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      03-13-2020, 07:47 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by michaelalex17 View Post
I have been told that it could be pad deposits, but the thing is no matter how much driving I do the vibration doesn't go away. Whether I try re bedding or driving normal for like two weeks, the steering wheel continues to vibrate under braking until I replace the rotors and pads again.
I assume you’re using oem pads and rotors? Like I said you can use certain race pads (pad manufacturers and dealers know which are best for this) to “clean” the old rotors of the pad deposits that are causing the vibrations by using them lightly and slowly at low speeds until they squeal evenly - similar to “turning” the rotors on a lathe but the design of the bmw 2 piece rotors makes this tough because they are cast and you can’t remove the hats... once they are smooth again you go back to your street pads and re-bed them to the rotors (take care as not to overheat the pads when bedding just gradually heat them up so as to transfer a layer of pad material onto the discs before using them normally) also try and apply the brakes wih more pressure for less duration (as opposed to dragging the brakes lightly for a long time) once they are working smoothly again... of course it’s the opposite when trying to get rid of deposits that’s when you drag them lightly a lot to try and “clean” them... hope this makes sense sorry for your trouble I know it’s frustrting... of course you can always try different pad compounds until you find something that works better for your car and braking style also make sure the pad clips are inserted properly I’ve seen running w/out clips create uneven deposits (vibes) and of course any loose ball joints/struts will also create vibration in the steering wheel that is only felt when the brakes are applied... good luck
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      03-17-2020, 05:00 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
Either your pads are overheating, your rotors are overheating, or your pads are getting uneven pressure applied.

Another consideration is that the ESC and understeer mitigation systems use the brakes. Those systems don't always flash the light at you when the activate, and you can't always feel it. If a sensor is doing something odd or you changed something or your driving style screws with those systems, they could be overheating the brakes without you even realizing they are working. I.e., aggressive and sloppy driving can eat brakes even if you never even touch them. This is *much* harder on brakes than properly driving within the limit when using proper threshold braking technique.
Not sure about the OP but I think turning the nannies off and taking a extra cool down lap has solved my nagging shudder. Even with Pagid pads.

Never thought about ESC as a potential cause. Thanks
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      03-28-2020, 10:41 PM   #47
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I've had a very interesting winter this year (which was my 6th winter in the F80 platform). I bought my first F80 in Sept. 2014 - and traded to a 2018 ZCP in Nov. 2017. Here's my history with brake judder:

Dec. 2014 - March 2015: Slight vibration in the pedal/steering wheel started in December - got worse until about Feb. '15. Dealer said "warped" rotors. I didn't have any reason to question that at the time, so the rotors and pads were replaced under warranty.

March 2015 - Dec. 2015: No problems with brakes whatsoever. Drove car pretty aggressively for this entire timeframe.

Dec. 2015 - March 2016: Same vibration started mildly in December and got worse as the winter progressed. Same diagnosis from dealer - warped rotors. Rotors and disks replaced under warranty.

March 2016 - Dec. 2016: No problems with brakes whatsoever. Tracked car a few times that summer by switching to Pagid RS29 pads. Swapped back to stock pads in between HPDE's. Everything remained fine - no judder whatsoever.

Dec. 2016 - March 2017: Darn brake judder returned again. Rotors and pads replaced under warranty.

March 2017 - December 2017: Tracked my car at a few HPDE's in summer of 2017 - again with Pagid RS29's. No problems with brakes whatsoever during this time. In November, traded my 2014 F80 for my current 2018 F80 ZCP.

December 2017 - March 2018: Yet again - brake judder started coming back in late December - worsened until rotors and pads replaced yet again under warranty in March, 2018.

March 2018 - March 2019: Same as summer before - no problems - HPDE's done with RS29's. HOWEVER - I kept my RS29's in for the winter (missed a few opportunities to swap pads when weather mild - cold weather persisted - so I ended up just keeping the RS29's in all winter. NO PROBLEMS WITH BRAKE JUDDER FOR FIRST WINTER WITH F80!! The only problem is that I was wearing my rotors down much faster with the RS29's.

March 2019 - October 2019: As usual - several HPDE's during this time with Pagid RS29's - swapped out to stock pads in between events. No problems with brake judder.

October 2019 - March 2020: FIRST WINTER WITH STOCK PADS AND NO BRAKE JUDDER!! .

So - why not any problems the past 2 winters and NEVER any problems in the summer?

ANSWER - PART 1: I personally believe that the salt on the roads in the winter makes the pads more susceptible to pad deposit. Every spring/summer/fall I was always much harder on the brakes, and obviously while driving in much hotter conditions than in winter (especially considering how massively colder it is in Chicago in the winter vs. the summer) - so if the pad deposits are purely a function of heat - one would think that the problem would manifest more in the summer, rather than exclusively in the winter. I'm not an engineer or scientist - but the fact that I had no problems in the winter of 2018-2019 when leaving the Pagid RS29's in only "validated" my suspicion even more.

ANSWER - PART 2: Given that the winter of 2019-2020 was the first winter where I did not have problems with brake judder on the STOCK pads - why no problem this time, but consistent problems for the other 4 winters on stock pads? My guess is two-fold: (1) whenever we had snow on the streets that was more than an inch deep - I drove with the traction control FULLY OFF. I actually learned that I was able to control the car very well by being very gentle and gradual with the throttle, and only using the throttle to drift or powerslide my way through situations when the MDM or DSC would have cut too much throtttle (my HPDE experience seemed to be paying off). DISCLAIMER - I'm not saying that traction control fully off in the snow is necessarily the best/safest for most or all drivers - just saying that this winter - it worked for me and I felt in control of the car at all times - while being careful to never be aggressive with the throttle.

My guess is that in past winters while driving with DSC in the fully-on or MDM position, I was probably being too aggressive with the throttle, and whereby the DSC system was causing far more often/rapid brake applications, which in turn was probably overheating the pads and causing pad deposits way more than I realized (with the salt possibly contributing further). I know there were other times in the past where I drove very gently in the snow in MDM mode - yet I'd come home from a short drive and pad deposits were clearly visible on the rotors (whereas I cannot recall even a single instance in the spring/summer/fall where I saw any pad deposit on the rotors after what I thought was far more aggressive driving).

Interesting that the only thing that was "different" this past winter versus others was driving in the snow with DSC fully off. Is that in fact the explanation for why it didn't happen this winter on the stock pads? Conversely, does this establish that road salt and/or DSC/MDM in the winter creates a greater propensity for pad deposits to build up and lead to brake judder? Again - I don't know - but I'd be curious to hear from those who have had brake judder problems to chime in as to whether their problems with judder arose under similar or different conditions versus my situtations...
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      03-30-2020, 09:53 PM   #48
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Hi buddy
The same thing happens to me.

It was the front wheel bearings.

It took me a year to find out the cause

Get someone to look at your car, jack it up, spin the wheel and if the front suspension has vibrations, it's a bad wheel bearing

Replace both sides if it is faulty


Hope this helps
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      03-30-2020, 10:08 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5218201a View Post
Hi buddy
The same thing happens to me.

It was the front wheel bearings.

It took me a year to find out the cause

Get someone to look at your car, jack it up, spin the wheel and if the front suspension has vibrations, it's a bad wheel bearing

Replace both sides if it is faulty


Hope this helps
Thanks, another member just had his wheel bearings replaced as well. Leaning towards that being the issue as well. My hubs were checked and said they were fine, but still think it's worth changing to see if it fixes the issue.
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      03-31-2020, 06:06 AM   #50
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I got my car back from the dealer on Saturday. They had it 16 days and had to wait for BMWNA to send someone out to look at the car in order for them to ok a 3rd warranty repair in 6 months. Thankfully they agreed that something was still wrong.

They replaced both front hubs/bearings, as well as the rotors/pads again (3rd replacement set in 5k miles). This time the car feels much different too. The steering had never quite felt right to me, it just felt a little sloppy/loose and now it's much firmer and just feels different. So I think this might have solved the problem.

A little frustrating though as I had asked them to check the hubs after the first replacement set warped in 1k miles, but they assured me replacing the rotors/pads again would work this time.
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      03-31-2020, 06:49 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelalex17 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5218201a View Post
Hi buddy
The same thing happens to me.

It was the front wheel bearings.

It took me a year to find out the cause

Get someone to look at your car, jack it up, spin the wheel and if the front suspension has vibrations, it's a bad wheel bearing

Replace both sides if it is faulty


Hope this helps
Thanks, another member just had his wheel bearings replaced as well. Leaning towards that being the issue as well. My hubs were checked and said they were fine, but still think it's worth changing to see if it fixes the issue.
Do you notice any minor vibrations during high speed? You can feel it from the brake paddle

100-120km in particular.
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      03-31-2020, 07:16 AM   #52
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My shudder issue got worse as they warmed up and it was usually only at anything above 30-40mph. It was still slightly noticeable at speeds lower than that but not near as much. It was also most pronounced with only a certain pedal pressure too, like 25% or so. That's where most of the vibration was, and it got better the harder you hit the brakes, but it was definitely still there regardless.
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      03-31-2020, 07:33 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by EricVR4 View Post
My shudder issue got worse as they warmed up and it was usually only at anything above 30-40mph. It was still slightly noticeable at speeds lower than that but not near as much. It was also most pronounced with only a certain pedal pressure too, like 25% or so. That's where most of the vibration was, and it got better the harder you hit the brakes, but it was definitely still there regardless.
Yup I have and have had the exact same symptoms. Fingers crossed the new hubs fix the issue!
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      04-01-2020, 10:03 AM   #54
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Jumping in as another one experiencing this issue. I’m in Michigan and drive my cars year round. I purchased new and drove my 2016 M3 Competition for 3 years and sold it last summer with 80K miles - never experienced any jittering issue. Purchased a 2016 M4 (non comp) in Atlanta with 22k miles and brought it back to Michigan in the fall. Within 5k miles, developed the jitters and had the rotors replaced under warranty. The new OEM pads/rotors have also developed the same jitters within 5K miles as well. Regarding the wheel bearing hypothesis, why would rotor replacement immediately eliminate the issue and then have it slowly show back up? I’m also stumped why it never showed up on on the F80 but is on the F82 (brake pad difference?).
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      04-01-2020, 05:05 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by ambroses View Post
Jumping in as another one experiencing this issue. I’m in Michigan and drive my cars year round. I purchased new and drove my 2016 M3 Competition for 3 years and sold it last summer with 80K miles - never experienced any jittering issue. Purchased a 2016 M4 (non comp) in Atlanta with 22k miles and brought it back to Michigan in the fall. Within 5k miles, developed the jitters and had the rotors replaced under warranty. The new OEM pads/rotors have also developed the same jitters within 5K miles as well. Regarding the wheel bearing hypothesis, why would rotor replacement immediately eliminate the issue and then have it slowly show back up? I’m also stumped why it never showed up on on the F80 but is on the F82 (brake pad difference?).
Exactly - per my post #47 above - I've had my rotors and pads replaced under warranty 4 times - when driving my car TO the dealership on those occasions, the brake judder was very pronounced both in the steering wheel and in the brake pedal. Upon picking up my car and driving it home FROM the dealer - brake judder was completely absent at all speeds, and remained completely absent for approximately the next 9 months (March - December).

My dealership/SA has been great the last few years, and they are always straight up with me on everything with my car. Not once have they ever done anything with the wheel bearings - and if they had - they would have told me about it, and it would have shown up in the paperwork post-appointment.

At least in my case - it was absolutely pad deposits and not a wheel bearing issue - given that the problem went from obvious/persistent, instantly to non-existent upon swapping the rotors and pads under warranty.

Good luck OP - and please post with the results once you get your car back!
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      04-02-2020, 09:14 AM   #56
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My hypotheses on this issue based on all of the various posts is that the currently available stock brake pads are susceptible to excessive (and uneven) material transfer when salt and other winter road chemicals are used. This can be fixed by replacing pads with alternates and bedding to remove / redistribute material evenly.

So to test my hypothesis here’s my plan, I ordered some Akebono pads from FCP Euro today, I plan on swapping pads only (no rotor replacement or treatment) and then perform the bedding process. My expectation (perhaps hope) is that this will remove the shaking issue after bedding. I’ll report back on actual results.
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      04-02-2020, 06:29 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by ambroses View Post
My hypotheses on this issue based on all of the various posts is that the currently available stock brake pads are susceptible to excessive (and uneven) material transfer when salt and other winter road chemicals are used. This can be fixed by replacing pads with alternates and bedding to remove / redistribute material evenly.

So to test my hypothesis here's my plan, I ordered some Akebono pads from FCP Euro today, I plan on swapping pads only (no rotor replacement or treatment) and then perform the bedding process. My expectation (perhaps hope) is that this will remove the shaking issue after bedding. I'll report back on actual results.
Not going to fix the issue. I have used Stoptech rotors with Ferrado DS2500 pads and the issue still happened.
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      04-03-2020, 06:32 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambroses View Post
My hypotheses on this issue based on all of the various posts is that the currently available stock brake pads are susceptible to excessive (and uneven) material transfer when salt and other winter road chemicals are used. This can be fixed by replacing pads with alternates and bedding to remove / redistribute material evenly.

So to test my hypothesis here’s my plan, I ordered some Akebono pads from FCP Euro today, I plan on swapping pads only (no rotor replacement or treatment) and then perform the bedding process. My expectation (perhaps hope) is that this will remove the shaking issue after bedding. I’ll report back on actual results.
Bedding the brakes with new pads will not remove the uneven deposit, bedding can actually make existing uneven deposit worse. You need cold braking to weardown pad deposit, which is best achieved through a few weeks of normal street use.
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      04-03-2020, 06:44 AM   #59
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So should I try new pads plus a few weeks of cold breaking? Modified hypothesis, use Akebono’s to re-true the rotors through cold breaking (normal street use).
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      04-03-2020, 07:54 AM   #60
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So should I try new pads plus a few weeks of cold breaking? Modified hypothesis, use Akebono’s to re-true the rotors through cold breaking (normal street use).
Yes, totally agree with CanAutM3, not sure how agressive the pads you got are but some light pressure dragging of the brakes should clean the old deposits off pretty quickly if they are high torque race pads... you will know the rotors are clean when they start to squeal evenly with light pressure at low speeds, this teqnique can even work w/ stock pads but will take a lot longer to cut through the old deposits and they won’t make much noise if any
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      04-08-2020, 06:59 AM   #61
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So, an update on my path forward with this mystery. As I stared to work the replacement pads in the front, I decided to do a full inspection on all components associated with the various hypothesis in this thread and I found that the front passenger wheel bearing has an issue. Turning it by hand you can feel a notch in it. No doubt about it, it’s not 100%. So I decided to replace both wheel bearings in addition to the new pads (thank you FCP Euro). For the life of me I can’t understand how a judder felt in a rotor will go away when you replace the rotor but then come back over time but I suspect it may be the cause for laying down the uneven deposits. I’ll update the thread in the future when I get enough miles to determine whether my version of the mystery is resolved.
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      04-08-2020, 11:12 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by ambroses View Post
So, an update on my path forward with this mystery. As I stared to work the replacement pads in the front, I decided to do a full inspection on all components associated with the various hypothesis in this thread and I found that the front passenger wheel bearing has an issue. Turning it by hand you can feel a notch in it. No doubt about it, it's not 100%. So I decided to replace both wheel bearings in addition to the new pads (thank you FCP Euro). For the life of me I can't understand how a judder felt in a rotor will go away when you replace the rotor but then come back over time but I suspect it may be the cause for laying down the uneven deposits. I'll update the thread in the future when I get enough miles to determine whether my version of the mystery is resolved.
EricVR4 is trying the same solution. Fingers crossed it fixed the issue for both of you. I am going to try the same as well.
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      04-08-2020, 12:26 PM   #63
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Hopefully it fixes all 3 of our issues!

Probably going to be a while before I know for sure though given how little I've been driving lately
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      04-11-2020, 09:02 PM   #64
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Hopefully it fixes all 3 of our issues!

Probably going to be a while before I know for sure though given how little I've been driving lately
Hubs ordered. Getting them installed next week along with new set of Stoptech rotors and pads. Fingers crossed.
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      04-15-2020, 08:06 PM   #65
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Going in for replacement tomorrow. Hoping it works. One thing was thinking about is do you think it could be the calipers sticking? Could it make sense to have them rebuilt or replaced? Symptoms don't seem to align with bad caliper, but figured would bring it up as a potential cause of the issue.
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      04-16-2020, 05:40 AM   #66
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Going in for replacement tomorrow. Hoping it works. One thing was thinking about is do you think it could be the calipers sticking? Could it make sense to have them rebuilt or replaced? Symptoms don't seem to align with bad caliper, but figured would bring it up as a potential cause of the issue.
I had asked them that as well after the 2nd time they had been replaced. They said they inspected the calipers when replacing the pads and that everything looked fine/within spec. But they also said that about the hubs as well and they eventually replaced them

So it's certainly worth asking them to check
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