Updates on crank hub situation?

[JoeFromPA]

This thread is, like most crank hub threads, devoid of alot of facts.

I don't want to repeat what I've posted elsewhere but feel free to search on my username. Here's some key points:

- There is no known crank hub issue on stock vehicles. We now have >60,000 S55 production engines running literally tens of millions of miles driven and the incidence of a documented stock crank hub spin of ANY type is MAYBE ~2-3 such cases we are aware of.

- The incidence rate of a spun crank hub is somewhere between .1-5% of tuned vehicles, with a higher rate occurring in more highly tuned vehicles. It's exceptionally rare even in very high powered situations. Incidence of a spun crank hub does not increase linearly with power increase either.

- There is no known cause of spun crank hubs. It is, as best, conjecture to say whether it's due to increased power or some aspect of the tune itself. If it was power, why does it happen far more with DCT cars than manual cars? If it was the tune itself, why wouldn't manual cars be equally as impacted as DCT cars? We don't know these answers. We just know that if you drive a manual transmission car - and you tune it - you are at far lower incidence of issues.

- Many of the "fixes" have had major issues due to mis-installation or other issues.

....

I own an f80 and it's a valuable asset to me worth about $35k as of today. I find the misinformation around spun crank hubs to be annoying - it's compared to the IMS bearing in Porsches from 1997-2008 yet it's very different. A stock f8x/s55 engine is ridiculously, ludicrously reliable. This is by far the best and most reliable M engine BMW has ever built with the lowest running cost or maintenance needs - EVER.

Please do not throw money at fixing an issue that doesn't exist on your vehicle.

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

This thread is, like most crank hub threads, devoid of alot of facts.

I don't want to repeat what I've posted elsewhere but feel free to search on my username. Here's some key points:

- There is no known crank hub issue on stock vehicles. We now have >60,000 S55 production engines running literally tens of millions of miles driven and the incidence of a documented stock crank hub spin of ANY type is MAYBE ~2-3 such cases we are aware of.

- The incidence rate of a spun crank hub is somewhere between .1-5% of tuned vehicles, with a higher rate occurring in more highly tuned vehicles. It's exceptionally rare even in very high powered situations. Incidence of a spun crank hub does not increase linearly with power increase either.

- There is no known cause of spun crank hubs. It is, as best, conjecture to say whether it's due to increased power or some aspect of the tune itself. If it was power, why does it happen far more with DCT cars than manual cars? If it was the tune itself, why wouldn't manual cars be equally as impacted as DCT cars? We don't know these answers. We just know that if you drive a manual transmission car - and you tune it - you are at far lower incidence of issues.

- Many of the "fixes" have had major issues due to mis-installation or other issues.

....

I own an f80 and it's a valuable asset to me worth about $35k as of today. I find the misinformation around spun crank hubs to be annoying - it's compared to the IMS bearing in Porsches from 1997-2008 yet it's very different. A stock f8x/s55 engine is ridiculously, ludicrously reliable. This is by far the best and most reliable M engine BMW has ever built with the lowest running cost or maintenance needs - EVER.

Please do not throw money at fixing an issue that doesn't exist on your vehicle.

Mic drop...

[allinon72]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

This thread is, like most crank hub threads, devoid of alot of facts.

I don't want to repeat what I've posted elsewhere but feel free to search on my username. Here's some key points:

- There is no known crank hub issue on stock vehicles. We now have >60,000 S55 production engines running literally tens of millions of miles driven and the incidence of a documented stock crank hub spin of ANY type is MAYBE ~2-3 such cases we are aware of.

- The incidence rate of a spun crank hub is somewhere between .1-5% of tuned vehicles, with a higher rate occurring in more highly tuned vehicles. It's exceptionally rare even in very high powered situations. Incidence of a spun crank hub does not increase linearly with power increase either.

- There is no known cause of spun crank hubs. It is, as best, conjecture to say whether it's due to increased power or some aspect of the tune itself. If it was power, why does it happen far more with DCT cars than manual cars? If it was the tune itself, why wouldn't manual cars be equally as impacted as DCT cars? We don't know these answers. We just know that if you drive a manual transmission car - and you tune it - you are at far lower incidence of issues.

- Many of the "fixes" have had major issues due to mis-installation or other issues.

....

I own an f80 and it's a valuable asset to me worth about $35k as of today. I find the misinformation around spun crank hubs to be annoying - it's compared to the IMS bearing in Porsches from 1997-2008 yet it's very different. A stock f8x/s55 engine is ridiculously, ludicrously reliable. This is by far the best and most reliable M engine BMW has ever built with the lowest running cost or maintenance needs - EVER.

Please do not throw money at fixing an issue that doesn't exist on your vehicle.

[rush]

Originally Posted by NickyC

Exactly what I did, I'm covered until February 2023. The car is fast enough as it is and I absolutely adore it, keeping her stock with some insurance in the pocket which I'll hopefully never need.

What Waranty you got? Where company with?
What year your M? How much did it cost you?
Thank you

[PWR///M]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

This thread is, like most crank hub threads, devoid of alot of facts.

I don't want to repeat what I've posted elsewhere but feel free to search on my username. Here's some key points:

- There is no known crank hub issue on stock vehicles. We now have >60,000 S55 production engines running literally tens of millions of miles driven and the incidence of a documented stock crank hub spin of ANY type is MAYBE ~2-3 such cases we are aware of.

- The incidence rate of a spun crank hub is somewhere between .1-5% of tuned vehicles, with a higher rate occurring in more highly tuned vehicles. It's exceptionally rare even in very high powered situations. Incidence of a spun crank hub does not increase linearly with power increase either.

- There is no known cause of spun crank hubs. It is, as best, conjecture to say whether it's due to increased power or some aspect of the tune itself. If it was power, why does it happen far more with DCT cars than manual cars? If it was the tune itself, why wouldn't manual cars be equally as impacted as DCT cars? We don't know these answers. We just know that if you drive a manual transmission car - and you tune it - you are at far lower incidence of issues.

- Many of the "fixes" have had major issues due to mis-installation or other issues.

....

I own an f80 and it's a valuable asset to me worth about $35k as of today. I find the misinformation around spun crank hubs to be annoying - it's compared to the IMS bearing in Porsches from 1997-2008 yet it's very different. A stock f8x/s55 engine is ridiculously, ludicrously reliable. This is by far the best and most reliable M engine BMW has ever built with the lowest running cost or maintenance needs - EVER.

Please do not throw money at fixing an issue that doesn't exist on your vehicle.

Well said and i definitely agree with this. I recently bought a f80 comp (in Australia) and my mate and i have been discussing about this for ages - he has a f82. Here is to throw some statistics in the mix too. For some reason or rather, you Americans seem to report a really high "incidence" of spun hubs and everyone seems to really get worked up about this. From new owners to old... Meanwhile we on the other side of the world don't seem to report nearly as much of these spun hubs both stock and tuned cars. (if any at all) In my mind, it seems like the probability definitely is higher when you run stage 2 + E85 however, i would also agree and probably say most of the tunes here are not nearly as aggressive as some of the ones from US either. I also can't seem to stop wondering about other factors that possibly cause these such as things like servicing differences? temperature/atmosphere fluctuations in US compared to Aus? or simply just different grade of oil? or perhaps these "fixes" are simply marketing scares to sell more for the US market? Either way, i think for the most Aussies it is in the back of the mind but we are not too worried as the incidence seems to be super rare.... Just a thought.... So perhaps the only advice is enjoy the car!

[Sandmansc]

All good info.

I have a 2015 F80 6MT.

40,000 miles with
AA MidPipe
SSR Intakes
BPMSport Stage 1 tune

All good so far.


Now upgraded to BM3 Stage 2 93OCT, VRSF CP & DP.

I was researching if this crank hub issue is really a threat.

From what I can find on here it's almost like cancer. It can happen at any time to any one. If it scares you enough buy a cancer policy.

Sounds like the extended warranty is the best option.


Does anyone have suggestions on where to purchase one?

[Tangent]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

... If it was power, why does it happen far more with DCT cars than manual cars? ...

My guess: There are simply far more DCT cars on the road than manual cars.

[Sandmansc]

Originally Posted by Tangent

My guess: There are simply far more DCT cars on the road than manual cars.

Not everyone's perfect 🤩🤪😂🤣

[PhatLyfe]

Originally Posted by jdub486

Buy an extended warranty. It appears none of the aftermarket solutions are 100% proven at this point.

How much are the BMW warranties going for these days? I'd like to get the 7 year 100k coverage.. i have a 2018 with 8150 miles on it as of now..

[Rhd-jon]

Just did mine =)

[Beemerm3]

My perception is some how the bolts back out of high vibrations. N it spins causing timing problems . On another perception the friction disc in between the sprockets breaks from high load and yeh I don’t know what’s going to happen if your friction disc is cracked.

[WBMW5S]

Originally Posted by Rhd-jon

Just did mine =)

Warranty or crank hub? I would also like to know the cost of an extended warranty..say 7 years either 75k or 100k miles.

[WBMW5S]

Also we have heard from many owners and I like the point that the crank hub fix does not appear to come with a warranty. But has BMW ever come out to say why the crank hub is the way it is or have models..say from 2018 and on been upgraded to a different torq spec or bolt etc. Just thought it would be interested from Bmw's point of view. However it may be such an insignfiant issue that it's not worth the time. In any event my 2 cents, stock your ok, still under warranty witout a tune your ok, maybe stage 1 tune - ok. If you go with a stage 2 or above you know the risks, however small, it is worth a thought. In any event just enjoy the car..."ultimate driving machine" and all.

[horsepower_and_hounds]

Market hype to sell products?.....

My old 2015 M4 I got at 8k miles, ran JB4 6gal E85 and made 520/540 rwhp on a stock car with MPE. Beat on it till 24k miles when it was totaled in a accident. I used to do logging pulls almost every morning for the hell of it...Now I have a earlier build 2015 I just got at 28k miles and did a BM3 stg 1 for now till I do a secondary cat delete then I will do stg 2. I am not at all worried about CHS at under 600hp.

Now I have a question..... the newer S55's and/or the ones in the M2C....are they of a different hub design? If not imagine how many cars are out there everyday.... I only see a few here and there being a issue. I personally feel you either have to over HP the hub design..... or it was defective from production and waiting for the perfect storm. Either way.... it is very few.

What about the M4 GTS? Is it not higher HP and made for countless track hrs... it is if a different design?

There are so many so called fixes that have come and gone...worked or not... but they got a lot of $$$ our of peeps and a lot of shop hr $$$ to the shops

Market.......

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by horsepower_and_hounds

Market hype to sell products?.....

My old 2015 M4 I got at 8k miles, ran JB4 6gal E85 and made 520/540 rwhp on a stock car with MPE. Beat on it till 24k miles when it was totaled in a accident. I used to do logging pulls almost every morning for the hell of it...Now I have a earlier build 2015 I just got at 28k miles and did a BM3 stg 1 for now till I do a secondary cat delete then I will do stg 2. I am not at all worried about CHS at under 600hp.

Now I have a question..... the newer S55's and/or the ones in the M2C....are they of a different hub design? If not imagine how many cars are out there everyday.... I only see a few here and there being a issue. I personally feel you either have to over HP the hub design..... or it was defective from production and waiting for the perfect storm. Either way.... it is very few.

What about the M4 GTS? Is it not higher HP and made for countless track hrs... it is if a different design?

There are so many so called fixes that have come and gone...worked or not... but they got a lot of $$$ our of peeps and a lot of shop hr $$$ to the shops

Market.......

Al ofl that info is in this thread: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1226184

Friction disc changed in early 2017, explained in detail here:

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

I don't see the Crank Bolt Capture alone as being sufficient, both the SplineLock Hub and Crank Hub Bolt Capture is an absolute precaution to a widespread problem. One possibility is the friction areas aren't simply strong enough to hold in the OEM design. Three areas can cause a SCH:

- Crank Hub Bolt not torqued properly or backing out
- Crank Hub Bolt has stretched/backed out
- Friction areas on hub/timing gear cannot hold on their own or as a result of #1 & #2

Drilling/Pinning the timing gear can weaken the gear, we've seen evidence of this in other threads. Going to a 1-piece solution is the best solution at this time (other than a custom 1-piece billet crank) as it eliminates any slipping possibilities from happening....... ever.

Here's the changes BMW has made in the crank hub area over the years. The 1st generation 476 friction disc is no longer used, no data as to why there were 2 different discs used throughout production.

Crank Hub Timing Gear Friction Disc
11237848476 SOP-2/17 (NLA), Old Timing Gear, non-integrated friction disc available separately (11237848476)
11238090136 SOP-Current, with integrated friction disc

Oil Pump Gear
11417589309 SOP-2/17 Old sprocket, non-integrated friction disc
11418091535 2/17-Current, with integrated friction disc

The VTT SplineLock Hub comes with the Timing Gear as part of the hub (no possibility of slipping) and the 535 Oil Pump Gear.

Oil Pump and Timing chains have also changed numbers during production, this can be due to different manufacturers or even design changes. Most likely the dealerships are replacing the gears to the superseded part numbers and replacing the crank hub bolt, I have not yet seen an invoice of a "repaired" SCH from a dealership to verify. No reported cases of a vehicle with a repaired SCH having the same issue twice, but there are claims of later production cars experiencing SCHs which may or may not have been covered.

As mentioned before, if you have no plans to mod and still under warranty - let the dealership handle things if you experience a SCH. This is an area for those keeping their M3/M4s long term or planning on modding. Some highly modded cars never experience a SCH, some 100% stock cars do. It simply depends on what your cost of peace of mind is.

link: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=168

A modified bedplate was introduced ion the ZHP, which some thought would prevent the issue, but still reports of SCHs on later models. Some users feel a crank bolt capture is sufficient - this was never recommended as a complete solution, you need the crank hub kit and crank bolt capture which were designed to work together.

SCHs have happened on M2C, but obviously at lower numbers due to less vehicles on the road compared to M3/M4.

If you are still under warranty and no plans to mod, let your dealer handle things if a SCH happens. that's what warranties are for. If planning on keeping your M3/M4 for long term, do get a crank hub solution to make sure you are worry-free. Decision is up to you.

[horsepower_and_hounds]

And Tom, with your many past years experience which do you recommend or combination of? Is the latest VTT solution combination the best? It is by par the most labor intensive and expensive

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by horsepower_and_hounds

And Tom, with your many past years experience which do you recommend or combination of? Is the latest VTT solution combination the best? It is by par the most labor intensive and expensive

Look around on most cars, most everything that transfers power uses splines: Axles, driveshafts, input shafts, etc. Even race wheels are knurled to keep the tire from slipping upon high torque.

We use a combination of the VTT SplineLock crank hub and Crank Bolt Capture for a full solution.

[Tfk]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

Look around on most cars, most everything that transfers power uses splines: Axles, driveshafts, input shafts, etc. Even race wheels are knurled to keep the tire from slipping upon high torque.

We use a combination of the VTT SplineLock crank hub and Crank Bolt Capture for a full solution.

I know VTT supplies their crank hub with a new oem Bmw oil pump gear.
But, what about the timing gear that is integrated into the VTT crank hub... is the it identical to the oem crank hub timing gear? Does it use the same metal and is it stronger or weaker than the oem part/gear?
Is it likely to wear faster/slower than the gears on the oem crank hub?

Thanks

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by Tfk

I know VTT supplies their crank hub with a new oem Bmw oil pump gear.
But, what about the timing gear that is integrated into the VTT crank hub... is the it identical to the oem crank hub timing gear? Does it use the same metal and is it stronger or weaker than the oem part/gear?
Is it likely to wear faster/slower than the gears on the oem crank hub?

Thanks

Chris@VargasTurboTech should be able to answer your questions on the manufacturing process.

[Insurme]

Guys, I’ve purchased a modded 16 M4 with less than 1K miles. I purchased over the phone and haven’t even picked up the car yet. Now that I’ve learned of the crank hub issue I’m scared as my plans were 100% track usage for this car. Does anyone know of a failure that occurred with the VTT bolt capture only installed?

[Imperial328i]

Originally Posted by Insurme

Guys, I’ve purchased a modded 16 M4 with less than 1K miles. I purchased over the phone and haven’t even picked up the car yet. Now that I’ve learned of the crank hub issue I’m scared as my plans were 100% track usage for this car. Does anyone know of a failure that occurred with the VTT bolt capture only installed?

I believe the official Bimmerpost consensus is that there is no hard evidence of a failure with the capture only.

[Insurme]

After reading pages of posts on this site as well others I think I agree with you. That’s the fix I’m having my dealer do to mine.