F82 EDC Base struts vs ZCP EDC

[M3SQRD]

Aeko

ARBs are a key piece of the suspension setup. You can calculate the effective axial stiffness of the anti-sway bar and its motion ratio to calculate its contribution to total wheel spring rate. BMW front strut setups require really stiff ARBs to control roll and, more importantly, control/maintain the camber curve of the front strut (minimize loss of camber). That’s why front ARBs have much stiffer axial rates than rear ARB axial rates - it takes crazy rates before you really start to cause front ARB-induced understeer. My track-prep’ed e46 M3 couldn’t get enough front ARB! It had a large-diameter front bar and a tiny-diameter rear bar which was the stiffest bar you could buy.

The f22 240ix with the B58 is a great car. My only complaint is BMW, and diffsonline, doesn’t offer a LSD. The 235ix has one but not the 240ix. I’ll admit I haven’t dug deeply into why one isn’t available because with the AWD and winter tires it works perfectly for my wife’s needs. Although I’d love to drive one with a LSD. The B58 is a fantastic engine that sounds great and coupled to AWD makes it a monster off the line. You can get close to s55 stock power levels with minimal upgrades and remain emissions compliant.

If you have anymore suspension questions down the road don’t hesitate to ask them in a thread or PM. Have fun fine tuning your car! Track/S is a great guy with extensive car knowledge and mad machining skills. Your 2NH brake setup inside 18” wheels will look awesome!

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Aeko

ARBs are a key piece of the suspension setup. You can calculate the effective axial stiffness of the anti-sway bar and its motion ratio to calculate its contribution to total wheel spring rate. BMW front strut setups require really stiff ARBs to control roll and, more importantly, control/maintain the camber curve of the front strut (minimize loss of camber). That’s why front ARBs have much stiffer axial rates than rear ARB axial rates - it takes crazy rates before you really start to cause front ARB-induced understeer. My track-prep’ed e46 M3 couldn’t get enough front ARB! It had a large-diameter front bar and a tiny-diameter rear bar which was the stiffest bar you could buy.

The f22 240ix with the B58 is a great car. My only complaint is BMW, and diffsonline, doesn’t offer a LSD. The 235ix has one but not the 240ix. I’ll admit I haven’t dug deeply into why one isn’t available because with the AWD and winter tires it works perfectly for my wife’s needs. Although I’d love to drive one with a LSD. The B58 is a fantastic engine that sounds great and coupled to AWD makes it a monster off the line. You can get close to s55 stock power levels with minimal upgrades and remain emissions compliant.

If you have anymore suspension questions down the road don’t hesitate to ask them in a thread or PM. Have fun fine tuning your car! Track/S is a great guy with extensive car knowledge and mad machining skills. Your 2NH brake setup inside 18” wheels will look awesome!

I need a person like you here who understands suspensions as well as you, we would make a good team

About b58 you can always swap subframes from s55 like this friend:

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Start with the lowest hanging fruit. A front sway is quite cheap and very easy to install. If that gets you what you want, then great you are done. If it doesn't, I don't know that springs will help either - you may want to look at a dedicated coilover at that point. Prior to jumping into MCS, I would do some diligence on the $3k segment: 3DM Ohlins R&T, KW V3s, TCK DAs, etc. Based on what I am translating from your posts, it's highly likely one of these options will be satisfactory.

On MCS, ride in a MCS setup before you mentally commit to it. To get the setup to a place that M3SQRD is describing, it's going to cost you around $10k for the parts + install + setup. Unfortunately, optimizing for street performance is going to require the more expensive hardware that MCS offers. This is the reason why I don't just jump out and recommend it for everyone, especially if there is cheaper hardware that will satisfy your requirements.

I picked up a lightly used set of 2WRs for an F8x (F8x and F2x dampers are valved the same) for a great prices and did the install myself. I’m < $5k all in. A new complete set will cost you around ~$7k for the hardware + ~$1.5k for install with alignment so around ~$8.5k total (or look for a used set of dampers and save yourself $2-3k). $10k is a close conservative estimate. It sounds expensive, and it is, but what you get is well worth it!

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Track/S

I need a person like you here who understands suspensions as well as you, we would make a good team

About b58 you can always swap subframes from s55 like this friend:

Unfortunately, there’s a large body of water separating us!

That car looks wicked!! I’d love to have a BMW hatchback. Did you do the engine swap?

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I picked up a lightly used set of 2WRs for an F8x (F8x and F2x dampers are valved the same) for a great prices and did the install myself. I’m < $5k all in. A new complete set will cost you around ~$7k for the hardware + ~$1.5k for install with alignment so around ~$8.5k total (or look for a used set of dampers and save yourself $2-3k). $10k is a close conservative estimate. It sounds expensive, and it is, but what you get is well worth it!

Buying used is not a fair basis for comparison given all the other pricing we've talked about in this thread. I also have heard enough horror stories of buying used suspension that I personally do not even consider it.

$10k is not conservative - I just did a quick screen of current prices and it breaks down in the pic below. You're in it for around $8k worth of necessary parts (and it's only if you're naughty and don't pay tax). That's before considering that if you want the best street ride, you should be looking at a 3W for the additional compression adjustment which is more $$$.

Most people aren't going to install these themselves. I personally don't know of any reputable shop in 2024 that's going to properly install, calibrate, and align this type of setup for $1.5k. Maybe I have just lived in expensive markets so kudos if you have one that you trust which will do it for that price. Plus, you can't just rock up to a regular or even most "enthusiast" shops to handle this type of suspension. I wouldn't trust any shop that doesn't routinely work on and set up track/race cars to handle this right - which means the shop rate is not going to be cheap.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Unfortunately, there’s a large body of water separating us!

That car looks wicked!! I’d love to have a BMW hatchback. Did you do the engine swap?

Everything except engine and gearbox.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Buying used is not a fair basis for comparison given all the other pricing we've talked about in this thread. I also have heard enough horror stories of buying used suspension that I personally do not even consider it.

$10k is not conservative - I just did a quick screen of current prices and it breaks down in the pic below. You're in it for around $8k worth of necessary parts (and it's only if you're naughty and don't pay tax). That's before considering that if you want the best street ride, you should be looking at a 3W for the additional compression adjustment which is more $$$.

Most people aren't going to install these themselves. I personally don't know of any reputable shop in 2024 that's going to properly install, calibrate, and align this type of setup for $1.5k. Maybe I have just lived in expensive markets so kudos if you have one that you trust which will do it for that price. Plus, you can't just rock up to a regular or even most "enthusiast" shops to handle this type of suspension. I wouldn't trust any shop that doesn't routinely work on and set up track/race cars to handle this right - which means the shop rate is not going to be cheap.

I stated what it cost me to install a set of lightly used MCS 2WRs in 2018. Why is it not fair? It’s what I paid and that’s all I was stating. MCS 2WRs come up for sale fairly often in great condition so someone else can do the same thing I did. If people are talking about swapping out spring rates to dial in handling characteristics then I’d think they’d be up for the challenge to install dampers along with the springs. Installing dampers on the F8x is easy even for someone doing it their first time.

I haven’t priced out in exact detail the cost of a 2WR setup for a few years but I bet you can still get all the hardware you need for my original estimate of ~$7k. You’re also listing retail pricing but I didn’t pay retail for either of my two brand new sets of 2WRs. You absolutely do not need the 3WR dampers to find a compliant street setup. Sure, if you did add independent LSC adjustability, you’d be able to make things even a bit comfortable but, at the same time, you’ve reduced the number of people capable of setting up the suspension properly. If you’re willing to go to a 3WR, why not go all the way to a 4WR with added independent LSR? However, a 2WR is sufficient to dial in a great street setup, nothing more is required. You do you need quick disconnects on the rear dampers. I have three sets of 2WRs and not one set has QDs on the rear. Also, a lot of your miscellaneous items are considerably more expensive than other available options (e.g., end links, rear spring adjusters, helper springs, etc.) but you did forget to include thrust sheets Also, for a street setup you do not need to replace LCABs with monoballs. Vorshlag camber plates are only $574 for MCS and 2.25” dia springs. The GC articulating rear perches are not needed either and a simple $170 rear spring seat and height adjuster with expanding chassis mount is all that’s needed and you’ll never know the difference. GC articulating rear perches make corner balancing and ride height adjustments easier but a regular alignment is all you need for a street car and ride height won’t be adjusted after initially setting it. No one complained about not having a GC articulating rear perch not too long ago (was released in 2018? They weren’t available when I put my f82 set together). ASB bushings aren’t needed either for a pure street setup. I think this shows you can get a complete set of MCS 2WRs for around $7k.

I assumed the install would take 8 hours at $187/hour = ~$1.5k. How long do you think it takes to install a set of dampers with external reservoirs? I can do it in < three hours without rushing, two hours if I pushed, and about 1.25-1.5 hr if I really hustled. I’ve even swapped springs in the paddock in between track sessions in the past. It’s not difficult to setup dampers with remote reservoirs. Actually, it’s easier to adjust remote reservoir dampers than it is adjusting 2-way dampers that have their C adjuster on the bottom of the damper. I stand behind my install estimate and if it’s off, it’s off by no more than a couple $100.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I stated what it cost me to install a set of lightly used MCS 2WRs in 2018. Why is it not fair? It’s what I paid and that’s all I was stating. MCS 2WRs come up for sale fairly often in great condition so someone else can do the same thing I did. If people are talking about swapping out spring rates to dial in handling characteristics then I’d think they’d be up for the challenge to install dampers along with the springs. Installing dampers on the F8x is easy even for someone doing it their first time.

I haven’t priced out in exact detail the cost of a 2WR setup for a few years but I bet you can still get all the hardware you need for my original estimate of ~$7k. You’re also listing retail pricing but I didn’t pay retail for either of my two brand new sets of 2WRs. You absolutely do not need the 3WR dampers to find a compliant street setup. Sure, if you did add independent LSC adjustability, you’d be able to make things even a bit comfortable but, at the same time, you’ve reduced the number of people capable of setting up the suspension properly. If you’re willing to go to a 3WR, why not go all the way to a 4WR with added independent LSR? However, a 2WR is sufficient to dial in a great street setup, nothing more is required. You do you need quick disconnects on the rear dampers. I have three sets of 2WRs and not one set has QDs on the rear. Also, a lot of your miscellaneous items are considerably more expensive than other available options (e.g., end links, rear spring adjusters, helper springs, etc.) but you did forget to include thrust sheets Also, for a street setup you do not need to replace LCABs with monoballs. Vorshlag camber plates are only $574 for MCS and 2.25” dia springs. The GC articulating rear perches are not needed either and a simple $170 rear spring seat and height adjuster with expanding chassis mount is all that’s needed and you’ll never know the difference. GC articulating rear perches make corner balancing and ride height adjustments easier but a regular alignment is all you need for a street car and ride height won’t be adjusted after initially setting it. No one complained about not having a GC articulating rear perch not too long ago (was released in 2018? They weren’t available when I put my f82 set together). ASB bushings aren’t needed either for a pure street setup. I think this shows you can get a complete set of MCS 2WRs for around $7k.

I assumed the install would take 8 hours at $187/hour = ~$1.5k. How long do you think it takes to install a set of dampers with external reservoirs? I can do it in < three hours without rushing, two hours if I pushed, and about 1.25-1.5 hr if I really hustled. I’ve even swapped springs in the paddock in between track sessions in the past. It’s not difficult to setup dampers with remote reservoirs. Actually, it’s easier to adjust remote reservoir dampers than it is adjusting 2-way dampers that have their C adjuster on the bottom of the damper. I stand behind my install estimate and if it’s off, it’s off by no more than a couple $100.

I think we are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one - and that's okay. I think there is enough info + perspective in this thread for people to make a more informed decision on their suspension choice at this point lol

[Aeko]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Aeko
The f22 240ix with the B58 is a great car. My only complaint is BMW, and diffsonline, doesn’t offer a LSD. The 235ix has one but not the 240ix. I’ll admit I haven’t dug deeply into why one isn’t available because with the AWD and winter tires it works perfectly for my wife’s needs. Although I’d love to drive one with a LSD. The B58 is a fantastic engine that sounds great and coupled to AWD makes it a monster off the line. You can get close to s55 stock power levels with minimal upgrades and remain emissions compliant.

If you have anymore suspension questions down the road don’t hesitate to ask them in a thread or PM. Have fun fine tuning your car! Track/S is a great guy with extensive car knowledge and mad machining skills. Your 2NH brake setup inside 18” wheels will look awesome!

Again many thanks, I'll reach out if I need! And my answer to wanting a 240i after my most recent car accident was the x3 M40i. Honestly, for such a big hulking thing it handles surprisingly well. Definitely not anywhere as capable as a 2er or 3/4er but it's lively enough to make it really fun. Mine has an LSD and with the AWD it kicks ass. I can't get it to break traction at all with the stock 245/275s so I'm sure I could put a lot more power down with it if I decide to go down that rabbithole. I love having something very different to my M2 to drive daily because it makes the M2 feel *that* much more special.

Originally Posted by Track/S

I need a person like you here who understands suspensions as well as you, we would make a good team

About b58 you can always swap subframes from s55 like this friend:

I am SO jealous! I would have loved to buy an M140i but apparently the US is a no-go for hatchback sales.