TracTive / DSC Sport Controller

[qmp]

Want to share my suspension build with the community. After 6 long months, TPC/DSC Sport has an opening in the schedule to green-light my F80 project.

The goal is to add full active suspension to my F80 non EDC. This is my set up.

TracTive Electronic RT Dampers
TracTive Top Plate ( ft camber adjustable)
Swift Springs (true coilover rears)
DSC Sport Standalone Controller
DSC Sport Standalone Harness
DSC Sport Accelerometer
DSC Sport 3-Mode Map Switch

TracTive parts are 2 weeks from completion. Once they arrive I will drop off my car for the huge task of sniffing the CANBUS to integrate, steering, braking, and throttle position. Primary input will be from the G-Sensor. Tom@DSC Sport will finalize spring rate selection, dial in the dampers, CCB, and DSC.

My F80 will serve as development car for a future release of PnP controller for F8X with EDC. From my understanding, Wifi options are present on these controllers and will be active later down the line. Along with data logging, the tuning potential will be huge for the street/track duty cars.

I will continue to push for a mobile app to eliminate the need for a laptop at the track.

Many thanks to Jeremy@TPC/DSC for taking on the project and exo-shell for his advisement.

[qmp]

Reserved

[Racer20]

Awesome. Will they use the stock M3 accelerometers on the struts at all? I'm curious to know the control strategy for this. Is it true continuous control of all road inputs above a certain threshold, like the stock algorithm and MR or are they starting with a relatively stiff damper and only controlling pitch and roll like I believe 911's do?

[qmp]

To be honest, I'm a novice on suspension systems so please forgive my basic responses.

I'm not familiar with the OEM accelerometer. My car was not equipped with adaptive M suspension. I'm going from a passive to full active coilovers.

Later down the line F8X with Active M will benefit from a PnP DSC Sport Controller as my control components consists of a standalone controller and harness.

Users will be able to adjust compression and rebound independently on each TracTive damper via the DSC controller. Once parameters are set, the dampers will react accordingly to data from CAN and accelerometer.

I'll leave the topic of thresholds, pitch and roll to the suspension experts.

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by qmp

To be honest, I'm a novice on suspension systems so please forgive my basic responses.

I'm not familiar with the OEM accelerometer. My car was not equipped with adaptive M suspension. I'm going from a passive to full active coilovers.

Later down the line F8X with Active M will benefit from a PnP DSC Sport Controller as my control components consists of a standalone controller and harness.

Users will be able to adjust compression and rebound independently on each TracTive damper via the DSC controller. Once parameters are set, the dampers will react accordingly to data from CAN and accelerometer.

I'll leave the topic of thresholds, pitch and roll to the suspension experts.

Thanks for sharing. I'm what you would call one of those suspension experts, but I don't know specifically what Tractive or DSC are doing.

I'm ready to step to better damping in my F80, but I don't want to give up my adaptive capabilities and I don't want the super high rate springs that come with most coil overs.

Right now I'm considering steeping up to the full CS suspension or doing something similar to what you're doing with Tractive.

[qmp]

Originally Posted by Racer20

Thanks for sharing. I'm what you would call one of those suspension experts, but I don't know specifically what Tractive or DSC are doing.

I'm ready to step to better damping in my F80, but I don't want to give up my adaptive capabilities and I don't want the super high rate springs that come with most coil overs.

Right now I'm considering steeping up to the full CS suspension or doing something similar to what you're doing with Tractive.

From my understand M active suspension is partial active where TracTive/DSC is full active.

We are currently in the process of spring rate selection. Below are DSC's recommendations based on my goals for performance and ride quality.

FRONT: 450 lb/inch, 223mm length, NO TENDER for improved ride quality

REAR: 288 lbs/ inch, 280mm length, NO TENDER for improved ride quality

This calculation is on a basis of a full F80 coilover setup with a 36% difference in spring rate from front to rear. The front per your recommendation was the target for the Front, then calculated to the 36% difference to determine the rear setup for the new coilover.

Personally, I do think 288 may be a little low for the rear especially with more squat from an increase in horsepower, BUT this can easily be adjusted via DSC Sport Controller.

[///Mobbin]

I am also planning on a DSC Sport controller and Tractive RT or RTx package but for an EDC car. I've been in touch with the DSC Sport folks and they mentioned they were sorting a setup for someone, was curious who, thanks for sharing and for being the first!

poor-sha and I will be following in your footsteps here, excited to see this come together!

I am also wondering what spring rates to go with as my intended purpose is for both a daily driver and for the track, COTA specifically. I had an MCS 2-way setup on my e92 m3 with 600 front and 900 rear spring rates and know that is too much for a daily for me. The rear was a separate non-coilover rear, hence the higher rate.

From what I have read, the high speed active dampening of the Tractive dampers should essentially simulate higher spring rates at the track, while allowing for a more comfortable street ride. That is way oversimplifying the magic of it but summarizes why I am going this route.

For those that do not track their cars but are still interested I would recommend looking into the less expensive Tractive touring line. A few folks have purchased this setup and a good review can be found here, LINK - Tractive Touring Line Review.

I'm curious, is this your daily driver and what is your planned use?

Looking forward to hearing more!

[///Mobbin]

Here are the factory spring rates, borrowed from MFNATIK (thank you!)

M3 - Standard
Front - 177 lbs/in
Rear – 591 lbs/in

M3 - Competition Package
Front – 198 lbs/in
Rear – 685 lbs/in

*Factory is non-coilover rears

[qmp]

These are the first top plates that TracTive built for the F8X platform. A bit concern at the beginning but I'm in good hands at TPC/DSC.

My F80 is DD and will see light track time until I purchase a second car.

Glad to see the community come together. I know others have express interest in TracTive as well

Both @poor-sha and myself are local to TPC/DSC

[adc]

Subscribed. I’m local too...

[swifty]

Will the DSC controller be sold separately by TPC like they do for the Porsche community?

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by swifty

Will the DSC controller be sold separately by TPC like they do for the Porsche community?

Pretty sure that's the plan.

[qmp]

Originally Posted by swifty

Will the DSC controller be sold separately by TPC like they do for the Porsche community?

TPC/DSC Sport currently offer a standalone controller for non active vehicles with plans to roll out a PnP controller for Active M suspension F8x platform.

The PnP controller will be a simple upgrade compared to my set up as the supporting harness and CANBUS interface are already in place. My guess are they will play nice with the stock active M dampers but TracTive dampers will be a step up.

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by qmp

From my understand M active suspension is partial active where TracTive/DSC is full active.

I don't believe this to be the case. I'm pretty sure the BMW is just as "active" as the Tractive set up in that it reads the road and driver inputs and sends a command to the dampers every few milliseconds.

The tractive system might have a faster update rate or the damper might have a larger range of possible damping, but that doesn't really make it more active.

The sensor set that BMW uses for controlling their system allows for the highest degree of accuracy in terms of wheel/body motion measurement and damping control. The accelerometers mounted to the struts are one of the key aspects of this. Knowing what each individual wheel is doing allows the system to respond quickly to properly dampen rough roads. This then allows the system to have a very soft level of baseline damping and bring in control via software in order to dampen wheel motion on rough roads. The upside to this is that the software can keep the car flatter on uneven roads, with a less abrupt and jerky ride. The downside is that it takes time for the dampers to respond to software commands, and since they are starting from a very soft level, the damping is a bit less responsive.

I believe Porsche uses a different strategy. Some 911's don't use unsprung mass sensors and only measure pitch, roll and jounce. Since the software can't respond to high frequency wheel motion, the dampers have to have a higher level of baseline damping in order to prevent wheel shake, topping, bottoming, and other undesirable behaviors. The software only responds to low frequency body motions such as pitch and roll. The upside of this is the car is "sportier" and more responsive, since there's a higher level of base damping. The downside is that that higher damping results in a more abrupt ride on uneven surfaces, with more pitch and head toss.

I would like to know what strategy Tractive is using, or if it's some combination of both. There's some chance I could be wrong about the BMW and Porsche systems. I've pieced this together the best I can from the information that's out there. If Tractive can chime in a correct me, I'd appreciate it very much.

[qmp]

Against the advisement of DCS Sport - I started this tread to entice dialogue within the suspension community and your contributions are very necessary to push the platform forward. I too wish TracTive would chime in but given their lack of interaction on this forum it is for now just wishful thinking.

Let me try to expand on my comment regarding partial and full active.

You are correct in that the "TracTive dampers are faster in response or offer a wider range but does not lead to being more active". The dampers are only one part of the equation .The second major component of the active suspension is the DCS Sport Controller. My technical understanding in this field is limited and more details will be forthcoming from DSC Sport. I was inform the difference is that on the M active we have different modes to select from. If you are in comfort mode then you are locked into the comfort algorithm set by BMW. No matter how much pitch and roll the driver input, the suspension will continue to maintain comfort mode until sport mode is selected. On the DSC controller I can go from comfort to sport damping in matter of mil sec without changing modes base on my configurations. Best way I can sum it up is BWM's algorithm set compression and rebound base on which mode is selected. DSC Controller, I can reshape the curve base on any number of inputs on high or low speed on the fly. I will have full control over compression and rebound regardless of which mode I'm in. So if I'm in comfort and I accelerate, I can chose for the rear or any dampener to firm up base on inputs and mapping. I then can fine tune it further within different modes on the track. This is the main reason why I went with DSC Sport's controller and not TracTive's controller. I would say there is a distinction between the M active and my TracTive / DSC set up. Maybe partial vs full was not precise enough of a statement. Perhaps dynamic and static mapping is better suited.

I'm only regurgitating this information base on my limited understanding and in no way meant to discredit your comments.

My suspension build with TracTive and DSC Sport is still a few months from completion. The TracTive dampers are ready to ship however the camber adjustable top plates took more time to develop since they are the first set for this platform. Also my CCB retrofit kit finally arrived and brake booster is being fitted along with my built long block. If no further delays then my F80 will arrive @ TPC/DSC for suspension and CCB install. TPC will dial in the suspension, fine tune traction control and do a proper bedding-in of the CCB.

Originally Posted by Racer20

I don't believe this to be the case. I'm pretty sure the BMW is just as "active" as the Tractive set up in that it reads the road and driver inputs and sends a command to the dampers every few milliseconds.

The tractive system might have a faster update rate or the damper might have a larger range of possible damping, but that doesn't really make it more active.

The sensor set that BMW uses for controlling their system allows for the highest degree of accuracy in terms of wheel/body motion measurement and damping control. The accelerometers mounted to the struts are one of the key aspects of this. Knowing what each individual wheel is doing allows the system to respond quickly to properly dampen rough roads. This then allows the system to have a very soft level of baseline damping and bring in control via software in order to dampen wheel motion on rough roads. The upside to this is that the software can keep the car flatter on uneven roads, with a less abrupt and jerky ride. The downside is that it takes time for the dampers to respond to software commands, and since they are starting from a very soft level, the damping is a bit less responsive.

I believe Porsche uses a different strategy. Some 911's don't use unsprung mass sensors and only measure pitch, roll and jounce. Since the software can't respond to high frequency wheel motion, the dampers have to have a higher level of baseline damping in order to prevent wheel shake, topping, bottoming, and other undesirable behaviors. The software only responds to low frequency body motions such as pitch and roll. The upside of this is the car is "sportier" and more responsive, since there's a higher level of base damping. The downside is that that higher damping results in a more abrupt ride on uneven surfaces, with more pitch and head toss.

I would like to know what strategy Tractive is using, or if it's some combination of both. There's some chance I could be wrong about the BMW and Porsche systems. I've pieced this together the best I can from the information that's out there. If Tractive can chime in a correct me, I'd appreciate it very much.

[Racer20]

Don't get me wrong . . . I'm quite excited about DCS's work on our platform, Hopefully nothing I'm saying will discourage their work. I develop these systems at the OEM level, so perhaps trying to clarify the details of their system in a public forum via 2nd hand information isn't the best way to go about it. I think something is getting lost in translation. DSC's controller is unique in that it allows the user to tune their own curves to an extent, but I'm trying to figure out what sensors are taken into account and how the Tractive system balances comfort and handling.

It sounds like you're talking about user adjustability, rather than the "activeness" of the system itself. Very different concepts. I can say that if DSC sport comes out with a user-tunable controller for the stock F8X, I'll be all over that . . .

[domino_z]

i'm running the tractive coilovers using the oe edc

the tractive shocks themselves are very good on this car, the only aftermarket solution, at least that i know of, that offers a more compliant ride and doesn't achieve a flatter/better handling balance by simply making the dampening stiffer

using their own controller lifts the game even higher, and would be able to really take advantage of their ability to go from full soft to full hard in 60ms

though tbh on this platform, the shocks already work well with the oe edc, they can still absorb bumps even when loaded, something the oe sachs couldn't do

would be great to be able to do a back to back comparo of the same shocks with the oe edc and dsc controller, and will definitely do if/when dsc offer a pnp oe bypass to their own controller like they offer the porsche guys

[qmp]

Sir- are you running the OEM divorce spring setup or true coilovers in the rear

Originally Posted by domino_z

i'm running the tractive coilovers using the oe edc

[domino_z]

Originally Posted by qmp

Sir- are you running the OEM divorce spring setup or true coilovers in the rear

They are oe replacements - so separate spring and shock in rear

I'm a bit too wary of moving the location of suspension parts on a street car

[mechanic75]

Tractive have their own controller, developed before their work with DSC. I’m not sure they do anymore with it since this collaboration with DSC.

The F8x dampers were developed in conjunction with Litchfield in the UK.

When I spoke with Tractive about the BMW control system for EDC they said it was more advanced than the Porsche system, and one of the reasons there is no DSC box for our platform yet. Marginal gains. The dampers are the limiting factor.

As an aside they had a max drop limit because they said the system just made the dampers harder if it went any lower. With the release of the MPHAS and the revised BMW software I would imagine this is not a factor anymore. I would say they perform even better than they did when originally developed.

I would love to try a set one day.

[domino_z]

yep that's the feedback i just got too from tractive

i did contact dsc about their controller, and they can supply their generic controller for F8X but it'd need to be wired in on all 4 corners - not worth the hassle if you already have oe edc

re drop, you can only adjust the front height, the rear shocks have a threaded body but i think it's just a universal casing they use across multiple platforms

so my heights were set just evening out the front to the rear - which was around 10-15mm lower

[qmp]

Originally Posted by Racer20

I can say that if DSC sport comes out with a user-tunable controller for the stock F8X, I'll be all over that . . .

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