MDM mode on Track - failed to stop oversteer

[Soul Coughing]

Hello Everyone,

I tried a search for this but couldn't find anything that pertained to this. I was at my first track day in the M3 this past Wednesday at Palmer Motorsports in Massachusetts. The track is very technical and has lots of elevation change with on and off camber turns. It's a really awesome track! I was told by everyone to keep the car in MDM mode and just feel the car out as this was the first time I was driving it on the track. I had already done one session in the car and was slowly getting more familiar with the car. I had it set up with MDM mode, and sport + for engine and steering. On the 2nd session, I do my warm up lap, and then start pushing the car to similar levels as I had done before. I go around turn #9 and slowly add more power and the car completely oversteers. It was so abrupt that I had trouble catching it and did 2 to 3 slides, putting 2 wheels into the dirt, before I was able to get it under control. I actually thought that I had mistakenly turned off all the nannies, or that something was broken, but as im in the slide, I see the traction control light flashing.
Afterwards I go through the settings and find that it was in fact in MDM mode. I understand that electronics are not infallible, but is this something that I should be expecting to happen on a regular basis? I checked under the car after the session and saw nothing wrong with the car (drove it 3.5 hours back home afterwards). My only thoughts are that there is something wrong with the car (electronics, or mechanical), or that I had hit a patch of something, or maybe my rear tires were past their sell by date (they are Michelin SS and near, but not at their wear bars), because the transition from traction to no traction was so severe and instantaneous! Any input would be greatly appreciated!

[FaRKle!]

MDM (and Sport+ in the non-M models) will let you oversteer some, but will try to catch you if you go too much. That said, they can only correct so much so if you really blow it it can't correct enough to completely stop a spin.

The point is to let drivers approach the limit cautiously, exceed it slowly, so the driver can learn what that transition feels like, but not let them go too far. If you don't approach that limit at at a slow enough pace and blow right past it, then it can't correct enough to save you.

[drroc]

There are times when MDM gets surprised and the car will go sideways, and you have to be on the ball to catch it. However, it won't be as bad if MDM was completely off. This happened to me a few times in the wet at Laguna Seca.

[CanAutM3]

In MDM, you still need to drive the car. The MDM DSC will not do the driving for you like in full DSC, but it will help you recover if you do the right thing. If you keep your foot in and are too slow with your hands, it will spin.

You say it was an abrupt (snap) oversteer, but i really doubt it was the case. I have a strong hunch you induced a classic slow spin from pinching the steering wheel (adding more throttle while not opening the steering). MDM is quite good at catching snap oversteer. However, on a slow spin, it intervenes much less because it believes it is what the driver wants. Most beginners aren't able to feel/detect a slow spin until it is too late, giving the false impression that it just "snapped". There are many discussions on this on the forums. From your description, it seems like a classic case of correcting too late and too much which then got you in the tank slap.

[Ex_Stig]

In the battle between Physics and MDM (or any other version of traction control) Physics will always win.

[MyFragileHalogen]

You were throwing too much weight around without listening to what car says, but you will get better as you get more experienced. Just execute it safely and incrementally focusing on getting the feel of weight transfer, without trying to take shortcuts or relying on traction control too much as there is no shortcut at getting faster.

It's all about smoothness- that driving coaches say all the time sounds very simple but there is a lot of depth. It's all about loading weight on the tires through springs smoothly and incrementally 'enough' so that you will eventually be able to feel (not hear) that you're on the edge before tire(s) start giving up traction. And as you get more refined with smoothness you will be able to do that at all turns on the track including high speed turns. For the same scary turn you had car snapping at 70mph in earlier time, some day you will find out car wouldn't even slide at 90mph. Amazingly fun thing.

[jmg]

MDM will let you oversteer to an extent. Without video of the incident it's difficult to say what happened. Maybe someone spilled fluid on the road, or there was dirt that made you slip? Maybe your tires were still cold and decided it was too much too soon after warmup? Maybe they were too hot and got greasy? Maybe it's what CanAuM3 says and you were already in an oversteer situation until you REALLY were in an oversteer situation because you didn't unwind the wheel.

Listen to your tires, watch that light if you can... when you feel comfortable, turn off MDM and work your way up again. You will feel the car unsettle if you do something wrong. Get to know those limits.

[Mospeada]

u also need to drive w/o MDM, everything turned off , MDM kicks in too much, fries your brakes when you need them and won't prevent you from everything. i'm not sure why they have it, it's a mind trick. learn to be smoother with DSC off and go from there. and yes start with street tire then move up to stickier tire if you want. i find my self going back to PSS, etc. since it gives me more feedback and less abrupt like it does on cup2 , etc.

[Soul Coughing]

Thanks everyone for the responses! This was a pucker moment for sure as I was going about 80mph and there wasn't much run off. I am certain there was user error on my part, but the transition from traction to oversteer was incredibly quick! Much faster than the S2000 I've been driving on the track for the past 15 years! Next track day I will give it another go and work on being smoother with the controls!

[Ex_Stig]

Originally Posted by Soul Coughing

Thanks everyone for the responses! This was a pucker moment for sure as I was going about 80mph and there wasn't much run off. I am certain there was user error on my part, but the transition from traction to oversteer was incredibly quick! Much faster than the S2000 I've been driving on the track for the past 15 years! Next track day I will give it another go and work on being smoother with the controls!

S2000 has hardly any torque and that is why the M3 feels more tail happy.

What I used to tell my students was to focus on being smooth, not fast. Definitely leave the traction control on and work on being consistent. Once you can string together multiple laps in a row without the DSC light flashing then you can work on going faster and experiment with disabling traction control.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by GNALUZU

. Once you can string together multiple laps in a row without the DSC light flashing then you can work on going faster and experiment with disabling traction control.

I respectfully disagree because dsc and mdm will activate even without flashing the light.

That methodology can setup Op for a bigger off at higher speeds from dsc saving them and them not knowing it

Better to go dsc off from the get go and figure it out

OP can also switch out the pss tire to another tire that can handle heat better so they have more laps to practice with more consistency in the available grip

[arashir]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

I respectfully disagree because dsc and mdm will activate even without flashing the light.

That methodology can setup Op for a bigger off at higher speeds from dsc saving them and them not knowing it

Better to go dsc off from the get go and figure it out

OP can also switch out the pss tire to another tire that can handle heat better so they have more laps to practice with more consistency in the available grip

Yes, this hidden DSC activation has done nothing but make it harder to understand why the car is intervening and has made learning the intervention threshold impossible for me.

Without MDM I had a few very surprise unpleasant situations on medium speed freeway interchange sweepers, I mean like 4/10 driving if even that, where the computer would disrupt the attitude of the car with what I assumed was an overreaction and single brake intervention. (and of course no other explanation for the intervention)

Now I leave it in MDM all the time for street because I can't feel the computer intervene in anything below like 7/10. But it makes me wonder what else its doing behind my back, and I wish it would just leave me alone unless there is a real emergency situation

[Gomeler]

The DSC in this car really needs a race mode that permits tire slip, but tries to correct serious yaw angle. I imagine the car has a decent accelerometer in it, it should be able to detect oversteer incidences as they're happening, based on what the four tires are doing, the steering wheel angle, the pedal inputs, and a bit of math. I'm guessing that's what the Porsche stability control is doing, I watch it save 911s and Caymans all the time on track

[kpaso]

You can also code Euro MDM mode which is less intrusive and is perfect for what you specifically want on track.