Opinions Wanted: DCT vs Manual in the wake of the rise of EV's?

[AW F31]

Originally Posted by cotmfk

I'm a little late to this thread, but this was the answer I was going to give:





Also, maybe you can post on the local forum relevant to you on this site. Same thing, maybe someone will be kind enough to let you try it out. If not, the G8x manual is a good second option.

FWIW, I enjoy the F8x manual. I've driven Porsche (and others), and yes, they "feel different." But it's not like the F8x one is trash. There's also a huge aftermarket community for F8x, so you can customize the feel of the shifting action to how you prefer.

I would 100% buy manual, as that is one of the main driving engagements/experiences in driving. It will be one of the big differentiators between these cars and EVs.

Good luck with your search!

Thank you, that’s another good idea.

Also good to hear from someone that has driven a manual of the more exotic variety and hear that although different, the F80 manual is not “bad”.

I just thought that the F87 M2 competition must share the exact same gear shift feel (both being equipped with the S55 engine). In the UK there are many more M2C’s with manual, so I could test drive one of those.

[AW F31]

Originally Posted by bagekko

Uh that's a positive if they can't drive a manual, else they might be transporting water jugs in the parking garage or doing burnouts in "lovely" southwestern CT.

Yeah in Europe everyone knows how to drive manuals, but shocked there are so few in the UK. Whats the UK deal for bringing one in from elsewhere in Europe, was shocked to hear that in Germany maybe or some other place it was a 30% import tax.
My gf can drive manual, so not an issue. In the UK, auto cars have historically been much more expensive, and us being peasants in comparison to our American brethrens across the pond, pretty much all of us learnt to drive manuals

Haha, I’ll have to hide the keys!

Following Brexit, importing from the EU has become expensive, I believe the figure is 20% import duties for cars under 30 years old, only 5% import duty for classics though :bs:

I just looked to see if we had cosied up to the commonwealth countries following Brexit and whether by miracle I’d be able to cheaply import from Australia (as their also RHD which is a bonus), but alas, same 20% import duties. Also, Australian cars are expensive £60k (US$72k) for a 2018 with 32k miles! In the UK similar miles would be approx. £40k (US$48k)!

Why so few were speced with manual in the UK is beyond me.

I think it may be to do with the fact that in the UK, a lot of the M3’s, including the one a family member bought, were “pre-reg” vehicles. Not sure if you have similar equivalent in the US, but these are cars that the dealers spec and order themselves without a buyer lined up to go into showrooms so that people can pick up a car on the day.

As the car magazine reviews all raved about the DCT I believe the sales rep responsible for ordering the pre-reg’s went into DCT spec overdrive.

The pre-reg’s were also discounted over buying a custom spec, partly because the car has already been registered with the DVLA (our equivalent of the DMV) and we have a weird cult over here where a car is a ‘17’ reg (beginning of 2017), or ‘67’ reg (second half of 2017) car. If the car on the dealer forecourt is 17 reg and it’s after 1st September, the dealer has to discount the 17 plate as people madly want the 67 reg now

Also with a pre-reg you would show on the title as the second owner, as the dealer was the first, which is another reason they were discounted, as some people are funny about it, not viewing it as ‘new’ as it had a previous owner, despite it’ll have only delivery miles.

That’s my opinion on the root cause of why we have so few manual speced F80’s in the UK.

The F80 my family member bought was a pre-reg. He got it back in October 2017 paying just £52k for a ‘17’ plate with only delivery miles of 12 miles, despite a list price of over £76,000 on account that it had all the exterior carbon bits, the alcantara steering wheel with the display / shift lights and m-performance exhaust, and a smattering of extras. The discounts available were insane! So can appreciate why the UK market is the way it is.

[jfritz27]

It sounds like for your situation, you want a manual. I've had 6MT F80, and now in a CS with the DCT. The manual is not bad if that's your concern -- as others have said, put in a nice SSK and a cheap clutch stop and this will be very engaging for your weekend joyrides.

I've enjoyed both. I will say the DCT feels SO much faster -- but you said at the outset you don't really care about that so much. But in my mind, the speed of the 1-2 shift in particular when you're WOT feels completely different in the DCT. In the manual there's just no way around the rev hang that you must contend with if you want that 1-2 shift to be at all smooth. The DCT is done before you know it.

[AW F31]

Originally Posted by jfritz27

It sounds like for your situation, you want a manual. I've had 6MT F80, and now in a CS with the DCT. The manual is not bad if that's your concern — as others have said, put in a nice SSK and a cheap clutch stop and this will be very engaging for your weekend joyrides.

I've enjoyed both. I will say the DCT feels SO much faster — but you said at the outset you don't really care about that so much. But in my mind, the speed of the 1-2 shift in particular when you're WOT feels completely different in the DCT. In the manual there's just no way around the rev hang that you must contend with if you want that 1-2 shift to be at all smooth. The DCT is done before you know it.

Thanks, and yes your correct, following the above replies, I have a preference for a manual, as the car will probably see only 2-3k miles a year with use on weekends for a blast down B-Roads, and I feel the manual would give a bit more engagement. Once I test drive of a manual M2C or G80 M3 I’ll have an idea of the way I’ll sway.

The market may also determine it for me with manuals so scarce.

[Soul Coughing]

Hello from a UK expat! Good luck on your decision; either transmission is great, but I personally had to have a manual as I enjoy the interaction with the car. I am sure to be missing out on the outright performance compared to a DCT, but it's a daily, and I can't get out of 2nd gear without already being way over most speed limits around town! I also have a Honda S2000 that I personally rebuilt the transmission on, and while the M3 doesn't have the same feel, it isn't outright bad. I did upgrade the shifter with a Turner rear shift bushing - which improved feel, and have eventual plans to go with the UUC shifter.

[r!der]

Originally Posted by AW F31

I didn’t think of maintenance costs for the DCT, I had not heard many horror stories of them, so saw them as bulletproof. But thinking about it, given enough time anything fails.
I would hate to think how much a replacement DCT transmission would cost. Is any part of the transmission salvageable? Can they rebuild it? Sorry to hear of your situation.

I've heard people use that exact word, bulletproof. So I never really worried about it and BAM!

It's been a nightmare.

The transmission is not serviceable and there are no parts readily available. Indie shops suggested I look for a used trans to swap out. One shop that I'm close to said he was willing to open it up to replace the output bearing side as he noticed there was play, and thought that was the issue. The thing is you can't get just the bearings and there is no guarantee with this type of work. Used transmissions are only found at junkyards/EBAY for approx. $1,800 - $3,500 depending on mileage. The concern is looking up the vin, most come from completely wrecked / totaled cars. My fear with this was seeing the donor cars condition (body/frame completely bent/torqued). Who's to say the driveshaft didn't torque / push against the trans during the impact causing damage?

Out of desperation I reach out to BMWNA to see if they would be willing to extend some good faith assistance. After multiple calls and emails, they had me take the car to the dealer. After confirming the transmission needed replacing, they basically told me to go fly a kite. Apparently the regional management team said no because the car is out of the 4 year warranty period (regardless of the mileage ), which my "case manager" new prior to me taking the car in. My argument to them was that I initially reached out to them (and brought the car in) when it had 37,000 miles and that it didn't get fixed because they obviously misdiagnosed it.

Still needing to get the car up and running, I called around a few dealers and received quotes between $16,000 - $18,000 + tax.
In the end I found one dealer that was willing to extend some "good faith warranty work" on their own(outside of BMWNA) by discounting it by 50%. Better than nothing I suppose, but I'm still pretty pissed about having to pay $8,500.

[Chamski]

If it helps in any way, my first car was a manual lancer and after a few cars I owned an s2000. My last manual was a corvette c7 and I really wanted a manual f80. It wasn’t until my friend got his f80 in dct and pretty much convinced me to go that route, truth is I’m glad I went dct and not manual because even tho, yes, having a manual is more fun, Miami traffic and daily driving doesn’t help much. I truly enjoy my dct more than any manual car I’ve had. I had never experience the jerkiness a dct transmission offers and I really love it

Regardless what you choose, good luck and enjoy the car with lots of health

Everyone has their preference and there isn’t a “right” choice.

Good luck !

[Kilabyte]

Originally Posted by AW F31

I didn’t want to waste the 250 mile round trip to test drive a manual F80 if it truely was a bad as people made out.

What?

[RugbyBro]

Manual is not that bad in F8X - room for improvement? Absolutely. Terrible? No. I think you'll be happiest with 6MT for your specific use case.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by Kilabyte

What?

majority of f80/f82 reviews (both magazine and youtubers) were pretty harsh when the car came out. Criticizing steering feel, abrupt torque spike, stiff suspension, exhaust not being as good as the e92, active sound. The comp improved some reviewers stances, but by the time the CS came around it was too little too late and most reviewers were on the M2 comp bandwagon. (joe achilles, throttle house, chris harris, SOL... all bought M2s)

if you watch any M comparison video on youtube the e46 and e92 routinely place ahead of the f80.

[Theruleslawyer]

Its always fun talking in forums with all the people that probably have never driven a M car. They love to tell you how horrible the car is because early reviews weren't great. Never mind the comp, cs or gts. I've had people unironically tell me its the slowest M. Like WTF, can you even read?

I have to wonder if as it ages into 2nd and 3rd owners and you start to see more 3rd party content if the opinions on it won't change? With the pandemic even the early ones are a little spendy for the 3rd rate youtuber crowd.

[Kilabyte]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

majority of f80/f82 reviews (both magazine and youtubers) were pretty harsh when the car came out. Criticizing steering feel, abrupt torque spike, stiff suspension, exhaust not being as good as the e92, active sound. The comp improved some reviewers stances, but by the time the CS came around it was too little too late and most reviewers were on the M2 comp bandwagon. (joe achilles, throttle house, chris harris, SOL... all bought M2s)

if you watch any M comparison video on youtube the e46 and e92 routinely place ahead of the f80.

Bbbuut what does any of that have to do with it being a manual vs DCT?

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by Kilabyte

Bbbuut what does any of that have to do with it being a manual vs DCT?

i think i missed the 'manual' part in your quote. i thought he was talking about not going to check out any f80 in general because of reviews he read.

[Kilabyte]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

i think i missed the 'manual' part in your quote. i thought he was talking about not going to check out any f80 in general because of reviews he read.

No problem

[Hxngs]

I had an auto 335i and 340i. I went with a manual for this type of car and I enjoy every second of it. The shift from 1 to 2 is easy once you get used to it without the help of rev match. The manual on this car has some nanies compared to my dads 370z but I still love it.

[AW F31]

Originally Posted by r!der

I've heard people use that exact word, bulletproof. So I never really worried about it and BAM!

It's been a nightmare.

The transmission is not serviceable and there are no parts readily available. Indie shops suggested I look for a used trans to swap out. One shop that I'm close to said he was willing to open it up to replace the output bearing side as he noticed there was play, and thought that was the issue. The thing is you can't get just the bearings and there is no guarantee with this type of work. Used transmissions are only found at junkyards/EBAY for approx. $1,800 - $3,500 depending on mileage. The concern is looking up the vin, most come from completely wrecked / totaled cars. My fear with this was seeing the donor cars condition (body/frame completely bent/torqued). Who's to say the driveshaft didn't torque / push against the trans during the impact causing damage?

Out of desperation I reach out to BMWNA to see if they would be willing to extend some good faith assistance. After multiple calls and emails, they had me take the car to the dealer. After confirming the transmission needed replacing, they basically told me to go fly a kite. Apparently the regional management team said no because the car is out of the 4 year warranty period (regardless of the mileage ), which my "case manager" new prior to me taking the car in. My argument to them was that I initially reached out to them (and brought the car in) when it had 37,000 miles and that it didn't get fixed because they obviously misdiagnosed it.

Still needing to get the car up and [...]

My god! Talk about a nightmare situation.

I think you made the right decision re. not using a salvage box, as you say most cars that get parted out rather than rebuilt have sustained some pretty nasty chassis damage. As you say, you never know whether any of those forces involved were transmitted through the transmission, so you’d be running a bit of a lottery.

It’s good that your perseverance paid off in getting a hefty discount. But even with the discount, I agree that is a bitter pill to have to swallow.

I’m starting to feel that I may get a manual whatever now, if I can’t get a F80. I’d be more inclined now to get a M2C manual than anything DCT. I’ve never had any luck in the UK getting any sort of discount out of main dealers on repairs. So the thought of any chance of a £15,000 repair bill is enough for me to say “no thanks” to DCT!

[AW F31]

Originally Posted by Soul Coughing

Hello from a UK expat! Good luck on your decision; either transmission is great, but I personally had to have a manual as I enjoy the interaction with the car. I am sure to be missing out on the outright performance compared to a DCT, but it's a daily, and I can't get out of 2nd gear without already being way over most speed limits around town! I also have a Honda S2000 that I personally rebuilt the transmission on, and while the M3 doesn't have the same feel, it isn't outright bad. I did upgrade the shifter with a Turner rear shift bushing - which improved feel, and have eventual plans to go with the UUC shifter.

Thank you for the feedback on your experiences with the manual, it is reassuring to hear from those with them that even if I have a minor gripe with the manual, the aftermarket support is there to resolve

I can dream of one day escaping the UK for the US

[AW F31]

Originally Posted by Kilabyte

Bbbuut what does any of that have to do with it being a manual vs DCT?

What I was illuding to is that the car magazines on launch were so negative on the manual, and adamant that the DCT was the only way to go, that I was seeking opinions from those that took the leap and said “sod it, I’ll order a manual” what their experiences were. Whether they had regret, or whether they remain happy with their decision.

250 miles might not sound far, but I’m self-employed and taking the day off work to view the car, together with the UK fuel situation means it’ll cost me £80 in fuel alone, so plus the lost wages. Viewing the closest manual F80 would cost me in the region of £500 once lost earnings are factored in.

Knowing I don’t have to make the journey now though and could just test a M2C or G80 manual has made this easier now, as I can just pop to the local dealer after work.

[slowturbo]

The gts tcu tune gets rid of the kangaroo effect. This was my first automatic car in a while, and I really love it. I prefer it over the manual but this is a highly personal choice as others have said.

[The_Werm]

Manual. More fun at the track and I’ll deal with the occasional traffic whatever. DCT is cool but there is no compromise.

[souldriven]

Originally Posted by jfritz27

It sounds like for your situation, you want a manual. I've had 6MT F80, and now in a CS with the DCT. The manual is not bad if that's your concern -- as others have said, put in a nice SSK and a cheap clutch stop and this will be very engaging for your weekend joyrides.

...

+1 on clutch stop. I put in the one from Burger Motorsport. very cheap and easy to install.

[THEROK]

If BMW Ms had manual shifting feel as good as Hondas and Porsches, I'd consider it over the DCT especially when paired with a naturally aspirated engine.

Alas, these aren't the cards F80/2 owners were dealt, but as my first automated transmission, the DCT is raw and robust falling just one dev cycle short of the PDK. It's just too bad M for Marketing defenestrated it for the parts supplier bin ubiquitous and torque converter somnolent ZF.