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Make sure you aren't comparing Big Willow and Streets of Willow times. I know for sure Randy P lapped Big Willow in stock m3/m4 but I'm not sure about streets.

I thought that was an interesting article in terms of how quickly the R tires on the Alfa were wearing, vs the PS4 street tires and the Tesla engineer statement of being able to match the Alfa if similar tires were used.

Would have been nice to see an m3 CS using its optional PSS street tires thrown into that mix.

Also interesting are the electronic niggles found in both ipace and Tesla. That's a bit more of a bummer since there are no easy fixes for that (other than hopefully continuing updates to the "track mode" software)

Yup...streets. 2015 model. https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chev...let-camaro-ss/ There was another test against the RCF where the M4 was just hundredths of a second faster than the Model 3...bottom line the model 3 is basically amazing. I'm guessing the longer the track gets the more trouble it will have...thinking of a special green place. Nonetheless, I'm exited to see Tesla keep going as well as others who enter.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by E46M54325Ci

Yup...streets. 2015 model. https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chev...let-camaro-ss/ There was another test against the RCF where the M4 was just hundredths of a second faster than the Model 3...bottom line the model 3 is basically amazing. I'm guessing the longer the track gets the more trouble it will have...thinking of a special green place. Nonetheless, I'm exited to see Tesla keep going as well as others who enter.

Thanks for sharing the link.

There's probably going to be a full self driving mode in the future where you hit the "hot lap" button and the car will give you a max effort lap using data from a randy p and other pros as the learning data set, customized for the available grip at that time.

I'm somewhat terrified of that moment when my driving will be obsoleted, but also super excited of the idea that my car can essentially be a pro level on demand driving instructor.

Edit: and I hope the reason all this testing is happening now is that Randy P and others are basically beta testing the "track mode" calibration that will be pushed down to the cars.

[bimmer456]

Does anyone know if model 3 performance has adaptive suspension or is it passive? So putting it in track mode vs normal makes no difference to the suspension and is all about cooling and regenerative braking only. Will have to give this to the M3 unless they add adaptive suspension and the ability to switch to track mode via a button while moving. Also no heads up display or moonroof. Would be nice if you could have a carbon fiber roof and hood as well.

[Humdizzle]

i dont think many will cross shop these cars. especially people who like to drive. The model 3 can't set lap times, the batteries overheat too quick.

[bimmer456]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

i dont think many will cross shop these cars. especially people who like to drive. The model 3 can't set lap times, the batteries overheat too quick.

Yup, also no Apple Car Play which sux. I know base models typically aren't as refined as their larger siblings but the 3 is absolutely spartan. For the same money as an M3 they could maybe offer a little more. Maybe a competition pack as well.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

i dont think many will cross shop these cars. especially people who like to drive. The model 3 can't set lap times, the batteries overheat too quick.

Check out the links above Model 3 is 1s behind Alfa QV at streets of willow. Qv uses r tires from factory, model 3 uses PS4 commuter tires.

It loses 2-3s overall at lime rock after battery gets hot, compare to its best lap time

To the other poster, it's a passive suspension

[DieGrüneHölle]

It isn't just the reduced power, which now comes on more gradually thanks to a track mode. R&T was provided two Model 3 Perf for their track test. One lap of 1.5m Lime Rock used 9miles of battery life. They had used both cars battery charge testing before the morning was up. Unless Telsa starts installing superchargers at all the local race tracks, the Model 3 is not yet viable for individuals who track their cars quite often. Endurance racing is where BEV is going to have it's biggest challenge to overcome ICE, whether it be amateur or professional racing. I can't even begin to guess how far we are from a BEV car winning overall at 24hr Le Mans.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by DieGrüneHölle

It isn't just the reduced power, which now comes on more gradually thanks to a track mode. R&T was provided two Model 3 Perf for their track test. One lap of 1.5m Lime Rock used 9miles of battery life. They had used both cars battery charge testing before the morning was up. Unless Telsa starts installing superchargers at all the local race tracks, the Model 3 is not yet viable for individuals who track their cars quite often. Endurance racing is where BEV is going to have it's biggest challenge to overcome ICE, whether it be amateur or professional racing. I can't even begin to guess how far we are from a BEV car winning overall at 24hr Le Mans.

Yes, I think it's not smart to get a model 3 as dual use car. And for what it's worth, I think dual use cars in general are a bad idea. Get a truck, trailer and a race car or keep plates on the race car (my current approach). Lower cost and better track outcomes.

Average joes do track days with 4 or 5 20 min sessions. That's about 10 laps per session, and each session (using your estimate) would consume about 1/3 of the battery or about 25kw.

Sonoma has a L2 charger that does 7kw per hour. There's enough waiting to get power into the battery, so a model 3 owner could participate in the event like everyone else.

It isn't like a magazine where they rent the track for half day and hammer on the car continuously.

I'm going to try it myself one of these days and will report back.

[BluM4]

I think the majority of the F80/F82 owners don't track their cars. If the only thing that we can ding the model 3 is track day, Elon has already won. I have a feeling he has an evil plan to have the model 3 to run sub 3's 0-60 with Randy's assist-driving mode. It will be an over the air update for a BILLION dollar (with Mike Myer's voice).

I remember the day that I refused to use an iPhone because it didn't have a keyboard like my Blackberry. Have the same feeling again today with my F82.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by BluM4

I think the majority of the F80/F82 owners don't track their cars. If the only thing that we can ding the model 3 is track day, Elon has already won. I have a feeling he has an evil plan to have the model 3 to run sub 3's 0-60 with Randy's assist-driving mode. It will be an over the air update for a BILLION dollar (with Mike Myer's voice).

I remember the day that I refused to use an iPhone because it didn't have a keyboard like my Blackberry. Have the same feeling again today with my F82.

You can also ding it for not pulling as hard over 80mph as it does from a stop. And not having car play or ventilated seats, or key fob.

I originally also dinged autopilot for not working in an intersection on a local road. I later learned this is currently the weakest part of AP. On a limited access freeway (it's strongest use car at the moment), it really seems like self driving cars are just around the corner.

[Gavyne]

Performance Model 3 vs MPP modified Model 3 RWD, driven by a long time BMW owner.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Gavyne

Performance Model 3 vs MPP modified Model 3 RWD, driven by a long time BMW owner.

Can you help with a tl;dr?

The vid is taking forever to load and I didn't see any lap times or other info (such as tires on the modded car, and any weight reduction).

[Gavyne]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Can you help with a tl;dr?

The vid is taking forever to load and I didn't see any lap times or other info (such as tires on the modded car, and any weight reduction).

10:41 is when you get to hear what the BMW driver thinks, the pros and cons.

P3D+ is stock Performance Model 3 with PUP. MPP modded is a Model 3 RWD with the following mods:

Mountain Pass Performance Sports Coilovers
Mountain Pass Performance Rear Camber + Toe Arms
Mountain Pass Performance 365mm Front Big Brake Upgrade
Mountain Pass Performance Stainless Braided Brake Lines
Mountain Pass Performance VSC + TC Defeat
Ferrodo DS2500 front brake pads
Advan RGIII 19x10 +35 Wheels
Bridgestone RE71R 275/35/19 Tires
Link to the car: https://www.mountainpassperformance.com/the-future/

Lap time:
1:18.8 for MPP Model 3 RWD
1:21 for stock P3D+ at 48% SoC
1:19.9 for stock P3D+ with MPP Stability Defeat

Would be interesting to see the improvements if they put all those mods on a P3D.

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by Gavyne

10:41 is when you get to hear what the BMW driver thinks, the pros and cons.

P3D+ is stock Performance Model 3 with PUP. MPP modded is a Model 3 RWD with the following mods:

Mountain Pass Performance Sports Coilovers
Mountain Pass Performance Rear Camber + Toe Arms
Mountain Pass Performance 365mm Front Big Brake Upgrade
Mountain Pass Performance Stainless Braided Brake Lines
Mountain Pass Performance VSC + TC Defeat
Ferrodo DS2500 front brake pads
Advan RGIII 19x10 +35 Wheels
Bridgestone RE71R 275/35/19 Tires
Link to the car: https://www.mountainpassperformance.com/the-future/

Lap time:
1:18.8 for MPP Model 3 RWD
1:21 for stock P3D+ at 48% SoC
1:19.9 for stock P3D+ with MPP Stability Defeat

Would be interesting to see the improvements if they put all those mods on a P3D.

Their upgrades should yield good results, didn't he say stock rwd Model 3 was like 1:27?!

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Gavyne

10:41 is when you get to hear what the BMW driver thinks, the pros and cons.

P3D+ is stock Performance Model 3 with PUP. MPP modded is a Model 3 RWD with the following mods:

Mountain Pass Performance Sports Coilovers
Mountain Pass Performance Rear Camber + Toe Arms
Mountain Pass Performance 365mm Front Big Brake Upgrade
Mountain Pass Performance Stainless Braided Brake Lines
Mountain Pass Performance VSC + TC Defeat
Ferrodo DS2500 front brake pads
Advan RGIII 19x10 +35 Wheels
Bridgestone RE71R 275/35/19 Tires
Link to the car: https://www.mountainpassperformance.com/the-future/

Lap time:
1:18.8 for MPP Model 3 RWD
1:21 for stock P3D+ at 48% SoC
1:19.9 for stock P3D+ with MPP Stability Defeat

Would be interesting to see the improvements if they put all those mods on a P3D.

Thanks for sharing! I didn't realize until reading the blog that was at TMP. Awesome. I like that track and have been there a few times when visiting family in Toronto

I couldn't find any m3 times with a quick google search but 1:18 is same as c7z51 (vettes are impressive to me in stock form at the track!) and 1:21 is 981 cayman S times

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/toronto-motorsports-park

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Also interesting are the electronic niggles found in both ipace and Tesla. That's a bit more of a bummer since there are no easy fixes for that (other than hopefully continuing updates to the "track mode" software)

Actually - there is. On TM3, you can disable all traction control gizmos by unplugging front wheel speed sensor.
Not the most elegant of an interface, but fully effective nonetheless.

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

i dont think many will cross shop these cars. especially people who like to drive. The model 3 can't set lap times, the batteries overheat too quick.

First of all, TM3 is perfectly capable of lapping on track over and over again (search YouTube), as it has vastly improved battery cooling system relative to an S. If you need further convincing of what an EV can do on track, search for and watch Formula E races.

As for cross shopping 3-series and TM3 - absolutely. That's what's killing 3-series/C-class/A4 sales.

I had just test driven the TM3 with AWD + MPP (performance pack) last weekend. More impressions here:
https://bmwi.bimmerpost.com/forums/s...8&postcount=20

Originally Posted by bimmer456

3 is absolutely spartan. For the same money as an M3 they could maybe offer a little more. Maybe a competition pack as well.

That's exactly how they are priced: TM3 + AWD + MPP $$$~= M3 $$$.
If you don't track your M3 (true for 95+% of the owners), TM3 is a very attractive and a MUCH faster ride.
Let me repeat that - you have to experience TM3 acceleration to get a new appreciation for what a modern $1+M HYPER car can deliver.

I would not call TM3 interior spartan.
It's highly functional and driving position and visibility are awesome. Though you must have already transitioned to touch-screen controls (BTDT in other cars). Otherwise, it's a hurdle.

TM3, just like Model S, are very compelling cars.
It wont replace the M3 in my garage, but it will very likely replace the i3.

a