How much camber to avoid major shoulder wear with MPS4S tires?

[Niart906]

I track my car 4-5 times a season, but recently I've seen major shoulder wear (particularly on the pass front). I'm still running stock ZCP wheels/tires/EDC suspension and alignment. I'm considering adding camber plates and upping the front camber to around -2.0. Does this sound like enough to help alleviate some of this wear I'm seeing? Or is this just a limitation of the MPS4S tire?

Additionally, since I'll be needing an alignment after the camber plates, I was considering adding a set of Eibach lowering springs to the mix. I enjoyed my H&R sport springs on track with my previous F30 335. But from what I've read on the F80, a lot of springs are actually a step back in performance. Can anyone comment on how Eibachs handle on track?

[MineralWhiteF80]

this is a hard question for people to answer properly because there are quite a few unknown variables needed (tire pressure, driving style, track layout, etc.) to get you the best answer.

Generally, I think -2.0 front camber isn't near enough on the track to keep the outsides of any front tire from wearing unevenly, regardless of proper tire management.

I would start at -3.0 and watch wear characteristics after each session. Using a tire pyrometer to measure inside/middle/outside of the the tire tread/carcass is the best way to see how the tire is working- even temps across the tire being a good indicator of good settings.

I ran MP4S tires at track two weeks ago -3.0 front, -2.1 rear camber and on track it seems to work fairly well, however the track i was on punishes the right front tire since most corners are hard, fast left handers.

A cold tire pressure of 29 psi seemed to work well and keep the tires at 36 psi hot.

At the end of the day, testing, measuring and adjusting is the only thing that will get you the proper result for your individual situation.

[Niart906]

Originally Posted by MineralWhiteF80

this is a hard question for people to answer properly because there are quite a few unknown variables needed (tire pressure, driving style, track layout, etc.) to get you the best answer.

Generally, I think -2.0 front camber isn't near enough on the track to keep the outsides of any front tire from wearing unevenly, regardless of proper tire management.

I would start at -3.0 and watch wear characteristics after each session. Using a tire pyrometer to measure inside/middle/outside of the the tire tread/carcass is the best way to see how the tire is working- even temps across the tire being a good indicator of good settings.

I ran MP4S tires at track two weeks ago -3.0 front, -2.1 rear camber and on track it seems to work fairly well, however the track i was on punishes the right front tire since most corners are hard, fast left handers.

A cold tire pressure of 29 psi seemed to work well and keep the tires at 36 psi hot.

At the end of the day, testing, measuring and adjusting is the only thing that will get you the proper result for your individual situation.

I'm afraid -3.0 might be a but much for the street. I do a lot of street driving as well. Maybe I'll split the difference and see how I like it.

[adc]

I am running -3/-2 camber on Ohlins R/T suspension with Vorschlag plates. Works reasonably well on track, although in my circumstances with this suspension and staggered tires I’d probably need -3.5 at the front.

This setup works extremely well on the street too, no strange wear on the fronts. But you have to control the toe angle.

All this said, you are right about your Michelins. They, along with the Cup2’s if not mistaken, have a softer grippier compound on the outer edges which will eventually wear faster than the rest of the thread.


Personally I have 2 recommendations for you give you track 4-5 times per year.

1. The way to have your cake and eat it too is to have a separate set of track wheels and tires. 4 of them fit nicely in the back seat, and you save the street tires from wearing prematurely. A set of Nittos or equivalent might last you the whole season. Plenty of occasions to buy used off the forum to keep the initial cost escalation low.

2. Absolutely get camber plates. Start at -2.5 for a few events and a few thousand miles, and monitor wear. Then go for -3 if everything looks good, and if it feels good to you.

3. Avoid lowering springs. They are hit and miss (mostly miss).

The stock EDC ZCP suspension is very capable and you can run incredible lap times on it. The extra compliance lets you be creative with curbs for instance, and the added bit of lean in the corners gives you a very good and instinctive indication of how hard the car is working. Just mind the hard side to side transitions and be patient, allow the car to settle into its new attitude once you’ve made a steering input, and keep working with that balance, controlling it, anticipating it. Again, you can do some stupendous laps in it, and a good amount of driver development. Just not on PS4S, they are not budget friendly for track use.

[Niart906]

Originally Posted by adc

1. The way to have your cake and eat it too is to have a separate set of track wheels and tires. 4 of them fit nicely in the back seat, and you save the street tires from wearing prematurely. A set of Nittos or equivalent might last you the whole season. Plenty of occasions to buy used off the forum to keep the initial cost escalation low.

2. Absolutely get camber plates. Start at -2.5 for a few events and a few thousand miles, and monitor wear. Then go for -3 if everything looks good, and if it feels good to you.

3. Avoid lowering springs. They are hit and miss (mostly miss).

I will absolutely be getting a dedicated set of wheels and tires in the future. I've been trying to find a good used set to save some coin. I'd love to step up to some 305's in the rear to help with the oversteer too.

Camber plates are on order. I will start with 2.5 and see how the fronts wear.

I love the overall feel of the stock setup, just wished the front didn't sit so high. That was really my only reason for considering lowering springs.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Niart906

I will absolutely be getting a dedicated set of wheels and tires in the future. I've been trying to find a good used set to save some coin. I'd love to step up to some 305's in the rear to help with the oversteer too.

Camber plates are on order. I will start with 2.5 and see how the fronts wear.

I love the overall feel of the stock setup, just wished the front didn't sit so high. That was really my only reason for considering lowering springs.

Bear in mind that alignments can go out of spec too. Hit too many curbs on track, or potholes on the road, and one side can go out of whack. Which is why if you notice anything weird in wear pattern or car feel, re-check the alignment.

[MineralWhiteF80]

just to add to my last post….

I have my alignment specs where i have the camber plates and toe settings set so that i can simply move the plates between to my two marks to get either my street alignment or track alignment.

I have one mark on the plates for my "track setting" of -3.0 front camber and 0.38 to 0.40 degrees of total front toe out. Then i have a mark for my "street setting" of -2.0 front camber. By moving the plate from -3.0 camber to -2.0 camber, it actually toes the front wheels back in so that i have zero toe in the front. I can change between the two settings in 5 mins or less.

Going forward, Im going to change to run less toe out in the front for my track setting so that when i switch to my street setting, it will give me a little toe in. That way the track setting wont be so eager to turn into a corner, and the street setting will provide a little more stability on the highway.

Rear minimum amount of camber i can get with stock arms is -2.1 degrees and i run 0.3 degrees total toe in

[mpower79]

Originally Posted by Niart906

I'm afraid -3.0 might be a but much for the street. I do a lot of street driving as well. Maybe I'll split the difference and see how I like it.

you dont have afraid, you are sure -3 its to much for street

[NYG]

The compounds in the MPS4S make it vulnerable to this type of stuff even if you get the camber right, in my opinion. Also, I daily drove my M4CS with -2.8 front and never had an issue.

[Suds]

OP, it comes down to how hard you are pushing your car. Also the ratio of the number of track miles to street miles.
I drive my cars on the street with track settings:
M4, -3.2 front -2.0 rear
M2, -3.7 front -2.2 rear

[Niart906]

I decided on -2.8 in the front and nearly -2.0 in the rear. Started with 29psi cold and settled around 36-37psi hot. My front tires wore perfectly, no more roll over, and it turns in noticeably better now too. Hopefully this much camber won't plow through the inner shoulders on the street too fast. I opted for factory toe upfront, so they should wear fine.

Ultimately I'm still on the hunt for a used set of track wheels, but at least with my camber plates I know I won't be ruining my PS4S's in 2 track days anymore.

Originally Posted by Suds

OP, it comes down to how hard you are pushing your car. Also the ratio of the number of track miles to street miles.
I drive my cars on the street with track settings:
M4, -3.2 front -2.0 rear
M2, -3.7 front -2.2 rear

Previously, I think I was pushing too hard on the stock alignment. That combined with the soft shoulders of the PS4S made for a bad combo.

[hC1001]

I didnt find the PS4S tires enjoyable on track... They are good street tires but were easy to overdrive on track. I was using 265F and 305R.

If it were me, just get a dedicated set of track wheels and tires(200TW) and not use the PS4S unless its raining/wet.

Here are my street settings:
Front:
Driverside -2.7
Passengerside-2.7
Front Toe: .02 degree Toe in

Rear:
Driverside -1.7
Passengerside -1.7
Rear Toe: .17 degree Toe in

This did well at the track with A052s but there was still front outer shoulder wear. These tires generally have more outer shoulder wear compared to other tires. I would bump it up to -3 in the front if it was a track car but i compromised on the alignment since its street 90% of the time. The rears wore evenly but i didnt really get a lot of time with the A052s.

[GasBurnlife(landapanda)]

The Michelins have a soft sidewall. Great for the street but will help wear out the outer edge quicker on the track. I think 29 is too low of a pressure for that tire. I'd start it at 32 cold and come to the pits mid first session to adjust pressure. The ps4s like 34-36 hot on my M2. Also toe can contribute to tire wear. I run 0 toe up front.

[r4dr]

Originally Posted by NYG

The compounds in the MPS4S make it vulnerable to this type of stuff even if you get the camber right, in my opinion. Also, I daily drove my M4CS with -2.8 front and never had an issue.

Yes. The outer third seems to be a softer compound, and any reasonably quick driving will shred those due to cornering load. I've thrown out lots of PS4S sets with very little wear on the inner 2/3 due to this issue.

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by MineralWhiteF80

just to add to my last post….

I have my alignment specs where i have the camber plates and toe settings set so that i can simply move the plates between to my two marks to get either my street alignment or track alignment.

I have one mark on the plates for my "track setting" of -3.0 front camber and 0.38 to 0.40 degrees of total front toe out. Then i have a mark for my "street setting" of -2.0 front camber. By moving the plate from -3.0 camber to -2.0 camber, it actually toes the front wheels back in so that i have zero toe in the front. I can change between the two settings in 5 mins or less.

Going forward, Im going to change to run less toe out in the front for my track setting so that when i switch to my street setting, it will give me a little toe in. That way the track setting wont be so eager to turn into a corner, and the street setting will provide a little more stability on the highway.

Rear minimum amount of camber i can get with stock arms is -2.1 degrees and i run 0.3 degrees total toe in

I'm thinking of installing the GC camber plates in the near future - I saw this post and was wondering if you've decided on a new track (instead of street) front toe out value (assume you're sticking with -3.0 camber front and -2.0 camber rear with 0.3 degrees toe in rear)?

[Theruleslawyer]

I just ran the PSS for a day at about -2.5 and 34psi on the fronts. Heat was even with the pyrometer. I started out a little higher psi and the center was running hot. I think maybe the street tires need a little less camber as they just can't generate the G's. I have a set of hankook RS4's on order though. Not the fastest tire from what I hear, but they are cheap. I'm interested to see how they compare.