M4 Under 3,300 lbs for real?

[BMW269]

"Official" weight for M3 F80 is 1.490 kg (EU), that is 160 kg less than M3 E90. We'll see if true.

Originally Posted by DarkTrigger

Well, going from a v8 to an i6 should reduce some weight.

Not necessaraly. There is a wieght different of only 7 kg between N54 and S65. Turbocharging hard-ware also has weight, especially if it has to be reliable under hard use (i.e tracking). But anyway, who tracks their M3?

[MEHP]

Originally Posted by Levi

Not necessaraly. There is a wieght different of only 7 kg between N54 and S65. Turbocharging hard-ware also has weight, especially if it has to be reliable under hard use (i.e tracking). But anyway, who tracks their M3?

I think there are enough people tracking their M3s regularly.

In front of me lies the sport auto 6/2013 with the last ever sport auto test of the M392. Interesting for this thread might be the last part of the text:

"'The M3 CSL for me is the benchmark regarding handling' explains M-Chef Nitschke. [...] The new M3 will be available with DCT or MT and for the first time a Ceramic brake as an option. Much more important: It shall weigh nearly 100kg less."

Not the best translation, but you should get the point. The transmission should be available for you as we Germans do not even get an MT M5 like you US-guys do.

If you refer to the M3 CSL as M seems to do, this car HAS to be lighter and it is no secret that the weight of an E46 M3 was always set as target weight for the F8x.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by M3takesNYC

I don't see why not since the current e9x is actually 3550 as weighed by many owners indepedantly through the years.

While it is true that owners have measured their cars at those weights, we should expect BMW to quote their own figures if they indeed use past vehicles as a basis for comparison. In other words, if the F80/F82 has an advertised weight of 3500lbs by their standards, then they'll quote that as a 200lb weight loss from the E90/E92 which weighed about 3700lbs by their standards as well.

In such a case, whether an independently weighed F8x actually comes in 200lbs less than an independently weighed E9x will remain to be seen.

The e46 was 3450 which is much higher than most actually know.

Was it, truly? As I recall that too was an advertised weight. Owners vehicles may have come closer to 3300lbs in weight, for example (that number seems to stick out in my head) . I'd have to go back in forum archives and look to be sure, but it is academic anyway. BMW is fantastic at the numbers game. We saw it recently with the F30 3 Series claims. Is it really lighter than the E90? I think the point is still up for debate today, which is usually the case with such matters - no consensus is reached.

One big problem is that it is difficult for us as consumers to compare apples to apples in the real world due to differences in standard equipment, especially when you start talking different regions and so forth. Then, of course, optional equipment comes into play, and two equivalent pieces of functionality or technology from different eras could have vastly differing weights as well, but the heavier one may be much more robust and feature-laiden, etc. At some level of abstraction (sufficient scrutiny) there really is no true apples-apples comparison to be made. And from a marketing perspective, this presents plenty of opportunity.

So, only BMW knows exactly how they compare the weights of two particular products, even when claims about individual components like the chassis or frame. In the end the finished F8x products will outperform their E9x M3 equivalents,but I strongly doubt we will have a sub 3,300 lb. for or five passenger car this size before next decade when CFRP becomes more mainstream.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Levi

"Official" weight for M3 F80 is 1.490 kg (EU), that is 160 kg less than M3 E90. We'll see if true.

Really, there is an official weight? That simply cannot be true given how far away production is. Am I missing some key point in your post?

[Uli_HH]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Really, there is an official weight? That simply cannot be true given how far away production is. Am I missing some key point in your post?

In the current AutoBild the well known german car journalist Rolf Kacher brings the all new M4 at an weight of about 1.495kg (EU-Weight?). So the posted numbers for the F80 of about 1.480kg to 1.490kg seems to be correct!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

While it is true that owners have measured their cars at those weights, we should expect BMW to quote their own figures if they indeed use past vehicles as a basis for comparison. In other words, if the F80/F82 has an advertised weight of 3500lbs by their standards, then they'll quote that as a 200lb weight loss from the E90/E92 which weighed about 3700lbs by their standards as well.

In such a case, whether an independently weighed F8x actually comes in 200lbs less than an independently weighed E9x will remain to be seen.



Was it, truly? As I recall that too was an advertised weight. Owners vehicles may have come closer to 3300lbs in weight, for example (that number seems to stick out in my head) . I'd have to go back in forum archives and look to be sure, but it is academic anyway. BMW is fantastic at the numbers game. We saw it recently with the F30 3 Series claims. Is it really lighter than the E90? I think the point is still up for debate today, which is usually the case with such matters - no consensus is reached.

One big problem is that it is difficult for us as consumers to compare apples to apples in the real world due to differences in standard equipment, especially when you start talking different regions and so forth. Then, of course, optional equipment comes into play, and two equivalent pieces of functionality or technology from different eras could have vastly differing weights as well, but the heavier one may be much more robust and feature-laiden, etc. At some level of abstraction (sufficient scrutiny) there really is no true apples-apples comparison to be made. And from a marketing perspective, this presents plenty of opportunity.

So, only BMW knows exactly how they compare the weights of two particular products, even when claims about individual components like the chassis or frame. In the end the finished F8x products will outperform their E9x M3 equivalents,but I strongly doubt we will have a sub 3,300 lb. for or five passenger car this size before next decade when CFRP becomes more mainstream.

At a track event last year, my buddy brought high precision scales from his work. We weighed both our cars back to back. His, a "stripper" E46 (6MT and no nav), and mine, a loaded E92 (DCT, nav, EDC, premium sound). There was around a 150lb difference between the two cars...

I will try to dig out the actual numbers.

EDIT:

E92 DCT, carbon roof, premium sound, idrive, full tank: 3688lb
E46, 6MT, no nav, moon roof, premium sound, full tank: 3551lb

Difference: 137 lb

[ixse]

My evo weighted little over 3300lb.. and the thing was tin can with hardly any luxuries.. doubt m4 will be near that #.. ill be surprised to see 3500.. maybe lots of aluminum & cf..

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ixse

My evo weighted little over 3300lb.. and the thing was tin can with hardly any luxuries.. doubt m4 will be near that #.. ill be surprised to see 3500.. maybe lots of aluminum & cf..

4WD with all those fancy diffs...

[MEHP]

Originally Posted by Uli_HH

In the current AutoBild the well known german car journalist Rolf Kacher brings the all new M4 at an weight of about 1.495kg (EU-Weight?). So the posted numbers for the F80 of about 1.480kg to 1.490kg seems to be correct!

AutoBild can write many things as Bild itself can, but this is not a source I would call trustworthy (Bild is a newspaper that is not allowed to call itself a real newspaper because of its lack of fact in it, but moreso rumors and stuff). If any numbers were leaked there would be tons of internet posts around.

In fact, E46 weight was a target that's been quoted many times by BMW workers. But I doubt that there is an official weight yet.

[Hoosiers]

Originally Posted by DarkTrigger

Well, going from a v8 to an i6 should reduce some weight.

How so? The I6 is losing two cylinders, but gaining 2 or 3 turbo chargers, an intercooler, and associated plumbing. The e92 M3 V8 weighs less than the e46 M3 I6.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by Hoosiers

How so? The I6 is losing two cylinders, but gaining 2 or 3 turbo chargers, an intercooler, and associated plumbing. The e92 M3 V8 weighs less than the e46 M3 I6.

Not a valid argument to determine engine weight. F30 weighs less than E90's with the exact same engine and that is without a carbon roof that E92 had over E46.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Really, there is an official weight? That simply cannot be true given how far away production is. Am I missing some key point in your post?

They will have VP builds using production tooling under test now, so can't see why they won't know the exact weight at this stage.

[Hoosiers]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

Not a valid argument to determine engine weight. F30 weighs less than E90's with the exact same engine and that is without a carbon roof that E92 had over E46.

I'm speaking of the engine only. The current V8 is lighter than the past I6 M3's. And that was WITHOUT the added weight of turbos. What makes you think a tri turbocharged I6 engine will be lighter than the M3's current V8? 2 cylinders isn't enough to negate all the added weight of the associated plumbing.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Hoosiers

I'm speaking of the engine only. The current V8 is lighter than the past I6 M3's. And that was WITHOUT the added weight of turbos. What makes you think a tri turbocharged I6 engine will be lighter than the M3's current V8? 2 cylinders isn't enough to negate all the added weight of the associated plumbing.

I agree with the general sentiment that the engine is not likely to be a source of any significant weight loss. But keep in mind that the S54 had an iron block, and this is a big reason why the S65 was able undercut its weight. That being said, with regard to your point about turbochargers - yes - they will largely offset the weight that would have been lost due to losing two cylinders, two banks worth of timing assemblies, etc. Still the N54 does weigh a bit less than an S65 (numbers available by searching the bimmerpost). If the S55 adds another turbo (we don't know yet) then it's pretty much a wash at best. The S55 will also use Valvrtronic, but I honestly don't know how the weight of that compares to ITBs or conventional throttle body setup.

[Tåst]

Yeap, S54 are ironblock engine and S65 aluminium, but new S55 will be magnesium aluminium so hugely lighter than S54 and probably lighter than S65.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by Hoosiers

I'm speaking of the engine only. The current V8 is lighter than the past I6 M3's. And that was WITHOUT the added weight of turbos. What makes you think a tri turbocharged I6 engine will be lighter than the M3's current V8? 2 cylinders isn't enough to negate all the added weight of the associated plumbing.

My bad, I read that as whole car

[Brosef]

Originally Posted by Holander

Yeap, S54 are ironblock engine and S65 aluminium, but new S55 will be magnesium aluminium so hugely lighter than S54 and probably lighter than S65.

don't dismiss the added weight of 2+ turbos and the associated plumbing. I would be surprised if the new engine weighs less than the S65.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Holander

Yeap, S54 are ironblock engine and S65 aluminium, but new S55 will be magnesium aluminium so hugely lighter than S54 and probably lighter than S65.

Will it? Both the N54 and N55 have aluminum blocks. The N52 and N53 use a magnesium/aluminum alloy for the block, but to date no turbocharged engine from BMW has. It would be great if the S55 changes that, but I have my doubts.

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Will it? Both the N54 and N55 have aluminum blocks. The N52 and N53 use a magnesium/aluminum alloy for the block, but to date no turbocharged engine from BMW has. It would be great if the S55 changes that, but I have my doubts.

Yeah, I really doubt it will be magnesium. That would require SIGNIFICANT re-eningeering of the block. I mean hell, at that point they might as well start from scratch and give us a 9,000rpm NA engine.

[swamp2]

Don't forget how much mass there is in the cylinder heads and overhead valve assemblies. That will help an I6 (assuming that's what she'll be) in comparison to any V. Of course it won't help relative to an existing I6.

[Uli_HH]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Will it? Both the N54 and N55 have aluminum blocks. The N52 and N53 use a magnesium/aluminum alloy for the block, but to date no turbocharged engine from BMW has. It would be great if the S55 changes that, but I have my doubts.

You are right, according to sources from an german M-Forum where also some M-GmbH technics are posting, the new M3/M4 engine would be an little bit heavier that the previous S65 V8 ... this also in terms of an S55 based on the N54 with 3.0ltr. as it was common conviction here in this forum.

But there are strange rumors that the new M3/M4 engine would get more than 3.0ltr. probably as much as 3.3ltr. (3.296ccm) as I posted in my closed thread, which for me cries V6 based on the S63Tü, but an member with ties to the M-GmbH told me, that it would be nevertheless an I6 (third source for 3.3ltr.).
As I asked him how 3.3ltr., HDZ and Highpressure-Turbos could work together in an I6 based on an N54/55-Block, because of the very high needed stroke of > 99mm, which is needed to reach 3.3ltr. out of an N54/55, as it is impossible to make the bore greater than 84mm in an N54/55 block ... he tolds me that the M3/M4 engine would probably be basesd on an greater and stronger engineblock older than the N54/55 (S54?) ... I do not know what is in this rumor on it, but it would be for me - due to the lower stroke - the only possible way to imagine an 3.3ltr.I6 Triturbo with 7.800rpm redline in the new M3/M4. But an possible S54-block meens that the new engine would be clearly much heavier than the famous S65.

Nevertheless, regardless of the weight of the new engine the whole M3 will be significantly lighter than its predecessor or the F30 335i ... the EU-weight of 1483kg = ~3270lbs be called from multiple sources as the current state of affairs.
Probably this time the F80M3 sedan will be even lighter than the F82M4 coupe , because a key weightsaving measure are the lightweight aluminum doors and at 4 doors, the potential savings are just greater.

Greets Uli_HH

[Hoosiers]

Originally Posted by Uli_HH

You are right, according to sources from an german M-Forum where also some M-GmbH technics are posting, the new M3/M4 engine would be an little bit heavier that the previous S65 V8 ... this also in terms of an S55 based on the N54 with 3.0ltr. as it was common conviction here in this forum.

But there are strange rumors that the new M3/M4 engine would get more than 3.0ltr. probably as much as 3.3ltr. (3.296ccm) as I posted in my closed thread, which for me cries V6 based on the S63Tü, but an member with ties to the M-GmbH told me, that it would be nevertheless an I6 (third source for 3.3ltr.).
As I asked him how 3.3ltr., HDZ and Highpressure-Turbos could work together in an I6 based on an N54/55-Block, because of the very high needed stroke of > 99mm, which is needed to reach 3.3ltr. out of an N54/55, as it is impossible to make the bore greater than 84mm in an N54/55 block ... he tolds me that the M3/M4 engine would probably be basesd on an greater and stronger engineblock older than the N54/55 (S54?) ... I do not know what is in this rumor on it, but it would be for me - due to the lower stroke - the only possible way to imagine an 3.3ltr.I6 Triturbo with 7.800rpm redline in the new M3/M4. But an possible S54-block meens that the new engine would be clearly much heavier than the famous S65.

Nevertheless, regardless of the weight of the new engine the whole M3 will be significantly lighter than its predecessor or the F30 335i ... the EU-weight of 1483kg = ~3270lbs be called from multiple sources as the current state of affairs.
Probably this time the F80M3 sedan will be even lighter than the F82M4 coupe , because a key weightsaving measure are the lightweight aluminum doors and at 4 doors, the potential savings are just greater.

Greets Uli_HH

So the the car will be nose heavy, great. A heavier engine with lighter doors and trunk creating a lighter rear-end. Wow, this car is going along the lines of the current F30 and M5 failure. You want the weight reduction in the nose if you had to pick. We already know the car is BIGGER dimensionally than the current M3, now it looks like the front end will be heavier as well. That's just great for turns, who cares how light the doors are.