Tire problems at first track day

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by kevinmkirn

Welp, I think it's obvious by now that I need to learn to drive a little more smoothly! I took the car in to the local BMW dealer to get a couple of body squeaks looked at and also some significant growling from the brakes following my first track day. They just called and told me that they are replacing the pads and rotors all around. The car only has 3,000 miles on it. The service rep said that "they look like they had quite a bit of action on them" but BMW agreed to replace them so that's what they're doing.
Local upgrade shop is recommending Pagids over Ferodo but I'm not going to change them out each time so this board seems to prefer Ferodo since they are more quiet and perform better on the track. Also looking at Apex EC-7 18 inch track wheels with a stud conversion kit. Shop is suggesting Bridgestone RE71R or Toyo Proxes RA-1.
Finally, shop is recommending Adjustable Lower Control Arms vs. Ground Control camber plates.
Any opinions on this set up? Will probably track 4-6 times per year here in South Florida.
Thanks again everyone.

I'm amazing they're already replacing the rotors..I thought you only had one event on the car?! It's just wasting their own money..

Idk what shop you've talked to, but I would still recommend the Ferodos as they offer almost no-sacrifice performance on track and can handle the abuse better (confidence/safety benefit). I say go with camber plates, not necessarily GC, any brand will do over the control arms. Apex wheels is a good choice, match those with the widest tires possible. You should stick with a street tire for the time being (Bridgestone RE11/71, Hankook RS4 (longevity), etc.)

[Expert@ApexWheels]

Another vote here for camber plates over adjustable control arms. Camber plates bring the top of the strut inwards, which allows for much easier fitment of wider tires (275), whereas the control arms push the bottom of the strut outwards, which reduces tire-to-fender clearance.

--Dylan

[kevinmkirn]

Hi all,
I think for simplicity sake I'm going to have the shop install Ferodo brake pads and Ground Control camber plates and wait on the track wheels/tires. If anyone has it handy, could you please provide the Ferodo compound number? I have a 2018 M3 with the competition package. Then I'll try a much gentler track day approach and see how I do.
Thanks again to everyone.

[CRRobert]

I just ordered the DS2500 so that I can use those till I get a dedicated track set with stickier tires. I am planning to do the Ferodo DS1.11 then for track days.

Also awaiting to install GC camber plates that I have.

https://www.hpashop.com/Ferodo-F80-F...?categoryId=-1

[CRRobert]

I also got the GC plates directly from their website.

FYI, Apex is running a group by on 18” that I was thinking of joining to get part of the track set up going.

[Clinton1009]

I would like your opinions on some race prepped questions I have. New to the forum. First reply so I cannot PM yet..

[krisa9977]

Originally Posted by CRRobert

I just ordered the DS2500 so that I can use those till I get a dedicated track set with stickier tires. I am planning to do the Ferodo DS1.11 then for track days.

Also awaiting to install GC camber plates that I have.

https://www.hpashop.com/Ferodo-F80-F...?categoryId=-1

I would not recommend DS2500 compound. DS1.11 is ok, but definitely not DS2500 or DS3000. If you need budget first level track pad, go with original BMW M performance track pad for M235i, they much better then original M4 brake pad, cost much less and fit M3/M4. Otherwise go with real track pad such as PFC08, DS1.11 or Endless ME20(my choice). It is very important if you put the same brake pads front and rear. If brake pads are different in the rear, you'll get vibration on the axle that has more aggressive brake pad compound

[RazorM4]

Originally Posted by krisa9977

I would not recommend DS2500 compound. DS1.11 is ok, but definitely not DS2500 or DS3000. If you need budget first level track pad, go with original BMW M performance track pad for M235i, they much better then original M4 brake pad, cost much less and fit M3/M4. Otherwise go with real track pad such as PFC08, DS1.11 or Endless ME20(my choice). It is very important if you put the same brake pads front and rear. If brake pads are different in the rear, you'll get vibration on the axle that has more aggressive brake pad compound

I use DS2500 for daily and DS1.11 for track + sticky tires. Which to use depends on the track type and tire. DS2500 are probably fine for autox with street tires. DS2500 are not recommended for fast tracks and sticky tires as they fade w/ heavy use.

FYI. I found the DS1.11 to squeal too much for daily driving. Both r very dusty too.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by RazorM4

I use DS2500 for daily and DS1.11 for track + sticky tires. Which to use depends on the track type and tire. DS2500 are probably fine for autox with street tires. DS2500 are not recommended for fast tracks and sticky tires as they fade w/ heavy use.

FYI. I found the DS1.11 to squeal too much for daily driving. Both r very dusty too.

This is something I have yet to consider, being new to tracking and all. Will pads with too much bite actually have adverse effects if the car is still on street tires? ABS kicking in much too easily? Lose of progressive feeling etc? I'm wondering if my 4-5 track sessions on MPSS will best be served sticking to the OEM pads.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by jmg

This is something I have yet to consider, being new to tracking and all. Will pads with too much bite actually have adverse effects if the car is still on street tires? ABS kicking in much too easily? Lose of progressive feeling etc? I'm wondering if my 4-5 track sessions on MPSS will best be served sticking to the OEM pads.

You just need to adapt how you get onto the brake pedal. Simply "squeeze on" an adjust the "squeeze rate" depending on the bite. The Pagid RSL29 have a progressive enough initial bite that it's barely an issue at all.

The stock pads need good management to avoid uneven deposits on the rotors. It's doable, but you have to be diligent. Note that the stock pads do wear down pretty fast with track use, even on stock tires.

[RazorM4]

Originally Posted by jmg

This is something I have yet to consider, being new to tracking and all. Will pads with too much bite actually have adverse effects if the car is still on street tires? ABS kicking in much too easily? Lose of progressive feeling etc? I'm wondering if my 4-5 track sessions on MPSS will best be served sticking to the OEM pads.

I was thinking the other way. DS2500 will outperform the OEM tires. Plenty of reports of chunking the MPSS when tracking. Thus DS1.11 are overkill for street tires. Once you upgrade to Nitto NT01 or RE77R tires, the DS2500 will overheat.

[CRRobert]

Originally Posted by RazorM4

I was thinking the other way. DS2500 will outperform the OEM tires. Plenty of reports of chunking the MPSS when tracking. Thus DS1.11 are overkill for street tires. Once you upgrade to Nitto NT01 or RE77R tires, the DS2500 will overheat.

This is what I plan to do, DS2500 with PS4S for DD and initial HPDE’s, then upgrade to DS1.11 with NT01 or RE71

[jmg]

Originally Posted by RazorM4

I was thinking the other way. DS2500 will outperform the OEM tires. Plenty of reports of chunking the MPSS when tracking. Thus DS1.11 are overkill for street tires. Once you upgrade to Nitto NT01 or RE77R tires, the DS2500 will overheat.

That's what I'm thinking. To clarify, the DS2500 will not be great with the MPSS tires?

[RazorM4]

Originally Posted by jmg

That's what I'm thinking. To clarify, the DS2500 will not be great with the MPSS tires?

DS2500 is more than enough brake pad for the MPSS. You are more likely to notice tire problems before brake fade. As CanAutM3 mentioned, OEM pads can handle MPSS, but require some management. With the DS2500, you will need to manage the tires without worrying about the brakes.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by jmg

This is something I have yet to consider, being new to tracking and all. Will pads with too much bite actually have adverse effects if the car is still on street tires? ABS kicking in much too easily? Lose of progressive feeling etc? I'm wondering if my 4-5 track sessions on MPSS will best be served sticking to the OEM pads.

My $0.02, you’re planning to do 4-5 days with MPSS anyway and are new and plan to be conservative, just track your car stock and figure it out later

Kevin, where you using dsc or mdm? That eats up brake pad like crazy. Dsc off and go slower

[kevinmkirn]

Thanks all. Will try DSC off next time around. Plan on doing about 5-6 track days down here in South Florida each year.

Was able to have the ground control camber plates installed At Bello Motorsports along with some ferodo DS1.1 pads and good brake fluid.

Track day this Saturday at PBIR so I'll see how things go.

Apex is running a good deal on the EC-7 so I think I'll go ahead and get a set of dedicated track wheels/tires. Wondering if I should consider a square fitment and also wavering between the NT01 and RE71R.

Thoughts/opinions appreciated.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by kevinmkirn

Thanks all. Will try DSC off next time around. Plan on doing about 5-6 track days down here in South Florida each year.

Was able to have the ground control camber plates installed At Bello Motorsports along with some ferodo DS1.1 pads and good brake fluid.

Track day this Saturday at PBIR so I'll see how things go.

Apex is running a good deal on the EC-7 so I think I'll go ahead and get a set of dedicated track wheels/tires. Wondering if I should consider a square fitment and also wavering between the NT01 and RE71R.

Thoughts/opinions appreciated.

My $0.02, go dsc off going forward, do an autox and get some skidpad time to get more comfy with it going sideways, and get a data logger of some sort

[Expert@ApexWheels]

Originally Posted by kevinmkirn

Thanks all. Will try DSC off next time around. Plan on doing about 5-6 track days down here in South Florida each year.

Was able to have the ground control camber plates installed At Bello Motorsports along with some ferodo DS1.1 pads and good brake fluid.

Track day this Saturday at PBIR so I'll see how things go.

Apex is running a good deal on the EC-7 so I think I'll go ahead and get a set of dedicated track wheels/tires. Wondering if I should consider a square fitment and also wavering between the NT01 and RE71R.

Thoughts/opinions appreciated.

Kevinmkirn,

To echo what a majority of members here have said, we would also recommend running with the DSC off at your next event as this will reduce a large number of the issues you were having with the extreme tire wear. If you are comfortable with the car moving around a bit under you and you feel that you have the car control to handle it, of course.

The PSS and PS4S is a wonderful street tire and can handle some abuse on track but as members of this thread have stated, it is not going to perform to the same grip level, or more importantly, the same consistency of a true R-Compound tire. The PSS/PS4S will require much more care and attention to conservation if you are looking to maintain their health over the course of an event. Personally I would recommend a 2-3 lap "stint" where you push the car and the tire, then simply back off for a lap and allow the tire to dissipate the heat that has been generated over the "hot stint".

The argument for a driver mod can always be made in any situation here, and a proper coaching session or video analysis will prove largely beneficial in the long term. More seat time and more learning is always the answer!

We do have an 18" EC-7 Group Buy going on now (link in our signature) which is set to close 3/13. Some sizable discounts on offer there for a full set of wheels for your F8x.

We offer a wide range of fitments for the F8x chassis but for your application we would recommend the following fitment:

Front & Rear: 18x10" ET25 with 275/35-18 tires

• Brake clearance: Steel Brakes
• 5mm front spacers may be required with certain aftermarket suspensions.

Front: 18x10" ET25 with 275/35-18 tires
Rear: 18x11" ET44 with 305/35-18 tires

• Brake clearance: Steel Brakes
• 5mm front spacers may be required for certain aftermarket suspensions.
• Front 18x9.5" ET22 wheel can be used to avoid running spacers with certain aftermarket suspensions due to its superior inner clearance.
• 315/30-18 rear tires may also be used, but may require rolled rear fenders and/or negative camber.
• Rear 295/35-18 tires can also be used.

Both the square and staggered options will serve you quite well and will shine on track compared to your OEM 20" Competition wheels. You can take a look at our fitment guide here:

APEX F8x M3 and M4 Fitment Guide.

If you are debating between the NT01 and RE71R, personally I would recommend the NT01. This tire is not as "quick" as the 71R is over the course of a single lap, but is much more friendly over the course of a session. The NT01 will also serve you for much longer, as the 71R compound is quite soft and will not last as long before showing cords. Generally speaking, these are very high performance tires and will require pressure checks and rotation between events to ensure even wear, maximum performance and longevity.

I hope this helped, please keep us posted on your experience at the next event!

- Max

[CRRobert]

Timely post, I am debating getting RE71 on my 19’s, or go 18s with the NT01, hence my questions on your forged wheel reveal and timing of group buy ending.

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by Expert@ApexRaceParts

Front: 18x10" ET25 with 275/35-18 tires
Rear: 18x11" ET44 with 305/35-18 tires

• Brake clearance: Steel Brakes
• 5mm front spacers may be required for certain aftermarket suspensions.

If you are debating between the NT01 and RE71R, personally I would recommend the NT01. This tire is not as "quick" as the 71R is over the course of a single lap, but is much more friendly over the course of a session. The NT01 will also serve you for much longer, as the 71R compound is quite soft and will not last as long before showing cords. Generally speaking, these are very high performance tires and will require pressure checks and rotation between events to ensure even wear, maximum performance and longevity.
- Max

This is the exact setup that I've run on my 2016 M4 since August 2016, Apex EC-7 wheels and Nitto NT01 tires, based on the blog that Apex did about the best fit for wheels and tires on the M4. I have Ground Control camber plates and Dinan HAS. I did not need spacers. I do between two and four track weekends per year and everything has performed extremely well.

This setup works so well that we ordered the identical setup for my wife's 2018 M3. The wheels are arriving on Monday (after being ordered at the beginning of January). We have a 2-day track weekend coming up in two weeks and a 3-day weekend a couple of weeks after that in April.

[mindspin311]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The stock pads need good management to avoid uneven deposits on the rotors. It's doable, but you have to be diligent. Note that the stock pads do wear down pretty fast with track use, even on stock tires.

So you have to be a wizard? I think I got deposits the first time I touched the pedal on track, and I've been doing this for years.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by mindspin311

So you have to be a wizard? I think I got deposits the first time I touched the pedal on track, and I've been doing this for years.

No wizardry involved here. Just sound and diligent brake management:

• Properly bed the pads before going on track
• Progressively warm up the brakes on the first lap before going hard on them
• Run with DSC off
• Avoid 100% brake force, go 9/10th on braking, there’s not much time to be gained out of braking anyhow
• Proper cool down lap at the end of the session without touching the brakes
• Avoid touching the brakes in the pit/paddocks (within safety reason) after getting off the track
• Drive nose first in your parking spot (don’t back up)