RS29 vs PFC08 Pads

[phil.harlow]

Hi Guys,

I know lots of this has been answered before, but I never saw much directly comparing the two. My apologies if I've missed anything obvious and please excuse my naivety.

I will only be doing 5-10 track days a year, and after reading a bit, it sounds like the PFC08 is the most commonly recommended pad I've seen in the forums. However, I can't find anywhere to buy them online. Is the F80 pad size just not available yet? Could anyone point me in the right direction?

However, I am able to find the Pagid RS29s on Turner Motosport, but one of the pluses people mentioned about the PFC08's is that the compound was "compatible" with the OEM pads, so you could swap from OEM and back without having to "clean" the rotor before bedding the pads. Does anyone know if this is the same for the Pagid RS29s? I'd like as quick and easy a procedure for swapping, so any tips are greatly appreciated!

Are there any other considerations I should be paying attention to when deciding between the two? Are there other pads I should be considering? Do any of you recommend one more than the other?

I was also considering running higher temp brake fluid, but if I were to, does that mean I must swap it back out for normal brake fluid when I get home from the track?

Thanks for any help!

[KASM3]

Originally Posted by phil.harlow

Hi Guys,

I know lots of this has been answered before, but I never saw much directly comparing the two. My apologies if I've missed anything obvious and please excuse my naivety.

I will only be doing 5-10 track days a year, and after reading a bit, it sounds like the PFC08 is the most commonly recommended pad I've seen in the forums. However, I can't find anywhere to buy them online. Is the F80 pad size just not available yet? Could anyone point me in the right direction?

However, I am able to find the Pagid RS29s on Turner Motosport, but one of the pluses people mentioned about the PFC08's is that the compound was "compatible" with the OEM pads, so you could swap from OEM and back without having to "clean" the rotor before bedding the pads. Does anyone know if this is the same for the Pagid RS29s? I'd like as quick and easy a procedure for swapping, so any tips are greatly appreciated!

Are there any other considerations I should be paying attention to when deciding between the two? Are there other pads I should be considering? Do any of you recommend one more than the other?

I was also considering running higher temp brake fluid, but if I were to, does that mean I must swap it back out for normal brake fluid when I get home from the track?

Thanks for any help!

+1

[FTS]

I really like RS29s, used them for years. But when I tried PFC08s, I could not deny that they were better for me. Initial bite is much better and the pedal feel remains much more consistent lap after lap and during long braking distances. Because of these two reasons, my braking I think has become more precise.

At the same time, I would have liked to have tried 08 compound in the front and 11 on the rears as many say makes everything and stability of the car even better. Now that I have CCBs, I won't have the chance to try it in the near term, but hopefully someone else will and give us feedback.

[FormulaMMM]

You can leave your upgraded fluid in for the street use no problem.

PFC will give you better initial bite. RS29 is an endurance pad, and you'll get quite a bit more pad life. I'm an RS29 guy, but admittedly have not tried PFC08. Too cheap to exchange pad life for some more bite. Also always been satisfied with the fade characteristics (lack thereof) of RS29. Just an all around great pad.

For as much info as you could possibly want on the subject and an informed recommendation, call Dave Zeckhausen (www.zeckhausenracing.com).

[HP Autosport]

Our experience with RS 29 and PFC 08(not yet available for the F2x F3x F8x) is this:

Both are endurance compounds. There is no back to back data on the same car, driver and track to see which lasts longer.

RS 29 has a higher initial bite where the PFC 08 has smoother initial bite.

Both are not hard on rotors and have excellent modulation and release characteristics.

RS 29 is ceramic based, but with proper rotor cleaning(a few slow-downs on cold pads and rotors) the rotors can be ready for OEM pads follow by a proper bed-in procedure.

[JNoSol]

Originally Posted by HP Autosport

Our experience with RS 29 and PFC 08(not yet available for the F2x F3x F8x) is this:

Both are endurance compounds. There is no back to back data on the same car, driver and track to see which lasts longer.

RS 29 has a higher initial bite where the PFC 08 has smoother initial bite.

Both are not hard on rotors and have excellent modulation and release characteristics.

RS 29 is ceramic based, but with proper rotor cleaning(a few slow-downs on cold pads and rotors) the rotors can be ready for OEM pads follow by a proper bed-in procedure.

We can use the RS29 for the street as well, right? If so, how long do they last on the street with 5-6 track days per year?

[phil.harlow]

Originally Posted by FTS

I really like RS29s, used them for years. But when I tried PFC08s, I could not deny that they were better for me. Initial bite is much better and the pedal feel remains much more consistent lap after lap and during long braking distances. Because of these two reasons, my braking I think has become more precise.

Thanks for the feedback! I'm thinking I'll grab the PFCs if I can find them before next weekend, otherwise start off with RS29s. What's the advantage of the 11s in the rear?

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

You can leave your upgraded fluid in for the street use no problem.

Thank you for that answer! Now I'm curious why it doesn't just come with higher temp fluid stock.

Originally Posted by HP Autosport

RS 29 is ceramic based, but with proper rotor cleaning(a few slow-downs on cold pads and rotors) the rotors can be ready for OEM pads follow by a proper bed-in procedure.

Thank you!! Do you need to do the same cleaning process with the OEM bpads before changing to the RS29s?

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by HP Autosport

RS 29 has a higher initial bite where the PFC 08 has smoother initial bite.

Sure you don't have that backward? Higher initial bite as in greater? That's the opposite of all feedback I've ever heard. Many move from RS29 to PFC for the > initial bite of the PFC.

Originally Posted by JNoSol

We can use the RS29 for the street as well, right? If so, how long do they last on the street with 5-6 track days per year?

I used them on the street and track for a full year in every imaginable weather condition. Honestly I thought they were a fantastic street pad aside from the noise (think school bus loud) and increased dust.

In my experience, street use resulted in no measurable pad wear.

It's been suggested that they might accelerate wear on your rotors some if used on the street. I didn't experience that I don't think.

If you decided to be lazy like me, and leave them in for the year for both track and street use, you should get a year + out of a set with 5-6 track days and street driving. (Depending upon how hard you are on brakes, your local track characteristics, etc.) Really though, prepare to be labeled antisocial because of the noise.

Just a footnote to all of this, Pagid warns against street use. I just got a new RS29 set and the paperwork that comes with the pads says something to the effect of "Not for street use. Do not use on the street under any circumstances."

OP, I intended to mention that the 08 have been discontinued as discussed here http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1096076, so your original question is unfortunately outdated. What I've heard is that PFC is relaunching the line, and many 08 guys have not been enthused with the replacement option(s). For more information and alternatives call Zeckhausen as linked to above. No affiliation, he's just who to call re brakes.

[gthal]

I'm really struggling with brake pads for the track. I had Carbotech XP12/10 last summer but had issues going back and forth with the OEM pads.

Pagid has this comment relative to the RS pads "Pagid brake pads are not compatible with previously used rotors, especially if used with a carbon or Kevlar based race pad." That bugs me. This is why I wanted the PFC pads as no one seems to have issues going back and forth with OEM pads and rotors that aren't fresh rotors.

If PFC doesn't come out with pads soon, I may just use the Carbotechs again as the Pagid pads are also ceramic and, IMO, that is what creates the compatibility issues. Grrrrr...

[FTS]

[QUOTE=phil.harlow;17678744]Thanks for the feedback! I'm thinking I'll grab the PFCs if I can find them before next weekend, otherwise start off with RS29s. What's the advantage of the 11s in the rear?

The 11 compound is for sprint racing, so it comes up to operating temp quicker, supposedly it is a way of slightly changing the initial brake bias

[phil.harlow]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

OP, I intended to mention that the 08 have been discontinued as discussed here http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1096076, so your original question is unfortunately outdated. What I've heard is that PFC is relaunching the line, and many 08 guys have not been enthused with the replacement option(s). For more information and alternatives call Zeckhausen as linked to above. No affiliation, he's just who to call re brakes.

Darn about the 08s for now, thanks for the link. Ok I will give them a call. Thanks for the tip!

Originally Posted by gthal

I'm really struggling with brake pads for the track. I had Carbotech XP12/10 last summer but had issues going back and forth with the OEM pads.

Pagid has this comment relative to the RS pads "Pagid brake pads are not compatible with previously used rotors, especially if used with a carbon or Kevlar based race pad." That bugs me. This is why I wanted the PFC pads as no one seems to have issues going back and forth with OEM pads and rotors that aren't fresh rotors.

If PFC doesn't come out with pads soon, I may just use the Carbotechs again as the Pagid pads are also ceramic and, IMO, that is what creates the compatibility issues. Grrrrr...

Thanks gthal! When you said you had issues going back and forth with the Carbontechs and OEMs, what kind of problems were those and how did you have to mend them?
It sounds like you would prefer the carbontechs over the pagids, is that because of that "new rotor" disclaimer?

Originally Posted by FTS

The 11 compound is for sprint racing, so it comes up to operating temp quicker, supposedly it is a way of slightly changing the initial brake bias

Gotcha, thanks!

Also, does anyone know if I would need to clean the rotors when going OEM > ceramic? (rs29, xp12)
Thanks!

[gsrbri]

Good discussion! I ran Pagid RS19 and RS7 on my E90 M3 for three track seasons (about 12-14 track days per season) with excellent results. Rotors finally were ready for replacement after the third year and the performance on-track was excellent. Also, no delaminating or cracking as is seen on the PFC pads (I put this down to cost difference and QC - you get what you pay for).

I have just purchased the RS29 pads for my F82. First track day on 13 April. Info to follow!

[gthal]

Originally Posted by phil.harlow

Thanks gthal! When you said you had issues going back and forth with the Carbontechs and OEMs, what kind of problems were those and how did you have to mend them? It sounds like you would prefer the carbontechs over the pagids, is that because of that "new rotor" disclaimer?

Judder mainly.

Carbotech has the exact same disclaimer. I believe most manufacturers do if their pads have ceramic components. Most retailers will also tell you it doesn't matter and a proper bedding fixes the issue anyway. My concern is that some pads (PFC) seem to make the back and forth easier and I would prefer to go that route than an endurance pad with ceramic material in it when the OEM pads are a completely different compound. I'm probably just being anal

I might just use my Carbotech pads until they are gone or until PFC has pads (although they won't confirm for me when that might be and seem very vague). It doesn't make sense to spend a lot of money on Pagid pads that also have a ceramic component and also need care on transitioning from OEM to track and back. Having said that, I likely won't buy Carbotech again and will likely get Pagid RS29 next if PFC aren't available at that point.

Originally Posted by gsrbri

Good discussion! I ran Pagid RS19 and RS7 on my E90 M3 for three track seasons (about 12-14 track days per season) with excellent results. Rotors finally were ready for replacement after the third year and the performance on-track was excellent. Also, no delaminating or cracking as is seen on the PFC pads (I put this down to cost difference and QC - you get what you pay for).

I have just purchased the RS29 pads for my F82. First track day on 13 April. Info to follow!

Did you just follow the recommended bedding process with the RS29? Did you do it at the track? After the track day, did you re-bed the OEM pads or just run the RS29 cold for a bit?

[gsrbri]

Just FYI - I can only speak to my experience, but the Pagid pads introduced no rotor deposits that made switching back to stock pads a problem. I pad-swapped for each track even - so I changed pads (stock to race to stock) many, many times. Leave the Pagid's on for the drive home and scrape off the bedded material. Ready for the stock pad. No pulsing...smooth-as-glass every time. Another reason I'll be staying w/Pagid.

[gsrbri]

Sorry...just saw your bedding question. I track-bedded the pad (during hot laps). I used to try to bed them on the early morning ride to the track, but tried a few times w/out doing that and they bed really nicely, during laps, once hot. Even-spread of pad material, nice bluish grey color on the rotor.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by gsrbri

Just FYI - I can only speak to my experience, but the Pagid pads introduced no rotor deposits that made switching back to stock pads a problem. I pad-swapped for each track even - so I changed pads (stock to race to stock) many, many times. Leave the Pagid's on for the drive home and scrape off the bedded material. Ready for the stock pad. No pulsing...smooth-as-glass every time. Another reason I'll be staying w/Pagid.

Originally Posted by gsrbri

Sorry...just saw your bedding question. I track-bedded the pad (during hot laps). I used to try to bed them on the early morning ride to the track, but tried a few times w/out doing that and they bed really nicely, during laps, once hot. Even-spread of pad material, nice bluish grey color on the rotor.

Great info and very helpful!!

I might pick up the RS29 and ditch the Carbotech pads.

[phil.harlow]

Originally Posted by gthal

Judder mainly.

Carbotech has the exact same disclaimer. I believe most manufacturers do if their pads have ceramic components. Most retailers will also tell you it doesn't matter and a proper bedding fixes the issue anyway. My concern is that some pads (PFC) seem to make the back and forth easier and I would prefer to go that route than an endurance pad with ceramic material in it when the OEM pads are a completely different compound. I'm probably just being anal

Thanks for the clarification! I'm def a noob so I really appreciate the feedback!

Originally Posted by gsrbri

Just FYI - I can only speak to my experience, but the Pagid pads introduced no rotor deposits that made switching back to stock pads a problem. I pad-swapped for each track even - so I changed pads (stock to race to stock) many, many times. Leave the Pagid's on for the drive home and scrape off the bedded material. Ready for the stock pad. No pulsing...smooth-as-glass every time. Another reason I'll be staying w/Pagid.

Originally Posted by gsrbri

Sorry...just saw your bedding question. I track-bedded the pad (during hot laps). I used to try to bed them on the early morning ride to the track, but tried a few times w/out doing that and they bed really nicely, during laps, once hot. Even-spread of pad material, nice bluish grey color on the rotor.

Thank you gsbri! I've got some on the way!

[gsrbri]

I'm swapping pads this weekend and will run my first track day on Monday. I'll post my feedback on the brakes ASAP.

I inspected the RS29 pads last night. Look great - front pads are large and beefy, the rears look a bit smaller than expected. I'll also be running Motul RBF 600 fluid.

Can't wait!

[phil.harlow]

I just got my pagids today and the pad measures 12mm thick, but I think I read they should be 10mm. I'm going to try swapping one set on tomorrow just to get familiar with the process and see if they're too tight, but does anyone know how thick they should be?

[slavearm]

Just to confirm, I also swap my RS29s with stock every track day with Zero issues after bedding.

[MasterC17]

Originally Posted by gthal

I'm really struggling with brake pads for the track. I had Carbotech XP12/10 last summer but had issues going back and forth with the OEM pads.

Pagid has this comment relative to the RS pads "Pagid brake pads are not compatible with previously used rotors, especially if used with a carbon or Kevlar based race pad." That bugs me. This is why I wanted the PFC pads as no one seems to have issues going back and forth with OEM pads and rotors that aren't fresh rotors.

If PFC doesn't come out with pads soon, I may just use the Carbotechs again as the Pagid pads are also ceramic and, IMO, that is what creates the compatibility issues. Grrrrr...

Did you experience any fade with the Carbotech's? I ran XP10's all around and it got so bad I lost my brakes. I assume XP12's will solve the overheating issue, but I would hate to drop more $$ and have the same issues.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by MasterC17

Did you experience any fade with the Carbotech's? I ran XP10's all around and it got so bad I lost my brakes. I assume XP12's will solve the overheating issue, but I would hate to drop more $$ and have the same issues.

No noticeable fade with XP12 front and XP10 rear and I'm pretty hard on the brakes .

Did you overheat your fluid (soft pedal) or the pads (hard pedal but no stopping)? I would have thought the XP10 would easily handle this car and it surprises me you had that issue.