Newby track questions

[pdx.mario]

I've been trying to read posts to figure this out but I'm struggling to get going in the right direction. So here it goes.

I did one Novice group HPDE through local BMWCCA chapter and had a blast. My instructor was awesome, great group of people, and just an overall excellent experience. My car is bone stock. While this is my first official track day in a car that is more than capable of what I'm doing, at least for now (having fun, not necessarily racing), I know that tracking a stock car wears out the items that are in place to make it a civilized car. Namely, my tires don't look anything like they looked like before track day, and now my brakes don't feel as bitey (is that even a word?). I've already resorted to the fact that I've essentially ruined the MPSS's, but wondering where I go from here. Do I just continue to track on the MPSS's until they're done, or should I go ahead and switch to 18's and NT01's? The MPSS's have so many rocks in them now it sounds like I'm driving on studs And then there are the brake pads. Continue on factory, or switch to different pads? I feel like this is a rabbit hole because next will be camber plates, then (insert endless list).

I know everyone has different experiences, thoughts, input, which is all good, and of course there's going to be more than one way to achieve the desired results. This isn't a DD. But I also don't want to turn it into a dedicated track car. I just want to go to HPDE days and have fun without ruining or damaging the driving characteristics of the car. Sorry if these items have been covered as I'm sure they have but I couldn't seem to sort it out in other various posts.

Respectfully,

Mario

[Woodengun]

This what I did do:

Track brake pads (learn to change yourself - dirty but easy to do). Many choices here.

Track day wheels with track oriented tires (71R for example).

You can also do camber plates but this is a double edged sword. You can have more negative camber to get more even wear on tracking tires and a bit more front grip. At the cost of more inside tire wear on the daily driven. Or pay for alignment/adjustment before and after each track outing.

I'm way past this point now.

[M3SQRD]

I'd recommend against getting an r-comp tire because you've just started going to the track. Hankook RS3/RS4, Bridgestone RE-71R or Yoko AD08 is a much better tire for someone just starting out and they can be used on the street and track. You'll develop bad habits using r-comp tires at this point.

I'd definitely recommend switching to a race pad and high-temp brake fluid. Brakes are a critical safety item (tires too!) so it's best to play it safe. Pads are not difficult to swap - use race pads on track and then swap back to street pads for street use. Find race and street pad compounds that are compatible which is easy to do.

Camber/castor plates will pay for themselves if you continue going to the track. Running -2.5 deg of front camber and zero front toe will not negatively impact tire wear. Too much toe typically results in much more rapid inner tire wear than too much negative camber.

[MPoweRo]

Good advice above and completely agree.

I have camber plates and PSC2 tyres and with neutral toe they are wearing well.

I have left my RS29 pads on the street so far and provided you do a hard stop now and then they aren't too noisy and perform well when cold.

On the safety side make sure you have a good helmet and an extinguisher in the car.

[Candide13]

Not clear from your original post whether you are new to the track or new to the track with this car. If the former, then all you need to do is to get a heat resistant DOT 5 or 6 brake fluid and better brake pads. I used Stoptech street performance pads for a couple of years and I recommend them.

They are cheaper than OEM, show no fading or deterioration at novice/intermediate track use, and leave no deposits. Best of all, you don't have to change them back for street use.

At the beginning, those pads lasted me for about 6 track days in the front.
I decided to upgrade to PFC-08 pads when I would use up a set of front pads in a single weekend.

This has been my strategy throughout: when I notice increased wear or clear performance issues as my driving improves to the point of extracting more performance from the car, I upgrade, but not before. OEM tires are fine at first, then I used Nitto-05, then Nitto-01. There is no end to performance upgrades, but focus on the nut behind the wheel!

[pdx.mario]

Thanks guys for all the great feedback. I am both new to the track world, and have only had the car for 2 months now. I'm pretty good at wrenching so doing pad swaps, and changing brake fluid is not a problem. I routinely do the brake fluid on our other cars so I have the equipment. I just wasn't sure about which pads, and which fluid to use. If there is a pad that's better suited for track, and not so great for DD, then I don't mind switching. Same for tires and wheels. Picking up a set of 18" Apex wheels with Nitto 01 was on my mind so I don't totally trash my street tires.

I want to be able to take the M to the beach, or run up to Vancouver Island, and be able to enjoy the car outside of the track. But if I have to spend a few hours before and after track day to make the car a little better for the track, then I don't have a problem with that.

And I totally agree with Candide13, I need to focus on the nut behind the wheel. I want to learn how to be as technically good as I can, not just add elements that make me faster but not necessarily better.

[shaftwhy]

My experience has been:

If you have steering wheel vibration and brake humming which you cannot tolerate because of stock pad deposit, then you need racing pads.

If your tires are chunking like hell then you may need better tires.

If you tires' shoulder wear down prematurely in just one day, then you need front camber plate. I would argue that you probably need front camber plate before need better tires though.

After that, nothing is absolutely necessary as long as you don't have to go faster. Hell, those things are not even necessary if you can tolerate those annoyances and have the money to throw one set of tires away every a few sessions.

[pdx.mario]

I went and visited Oregon Raceway Park this past weekend to watch some cars doing the PNW Porsche track day. Wow, lots of nice cars, and what a gorgeous setting for racing. Mt. Adams, Mt. Hood, and Mt. Jefferson all visible from up there. And from everyone I talked to, it's a great fun track. So I'm planning on doing some HOD days in July and Aug and want to have my car better prepared. All the BMW guys I talked to suggested 18" wheels with a more track specific tire, brake pads, and camber plates. While these things might be a little overkill for a noobie, I also plan to keep doing this so why not make the investment now.

A couple of questions for you guys:
Square setup vs staggered? I think squared gives me more tire life and I've heard I could also put spacers on the rears.
Seems like the Pagid RSL29 pads are the ones to use for track days? Install OEM for DD.
GC Camber Plates, have alignment done after install, then mark the alignment so I can put it back to "street" after a track day.

Thanks for thoughts and opinions guys. Really appreciate it.

[FLOSS M]

1- Pads/Fluid .... Pagid/Ferodo etc / Motul 600 Fluid

2- Track wheels/Tires Apex Ec-7 w/ NT01/R888R

3- Enjoy !!!

[FLOSS M]

Originally Posted by pdx.mario

I went and visited Oregon Raceway Park this past weekend to watch some cars doing the PNW Porsche track day. Wow, lots of nice cars, and what a gorgeous setting for racing. Mt. Adams, Mt. Hood, and Mt. Jefferson all visible from up there. And from everyone I talked to, it's a great fun track. So I'm planning on doing some HOD days in July and Aug and want to have my car better prepared. All the BMW guys I talked to suggested 18" wheels with a more track specific tire, brake pads, and camber plates. While these things might be a little overkill for a noobie, I also plan to keep doing this so why not make the investment now.

A couple of questions for you guys:
Square setup vs staggered? I think squared gives me more tire life and I've heard I could also put spacers on the rears.
Seems like the Pagid RSL29 pads are the ones to use for track days? Install OEM for DD.
GC Camber Plates, have alignment done after install, then mark the alignment so I can put it back to "street" after a track day.

Thanks for thoughts and opinions guys. Really appreciate it.

I would not mark alignment and move back and forth...never will be the same.
I run 2.7 up front with some inside sidewall wear on the street tires.

[shaftwhy]

Originally Posted by pdx.mario

I went and visited Oregon Raceway Park this past weekend to watch some cars doing the PNW Porsche track day. Wow, lots of nice cars, and what a gorgeous setting for racing. Mt. Adams, Mt. Hood, and Mt. Jefferson all visible from up there. And from everyone I talked to, it's a great fun track. So I'm planning on doing some HOD days in July and Aug and want to have my car better prepared. All the BMW guys I talked to suggested 18" wheels with a more track specific tire, brake pads, and camber plates. While these things might be a little overkill for a noobie, I also plan to keep doing this so why not make the investment now.

A couple of questions for you guys:
Square setup vs staggered? I think squared gives me more tire life and I've heard I could also put spacers on the rears.
Seems like the Pagid RSL29 pads are the ones to use for track days? Install OEM for DD.
GC Camber Plates, have alignment done after install, then mark the alignment so I can put it back to "street" after a track day.

Thanks for thoughts and opinions guys. Really appreciate it.

Most popular setup:
Staggered Apex 18x10 ET-25 front, 18x11 ET-44 rear, NT01 275/35R18 305/35R18. But experienced people advise you should start with your street tire initially so that it is easier to approach limit and easier to practice skills close to limit, for beginners

A lot of people love RSL29, but people who used both RSL29 and DS1.11 will not use RSL29 anymore

[pdx.mario]

Originally Posted by shaftwhy

Most popular setup:
Staggered Apex 18x10 ET-25 front, 18x11 ET-44 rear, NT01 275/35R18 305/35R18. But experienced people advise you should start with your street tire initially so that it is easier to approach limit and easier to practice skills close to limit, for beginners

A lot of people love RSL29, but people who used both RSL29 and DS1.11 will not use RSL29 anymore

A fellow Seattle racer on Sunday told me he recommends I learn on some Hankook tires rather than the Nitto's because it would be easier to find the slide point. Sounds like a good strategy although I don't remember exactly which tires he recommended. But it sounds like you think I should go staggered.

[shaftwhy]

Originally Posted by pdx.mario

A fellow Seattle racer on Sunday told me he recommends I learn on some Hankook tires rather than the Nitto's because it would be easier to find the slide point. Sounds like a good strategy although I don't remember exactly which tires he recommended. But it sounds like you think I should go staggered.

The stock street tires, once heat cycled out, become quite slippery, which is good to learn skills approaching limit.

The reason of not going square is that, experienced people said and I quote: It is not easy to fit 305 in front. But without 305 in rear, it doesn't provide enough grip to put the power down. Thus the staggered setup.

[nicknaz]

hi, just my $0.02 but I think you should buy a good data logger (actually even Harry's lap timer with a higher resolution gps feed and odb2 dongle is great) and make friends with the fast guys with similar cars to see where you could pick up tips.

I personally would do different tires and check the alignment, and get a logger, and proceed from there.

The main thing I think with pss is they get greasy and that saps confidence when the car starts to slide around. Also, your car might be setup from factory with close to zero rear toe (like mine was) which also contributes to that looser feeling.

There's so much capability in this car, I'd phase the spending.

Also, my personal sense is do dsc off and be responsible with throttle and accept the slower pace at first rather than leaning on the aids. Thats such a hot button topic; sorry if it details the thread

[darkbluemn]

If u have unlimited budget, u will need camber plates, track wheel/tires(NT01 best choice), streetable coilovers(after get to advance group). Brake should be fine, recommend PFC08 or Ferodo DS1.11. If u want to really learn more, u need racing seat/harness/roll cage, so that u can better feel the dynamic. When u on limit, brake is also a must upgrade, get AP racing calipers.

In general, U will be looking at $250/session cost on this car. 2 day events mostly cost $1500-$2000. Crash varies from $20000 to total. I end up with another route.

With limited budget, like me. I bought another BRZ track car and get some more seat time and pass every single M4 on track(except Watkins Glen and similar). Cost about less than $100 per session. And u can afford the crash.

[Caliboy951]

Here's exactly what you should do, buy a set of 18" Apex rims and pick up a set of Pirelli Pzero slicks (several website sell these used for cheap!!) and you will be faster than the majority! I have a purpose build track car and nothing made a bigger improvement than slicks.
Once you get heat in those tires (keep around 32psi hot) you'll be fast and then decide from there what you should do to the car.
If you have some experience then put on a set of brake pads so you don't cook the OEM pads.
Here's a video of me at Bimmerfest 2018 (keep in mind I took the first 2 laps easy to get the tires up to 32psi):

[darkbluemn]

Originally Posted by Caliboy951

Here's exactly what you should do, buy a set of 18" Apex rims and pick up a set of Pirelli Pzero slicks (several website sell these used for cheap!!) and you will be faster than the majority! I have a purpose build track car and nothing made a bigger improvement than slicks.
Once you get heat in those tires (keep around 32psi hot) you'll be fast and then decide from there what you should do to the car.
If you have some experience then put on a set of brake pads so you don't cook the OEM pads.
Here's a video of me at Bimmerfest 2018 (keep in mind I took the first 2 laps easy to get the tires up to 32psi):

Do u suggest to have Pirelli Scrub first and try some events then upgrade OEM pads? Have u done that before?

Regarding the tires, I believe for OP, slick is worst choice. It's too dangerous for beginner to reach the limit of slicks. Without drive on limits, u can't learn too much. Stock tire is not too bad to start with.

[mcvaughan]

Originally Posted by darkbluemn

Do u suggest to have Pirelli Scrub first and try some events then upgrade OEM pads? Have u done that before?

Regarding the tires, I believe for OP, slick is worst choice. It's too dangerous for beginner to reach the limit of slicks. Without drive on limits, u can't learn too much. Stock tire is not too bad to start with.

Yes, bad idea to put a novice on slicks. Stick with a more forgiving tire, such as RE-71R and move up from there.

[Caliboy951]

Good points and I stand to be corrected but I noticed that everything I did (and a lot of money spent) nothing made a bigger difference than slicks.

[shaftwhy]

Originally Posted by Caliboy951

Good points and I stand to be corrected but I noticed that everything I did (and a lot of money spent) nothing made a bigger difference than slicks.

Driver investment makes bigger difference than anything else.

[pdx.mario]

I'm struggling to find a 305 track tire that isn't R compound. The best I can come up with is the RE-71R in a 285/30 rear, or the Nitto NT05 I can get to 295/35 in the rear. A 275/35 front is available for both tires. Being a noob, and after all this is for fun, not racing, it should be fine to run either a 285 or 295 in the rear for the time being? Then maybe on the next round I could step up to the R compound and get to the 305's? I'm looking at doing at least 4 more track days yet this year.

[shaftwhy]

Originally Posted by pdx.mario

I'm struggling to find a 305 track tire that isn't R compound. The best I can come up with is the RE-71R in a 285/30 rear, or the Nitto NT05 I can get to 295/35 in the rear. A 275/35 front is available for both tires. Being a noob, and after all this is for fun, not racing, it should be fine to run either a 285 or 295 in the rear for the time being? Then maybe on the next round I could step up to the R compound and get to the 305's? I'm looking at doing at least 4 more track days yet this year.

If you haven't experienced premature should wear on your stock setup, 265/35R19 and 285/35R19 RE-71R should be more than enough. Actually I would even recommend to have some fun and driver investment and destroy your stock tires at first then switch to RE-71R. But that's just me.