Chris Harris Drives: Merc-AMG GT R vs 911 GT3 RS vs BMW M4 GTS

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by c63er

BMW is well known for making regular cars as fun as a supercar.

Not sure if serious? It is more fun to drive an actual supercar than a fast sedan based car, regardless of what the #s say. The seating position, noises, and other intangibles are a big part of what makes it "super". (of course, it would suck to own a "super" car that is at risk of getting pulled on in a straight line by sedan based cars....)

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

why does he say the gts handles worse. when he loves the handling of a standard f80

[redrumm3]

Originally Posted by M2 CSL

Do you think it would beat a nicely optioned Carrera S in a test?

As the owner of a GTS who tracks the car, I can tell you that the car is more than capable of crushing the 4S. I've had no problem disposing GT3's and RS's on the track even older Cup cars. As for the Merc, I can't say. None are at the track.

BMW has built a car that can hold its own against the competition in competent hands and at a price point that's quite reasonable compared to the real price you have to pay for the competition.

I'm not dissing on Harris, I hold him in high regard, but I think the press in general totally misses the point on the GTS. It requires some setup and seat time to get it right.

[c63er]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Not sure if serious? It is more fun to drive an actual supercar than a fast sedan based car, regardless of what the #s say. The seating position, noises, and other intangibles are a big part of what makes it "super". (of course, it would suck to own a "super" car that is at risk of getting pulled on in a straight line by sedan based cars....)

Obviously not more fun then a supercar.

But back in the time of the e30, e36, e46, z3 and various m5 they would bring in the intangible elements of the supercar to the world of sedans and coupes better then any car company out there of the time. BMW invariably had lackluster track times, no one would even care about doing 1/4 mile runs or any other stupid nonsense. But they were fun as hell without having to spend 200k. You'd have a smile plastered from ear to ear after even the shortest drives.

Now with the FXX series it's the opposite. They give you no joy but lots of wings, lots of colors (yay I'm 5 years old) and of course are perfect for 1/4 runs, how better to e race each other. And justify a car that is otherwise a bit bland. I mean how many BMWs of that time could "crush" other cars. Your average amg would make us look like fools in a straight line. did we care? Nope, that's not what the car was for. It was for the intangible supercar elements that made the drive fun.

This is fine and certainly sells cars to the right crowd. (I now cringe when an FXX owner passes me as I expect a bro douchbag to either rev really loudly, tailgate me or make short runs to show me how fast and cool he is). The people who cared about the nuance and visceral thrill of the car were always the best dudes to be around on the other hand. Used to do random runs with perfect strangers just for the fun of it. M3 owners who appreciated all that totally get it. They are still here but we are drowned out by a lot of the idiots we've somehow attracted from Honda and Infiniti.

Making a fast car is not going to be ever be bmws forte. They don't have the money or experience to do it right. They are good at punching above their weight by giving you something different. Giving you amazing fun in an unexpected package, etc. Bmw lost that/forgot that somewhere along the way and is now stuck appeasing a different customer base. The gts is born of that, the ultimate marketing excercise for someone who thinks people actually race for pink slips and for people who get offended or derive self esteem from what rims they have. Good thing is things are always changing so who knows where the future goes.

Ok get off my lawn now

[tetsuo111]

Originally Posted by c63er

To counter some of the never ending hyper car talk. Bmw doesn't need a hyper car. Bmw really has only had two of those as their halo cars, and one of them is by extension of the engine (Mclaren f1).

BMW is well known for making regular cars as fun as a supercar. So if bmw would actually stick to what made them bmw they would be ok. Problem with the gts is that it's basicly a marketing exercise. You can easily identify which demographic they are going for with the car and see how everything from gaudy clashing orange colors to a focus on the "I'm cooler then you, my vtec kicked in yo" turbos. And of course more wings and spolers, that's what really counts.

If bmw would stop being so scared of marketing and selling x number of units and focus on making a good product in the segment we the fans would take care of the rest, as we always done.

As these variants continue to be marketing excercises to different degrees of extreme don't expect much of a comparison against the serious metal out there.

Chris Harris knows what he's talking about and what he's doing.

Sadly, so true IMO. I and enthusiasts like me put BMW on the map years ago when the marque had zero social prestige and driving enthusiasts "in the know" enjoyed the quirky sleeper sport sedans from Munich, and what Bob Lutz described as the "Ultimate Driving Machine".

Nothing in the current product portfolio is appealing, other than the 2-series. The board and executive management chose to abandon the marque's history and roots in exchange for growth. Some of us see this as deja vu. Detroit used to build cars that were the envy of the world. Then finance and marketing staged a coup against the product people, the cars turned into shite, and Detroit is recovering after two generations. When I see the GTS, it reminds me of the contemporary, German version of this:

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by c63er

This is fine and certainly sells cars to the right crowd. (I now cringe when an FXX owner passes me as I expect a bro douchbag to either rev really loudly, tailgate me or make short runs to show me how fast and cool he is)

Ha, there were plenty of douchebag BMW drivers looooong before the FXX existed.

Actually, it was the owners of previous generations that made BMW driver and douchebag synonymous.

[c63er]

Originally Posted by tetsuo111

Sadly, so true IMO. I and enthusiasts like me put BMW on the map years ago when the marque had zero social prestige and driving enthusiasts "in the know" enjoyed the quirky sleeper sport sedans from Munich, and what Bob Lutz described as the "Ultimate Driving Machine".

Nothing in the current product portfolio is appealing, other than the 2-series. The board and executive management chose to abandon the marque's history and roots in exchange for growth. Some of us see this as deja vu. Detroit used to build cars that were the envy of the world. Then finance and marketing staged a coup against the product people, the cars turned into shite, and Detroit is recovering after two generations. When I see the GTS, it reminds me of the contemporary, German version of this:

So apropos

[Brake_Late]

Originally Posted by tetsuo111

Sadly, so true IMO. I and enthusiasts like me put BMW on the map years ago when the marque had zero social prestige and driving enthusiasts "in the know" enjoyed the quirky sleeper sport sedans from Munich, and what Bob Lutz described as the "Ultimate Driving Machine".

Nothing in the current product portfolio is appealing, other than the 2-series. The board and executive management chose to abandon the marque's history and roots in exchange for growth. Some of us see this as deja vu. Detroit used to build cars that were the envy of the world. Then finance and marketing staged a coup against the product people, the cars turned into shite, and Detroit is recovering after two generations. When I see the GTS, it reminds me of the contemporary, German version of this:
[IMG]http://st.hotrod.com/uploads/sites/2...nt_quarter.jpg[/IMG]

Yep.
Nothing feels analog anymore like the roots of BMW racing cars we used to have for sure !
Miss her everyday

[Brake_Late]

Originally Posted by RPChan

I couldn't disagree more with this perspective. Sorry. The GTS is nothing like an M4. It is a track focused car. Not a street car with track bits on it.

The right bits can do the trick tho in some cases

[yogajitsu]

Originally Posted by FrenchBoy

The problem with the M4 GTS is not the performance. It's the price. Because of its over-inflated price for what it is, it competes against much better and focused machines.

It should have been $100K and not limited production.

The Amg is 190k, the gt3 is 250k so they should be comparing these to the M6 competition.

[YungDro]

thread closed....

[RedGT3]

Originally Posted by redrumm3

As the owner of a GTS who tracks the car, I can tell you that the car is more than capable of crushing the 4S. I've had no problem disposing GT3's and RS's on the track even older Cup cars.

Maybe you where the better driver.

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by redrumm3

As the owner of a GTS who tracks the car, I can tell you that the car is more than capable of crushing the 4S. I've had no problem disposing GT3's and RS's on the track even older Cup cars. As for the Merc, I can't say. None are at the track.

BMW has built a car that can hold its own against the competition in competent hands and at a price point that's quite reasonable compared to the real price you have to pay for the competition.

I'm not dissing on Harris, I hold him in high regard, but I think the press in general totally misses the point on the GTS. It requires some setup and seat time to get it right.

Well, with equal drivers the car is not beating a 991 GT3. In comparisons it cannot even beat a Carrera S, and that's with the fact that the 911 is on summer tires and the GTS on sticky cup tires.

I've driven the car myself and despite wanting to compete with a GT3 that was already almost 3 years old , it failed as the E92 version did. And it doesn't hold a candle to an RS. The car for me doesn't deliver in the way a GT3 does. Now with the new GT3, you see just how much bigger the gap just got.

The GTS for me would have been a good value for under 100k. Above that mark, it just loses its appeal. That's partially why there are still plenty available.

As I've personally said previously, it's the best BMW they've made by a wide margin, but despite them holding a new bar for themselves, the bar Porsche resets each time is still several notches above, and we have not even seen their best yet.

[WillSkill]

Let's all agree to disagree. We all have different opinions.

But they are all beautiful cars in my eyes

[Xtabi]

Originally Posted by M4_GTS

Wow...now I've heard it all... M2 > M4 GTS... whatever you are high on must be some grade A pure opiods.

I'd take an M2 over a gts. I'd also take a Cayman over an m2. Porsche over a gts any time on looks alone for me!

There now you have heard it twice lol!

[Skid123]

Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY

why does he say the gts handles worse. when he loves the handling of a standard f80

M4 GTS seems to have a narrow sweet spot and is harder to extract max performance. That might sounds hardcore, but in reality the car probably fatigues the driver more than required.

[Skid123]

Originally Posted by Xtabi

I'd take an M2 over a gts. I'd also take a Cayman over an m2. Porsche over a gts any time on looks alone for me!

There now you have heard it twice lol!

+1 but reasoning on chassis. the way Porsche blends pure handling with decent street comfort is black magic.

[jpdchicago]

Again, the 911GT3 RS costs twice as much as the M4 GTS. What kind of a comparison is that?
Totally different price range.
Like comparing the GTS to a regular M4. The GTS goes 30 seconds faster around the ring than the M3/M4.
They are all great cars at their own price point but for different budgets.
No need for the reviewer to bash one or the other.
You could buy a new M4 GTS, a New M3 and a new M4 for the price of a used 911 GT3 RS!!!
If they were priced the same it would be a different story.

[M4_GTS]

Originally Posted by Xtabi

I'd take an M2 over a gts. I'd also take a Cayman over an m2. Porsche over a gts any time on looks alone for me!

There now you have heard it twice lol!

I would take a 991 gt3 over the m4 gts. but the m2 over the gts... I won't even take the m2 over the civic m3/4. Not even close.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by jpdchicago

Again, the 911GT3 RS costs twice as much as the M4 GTS. What kind of a comparison is that?
Totally different price range.
Like comparing the GTS to a regular M4. The GTS goes 30 seconds faster around the ring than the M3/M4.
They are all great cars for different budgets.
No need for the reviewer to bash one or the other.
You could buy a new M4 GTS, a New M3 and a new M4 for the price of a used 911 GT3 RS!!!
If they were priced the same it would be a different story.

GT3 RS does not cost twice as much as the M4 GTS in MSRP. You can't really say they can't compare just because of the trading value of the GT3 RS is so high.

Initially some were trying to sell the M4 GTS at over 200k too.

[neilum]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

As has been seen, it cannot outperform a 991.2 Carrera S despite the many advantages including much stickier tires.

The reality of working off of a flawed platform. The 911 is a sports car from the ground up as we all know, and the M4 GTS is based off of a standard mass produced car.

I am not surprised by any of this, the car is simply punching above its weight from the get go.

I think people also forget or lose sight of how awesome the 911 GT3 is. It's not the GTS M4 is bad, but the P car is epic.

Look I drive an F80 M3 and for a 4 door sedan I fell it's still the best on the market, overall (despite the Alfa being .1 faster here and there). Better looks, better resale, better reliability, better interior, ie overall... anyway...

However, the ZCP is about as far as I would go with this platform regarding pushing the performance envelope and competing against higher classes of car. After this point, it's just a lost cause in a sense. To get better, faster, more focused sharper, tighter, more visceral you need a bespoke chassis, otherwise you are just pissing against the wind and a lost cause against a car like the GT3.

[EvenKeel]

Originally Posted by jpdchicago

AMG GTR: $195,000+ If you can get one
911 GT3 RS: $250,000+ for a 2016 model
BMW M4 GTS: around $130,000 at today's prices.

Not in the same ball park at all.
The GTS is actually a good value for the money.

Got the GTS and a $70,000 SUV for the winter.
Having a blast!

991.2 GT3. Now that's value for money.....nuff said.