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      11-18-2013, 11:19 PM   #45
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I can't believe people would pass up on this car because of a 300-400 RPM difference in redline.

That's splitting hairs.
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      11-18-2013, 11:21 PM   #46
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Thanks for sharing and translating


Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
On transmissions:
The manual is derived from the 1M but has been modified and is now 12kg lighter. The 7-speed DCT is taken from the M5/M6, with longer ratios (helping fuel consumption).
Hmm, as much as I enjoy the DCT in my E92, it seems the 6MT will be the choice on the F8X...

Much heavier (70+lbs) and losing the benefit of the shorter ratios. Anyone know how much heavier (if at all) the DCT is in the F10 compared to the E9X? I wonder if the quicker shifts of the DCT will be enough to offset the extra weight. It will be interesting to see comparative acceleration numbers between DCT and 6MT cars.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 11-18-2013 at 11:33 PM.
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      11-18-2013, 11:49 PM   #47
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My money on the DCT car smoking the manual
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      11-18-2013, 11:58 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice
Anyone know the details of the M5's cooling, specifically if there is anything additional for the M3/M4 mentioned here?
I am optimistic for M3/4. The M5/6 have real overheating issues. Not acceptable for a track oriented machine.

The 1M transmission is very encouraging.

Can't wait to drive one. It could be a very special car
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      11-19-2013, 01:41 AM   #49
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I am a bit disappointed about the brakes being 4 pot standard vs. 6 pot CCB. I now have to debate whether to shell out extra 6 grand or so for the 6 pot. But then for track use, steelies will probably be a better choice. Maybe the better option here would be to get the steelies and use the extra $6k to upgrade to aftermarket BBK.
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      11-19-2013, 02:19 AM   #50
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Thank you for posting this! I am excited to drive mine!!!!!
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      11-19-2013, 03:35 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
My money on the DCT car smoking the manual
For sure
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      11-19-2013, 03:52 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paddy335 View Post
It's a little disingenuous to imply that just because ETA is owned by Swatch Group that the components are cheap, or low quality.

It's a bit like suggesting Ferrari is lower quality because it is owned by Fiat.
It was not my intention to imply that. I tried to explain that the movements was made by ETA, provided a link to a Wiki article on the company. And as a closing remark mentioned that ETA was owned by Swatch.

My intention was just to point out that ETA was owned by SWATCH. The post I was commenting on implied that Breitling etc was handmade/made more like the S65 engine. My point was to say that the movements they use are actually mass produced by a sub supplier.

I don't see the analogy to Ferrari. Ferrari engines are made by themselves, not by Fiat.

ETA movements are high quality. But the analogy that was made with high quality watches and the S65 engine wasn't a very good one. In fact the S55 engine would be more comparable with the Breitling watches (as the S55 is made on the main production plant, but not on a sub suppliers plant and used by other manufacturers like the ETA movements is though)

Maybe the PSA diesel engines are a better analogy to the ETA movements? PSA engines are manufactured by Peugeot and is used by Peugeot, Citroen, Volvo, Ford and others. But we digress.

Back to topic

Last edited by Boss330; 11-19-2013 at 05:15 AM.
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      11-19-2013, 07:49 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
My money on the DCT car smoking the manual
Quote:
Originally Posted by paddy335 View Post
For sure
The DCT will most probably be quicker in a straight line. However, IMO, the advantage will not be as obvious as it was on the E9X... smoking might not be the right term here.
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      11-19-2013, 09:07 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie84 View Post
I am a bit disappointed about the brakes being 4 pot standard vs. 6 pot CCB. I now have to debate whether to shell out extra 6 grand or so for the 6 pot. But then for track use, steelies will probably be a better choice. Maybe the better option here would be to get the steelies and use the extra $6k to upgrade to aftermarket BBK.
Excuse my ignorance, but how would steel brakes be better for track use than CC brakes?

CC brakes are fade resistent so better suited for high temp braking and weigh less, which means less stress on suspension/spring/damper units, also good for tracking.
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      11-19-2013, 09:23 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
My intention was just to point out that ETA was owned by SWATCH. The post I was commenting on implied that Breitling etc was handmade/made more like the S65 engine. My point was to say that the movements they use are actually mass produced by a sub supplier.

I don't see the analogy to Ferrari. Ferrari engines are made by themselves, not by Fiat.

ETA movements are high quality. But the analogy that was made with high quality watches and the S65 engine wasn't a very good one. In fact the S55 engine would be more comparable with the Breitling watches (as the S55 is made on the main production plant, but not on a sub suppliers plant and used by other manufacturers like the ETA movements is though)
And M engine were build until now by the M-GmbH in the Special-Engine-Plant like the BMW racing engines and not on the mass production BMW AG engine plant in Steyr ... perfect analogy to Ferrari vs. Fiat.

As of the watches ... the Breitling watches were made by Breitling on their production plant and not on an mass production plant like ETA - so the analogy seem a very good one!

And as I said before the real M spirit comes from the credo "Rennsporttechnik für die Straße" and the easiest point to show this is the racing inspired engine like S14, S52, S62, S54, S85 and S65. This is gone ... now its an mass produced engine with no racing spirit and produced on the same engine plant like all other regular AG engines.
If you read the SPORTAUTO article between the lines and together with the the follow on E92/S65 article you know that the authors of ths great sportcars may feel the same ... the new M3/M4 would be an great car and "the best M3 ever" but in spite of the engine and not because of the engine... the engine is an real disappointment for many M fans.

And I am of the opinion that an M3/M4 with an lightly modfied S65 would have minimum the same performance like with the S55, but with much more M emotions and M spirit!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Excuse my ignorance, but how would steel brakes be better for track use than CC brakes?

CC brakes are fade resistent so better suited for high temp braking and weigh less, which means less stress on suspension/spring/damper units, also good for tracking.
Because carbon-ceramic brakes are simply more sensitive, such as when stones fall into the brake ... quickly what is happening on / off the track ... therefore change many Porsche drivers, who are often on track back to steel brakes

Greetings BMW M3 CRT

Last edited by BMW M3 CRT; 11-19-2013 at 09:57 AM.
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      11-19-2013, 09:50 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT View Post
You forget that the production of the M engines in the "Sondermotorenbau" make much of the M-Spirit ... much like the AMG credo "engine build by one person"

Also cheap watches shows the right time, but most technic inspired people would choose an Rolex, Omega, Breitling ... if they habe the money to buy one. Same issue with the new M3/M4 ... going back from an Breitling like S65 to an cheaper more standard S55 engine is an bad move for many real M fans ... also when the S55 fulfil the needed power demands ... and don't forget great torque was never an part of THW real M spirit !!!
Spoken like an OG. Listen, I appreciate your point of view and agree with some of your points but I like to look forward to the next best thing. If BMW decides to crank out S55 engines elswhere then so be it. I for one am more interested in peformance more so than sound, heretige aspect or where the engine is produced. Besides if you want a little nostalgia you can always get into E9X ///M3 or earlier.
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      11-19-2013, 09:52 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
The DCT will most probably be quicker in a straight line. However, IMO, the advantage will not be as obvious as it was on the E9X... smoking might not be the right term here.
+1
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      11-19-2013, 11:16 AM   #58
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Don't know about the rest of you but BMW, and BMW M, has been for quite some time the upscale brand of the masses.

It is the Louis Vuitton handbag purchased by middle class women the world over. It is not the Hermes bag. Rolex and Tag Heuer are good examples, as they both have high-end components but are priced accessible to a focused middle income person and they have high accessibility.

I talk about this because M ultimately moved mass-market. The S55 engine sounds wonderful and I have no problem by it being built in a plant that knows a thing or two about building quality, mass-produced turbo engines.

Hey, perhaps it will have less issues than some of the prior early-produced M engines did
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      11-19-2013, 11:19 AM   #59
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In regards to redline:

For such a group of enthusiasts, I'm surprised people are so easily fooled by redline on a tachometer. I've now owned several cars with a redline set ~300-400 rpms below fuel cutoff and where the true danger zone lies.

We don't yet know the true revving capacity of the S55. We also don't know where the turbo tapers off. Perhaps a 7600 redline indicates a top end of the powerband and a good end to shift, while fuel cutoff occurs at 8000 rpms.

A high-RPM track built 3.0 liter inline six has a lot of room to rev. Let's not say we know the true rev limiter under we find out.
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      11-19-2013, 11:24 AM   #60
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Kinda curious why there would be disappointment in 4-pot calipers. Steel rotors and 4-pots are a proven and reliable track combo with the right pads and fluids. Assuming they are well built, thick, and tall....should also be easier to work on and cheaper to maintain/repair/replace.

Also, less unsprung mass.
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      11-19-2013, 11:32 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
In regards to redline:

For such a group of enthusiasts, I'm surprised people are so easily fooled by redline on a tachometer. I've now owned several cars with a redline set ~300-400 rpms below fuel cutoff and where the true danger zone lies.

We don't yet know the true revving capacity of the S55. We also don't know where the turbo tapers off. Perhaps a 7600 redline indicates a top end of the powerband and a good end to shift, while fuel cutoff occurs at 8000 rpms.

A high-RPM track built 3.0 liter inline six has a lot of room to rev. Let's not say we know the true rev limiter under we find out.
it's not so much the redline people are concerned with as it is the torque curve falling off. we know it does fall off (probably starting somewhere around 6,000 RPMs). we know this both from the cartoonish dyno charts BMW provided as well as the torque figure (as an example, if the engine made its claimed peak torque figure, ~370 lb-ft., at 7,000 RPM, the engine would be making 493 hp) .
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      11-19-2013, 11:34 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Kinda curious why there would be disappointment in 4-pot calipers. Steel rotors and 4-pots are a proven and reliable track combo with the right pads and fluids. Assuming they are well built, thick, and tall....should also be easier to work on and cheaper to maintain/repair/replace.

Also, less unsprung mass.
true that. wasn't the AP racing kit for the e9x a 4-pot front?

that said, I'm gonna skip other options to make room in the budget for the CCBs.
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      11-19-2013, 11:48 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brosef
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
In regards to redline:

For such a group of enthusiasts, I'm surprised people are so easily fooled by redline on a tachometer. I've now owned several cars with a redline set ~300-400 rpms below fuel cutoff and where the true danger zone lies.

We don't yet know the true revving capacity of the S55. We also don't know where the turbo tapers off. Perhaps a 7600 redline indicates a top end of the powerband and a good end to shift, while fuel cutoff occurs at 8000 rpms.

A high-RPM track built 3.0 liter inline six has a lot of room to rev. Let's not say we know the true rev limiter under we find out.
it's not so much the redline people are concerned with as it is the torque curve falling off. we know it does fall off (probably starting somewhere around 6,000 RPMs). we know this both from the cartoonish dyno charts BMW provided as well as the torque figure (as an example, if the engine made its claimed peak torque figure, ~370 lb-ft., at 7,000 RPM, the engine would be making 493 hp) .
Lets hope those are the real numbers!

No one else was bothered with the 5/95 % reasoning because i think for me it is backwards. 95/5.
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      11-19-2013, 11:48 AM   #64
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Is there more subjective comments from the author of this piece? The info from Bierman is interesting and all but it could just as well been held in an office. The reason for a ride along would be to get impressions of sound, acceleration, ride, roll, cabin ambience, quality of materials etc. where is the excitement and guesses of how this car will compare and destroy the competition for years to come etc? I find the lack of such comments concerning. There weren't much of that from the ride alongs that Jason and co. attended earlier either. This is not a new Corolla or something it's a new M3, the best of the best in this category, people who has been in the car should be blown away and not stop raving about it. Doesn't seem to be the case.

Last edited by solstice; 11-19-2013 at 12:04 PM.
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      11-19-2013, 12:06 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT View Post
As of the watches ... the Breitling watches were made by Breitling on their production plant and not on an mass production plant like ETA - so the analogy seem a very good one!
Breitling watches use ETA movements, similar to a lot of other brands. It's like buying a engine from someone else and then putting it in your car on your own assembly line. Anyway, as others have pointed out. We are talking about a BMW M, not a Pagani Huyara. BMW made 60000 E9x M3's, that is a mass produced car by EU standards. It's nowhere near getting a small volume type approval procedure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT View Post
And as I said before the real M spirit comes from the credo "Rennsporttechnik für die Straße" and the easiest point to show this is the racing inspired engine like S14, S52, S62, S54, S85 and S65. This is gone ... now its an mass produced engine with no racing spirit and produced on the same engine plant like all other regular AG engines.
The S65 is just as mass produced with 60000 units built. And according to Biermann, NO previous base model of the M3 has been more track ready as the F8x. So the car should live up to the credo

Sure, the engine is a new direction and it will be interesting to see if it lives up to the task it has to meet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT View Post
If you read the SPORTAUTO article between the lines and together with the the follow on E92/S65 article you know that the authors of ths great sportcars may feel the same ... the new M3/M4 would be an great car and "the best M3 ever" but in spite of the engine and not because of the engine... the engine is an real disappointment for many M fans.
I can't find any hidden, or between the lines, meanings in the article. But as I said German is not my first language. And quite honestly it really doesn't bother me anyway. I just found it to be an interesting article

BTW, where was the Biermann comments you mentioned regarding saving money on the engine (that I had left out)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT View Post
Because carbon-ceramic brakes are simply more sensitive, such as when stones fall into the brake ... quickly what is happening on / off the track ... therefore change many Porsche drivers, who are often on track back to steel brakes
Ok, that is probably correct. But I thought that the brakes would be more exposed to debris on a public road than it would be at a race track

I don't think you can buy a Ferrari without CCB anymore, many of them are tracked.
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      11-19-2013, 12:08 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Excuse my ignorance, but how would steel brakes be better for track use than CC brakes?

CC brakes are fade resistent so better suited for high temp braking and weigh less, which means less stress on suspension/spring/damper units, also good for tracking.
Well, you have to be careful with CCB brakes. Not all created equal. The porsche PCCB for example (I have it) is a bad choice for track use. MovIT would be very good on the other hand.
I have a feeling the M4 CCB will be closer to porsche specs, meaning the hardened surface on the disk is very thin. It will last on teh street but not on the track. Porsche PCCB will last about 3 times of a decent iron disk for a cost of x6. Plus, pad selection is a problem. Only one pad is available now (for porsche) which is not a race pad. Choose CCB if you are not tracking your car only!! (or take it off and store it for resale like I do on my GT3)
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