F82 EDC Base struts vs ZCP EDC

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

The Bilstein CS is around $4.7k. I’d take MCS 1WNR over the Bilstein CS 2-way.

My pick for the best “affordable” setup is 3DM’s custom Ohlins R&T Road setup. I have the R&Ts, with softer rates that I selected, on my R56 Mini CS and it’s been an excellent street damper for over a decade. They’re noise free, no harshness, and every 1-2 clicks in rebound (plus a fixed % of compression change with rebound) is noticeable. The main issue for the F8x R&T kit is the original 1305 lbf/in rear spring rate!

If TCK could revalve the Koni’s to handle a 500-600 lbf/in F and 800-900 lbf/in R spring rates then his DA setup could still be competitive with other dual-purpose setups. Still would not be competitive against other track-biased setups on the F8x.

Yeah 3DM is super solid - have some buddies that run their setup and have recommended it to other friends of mine... unfortunately they have also driven my car and once you taste the good stuff it's hard to forget it. But Barry's RTs can take you surprisingly far on track given the price. Once aero is added in there is where I've seen people move onto the more serious stuff.

Supposedly TC has revised it for G8X but still are sticking to the 400 lb front spring. That's definitely a chassis that I'd spring up for given the weight increase. They're in the seat-time category in my mind, any competitive TT/TA and you pretty much have to go with a high end setup.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Yeah 3DM is super solid - have some buddies that run their setup and have recommended it to other friends of mine... unfortunately they have also driven my car and once you taste the good stuff it's hard to forget it. But Barry's RTs can take you surprisingly far on track given the price. Once aero is added in there is where I've seen people move onto the more serious stuff.

Supposedly TC has revised it for G8X but still are sticking to the 400 lb front spring. That's definitely a chassis that I'd spring up for given the weight increase. They're in the seat-time category in my mind, any competitive TT/TA and you pretty much have to go with a high end setup.

Absolutely. The Ohlins R&T doesn’t compete with Moton, MCS and their own TTX line. Until you experience a high-end damper, you can’t imagine how superior they are compared to even the best “affordable” dampers. I had a set of Moton 2-ways installed in 2005 on my ‘03.5 e46 M3. I immediately experienced the improved street ride and enhanced track performance (> 2 sec reduction in lap time with James Clay in the passenger seat). The Moton’s I was running in 2005 do not even remotely compare to the MCS 2WR dampers I’m currently running. However, I thought we were talking about TCK and more affordable dampers?

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Absolutely. The Ohlins R&T doesn’t compete with Moton, MCS and their own TTX line. Until you experience a high-end damper, you can’t imagine how superior they are compared to even the best “affordable” dampers. I had a set of Moton 2-ways installed in 2005 on my ‘03.5 e46 M3. I immediately experienced the improved street ride and enhanced track performance (> 2 sec reduction in lap time with James Clay in the passenger seat). The Moton’s I was running in 2005 do not even remotely compare to the MCS 2WR dampers I’m currently running. However, I thought we were talking about TCK and more affordable dampers?

It's all a mixed pot now... at this point the thread has been jacked

But luckily I think we have a solution for those who want to run OE dampers, just run the CS tune on ZCP hardware. I'll also add, avoid lowering the car on stock dampers. I did this at one point, convinced myself it was great, and ended up with what felt like ineffective shocks.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

It's all a mixed pot now... at this point the thread has been jacked

But luckily I think we have a solution for those who want to run OE dampers, just run the CS tune on ZCP hardware. I'll also add, avoid lowering the car on stock dampers. I did this at one point, convinced myself it was great, and ended up with what felt like ineffective shocks.

Are the CS dampers better than ZCP dampers and CS dampers are not readily available OR is the ZCP damper better and/or equal to CS dampers?

Yeah, I don’t understand why people lower their cars on oem dampers, considering BMW already rides the bump stops at stock ride height. People that use lowering springs that gets them a < 1 finger fender to tire gap front & rear and then say their handling AND ride quality are better than stock have no clue what they’re talking about. There’s a reason why BMW recommends only a ~10 mm drop with the MPHAS even though the max drop is 20-25 mm (or whatever the max drops are).

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Are the CS dampers better than ZCP dampers and CS dampers are not readily available OR is the ZCP damper better and/or equal to CS dampers?

Yeah, I don’t understand why people lower their cars on oem dampers, considering BMW already rides the bump stops at stock ride height. People that use lowering springs that gets them a < 1 finger fender to tire gap front & rear and then say their handling AND ride quality are better than stock have no clue what they’re talking about. There’s a reason why BMW recommends only a ~10 mm drop with the MPHAS even though the max drop is 20-25 mm (or whatever the max drops are).

CS uses the ZCP dampers - there isn't any unique suspension hardware for the CS actually. It's ZCP dampers, ZCP rear sway, and a Base front sway. Springs are a mix of Base and ZCP depending on 3 vs 4. The CS just runs a model specific damping tune (which can be coded onto any ZCP) that accounts for the additional front end softness and also improves the damping in a very noticeable way - really how F8X should have come from factory considering the hardware is not bespoke.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

CS uses the ZCP dampers - there isn't any unique suspension hardware for the CS actually. It's ZCP dampers, ZCP rear sway, and a Base front sway. Springs are a mix of Base and ZCP depending on 3 vs 4. The CS just runs a model specific damping tune (which can be coded onto any ZCP) that accounts for the additional front end softness and also improves the damping in a very noticeable way - really how F8X should have come from factory considering the hardware is not bespoke.

Interesting. I was aware of the springs, sway bars and CS specific coding but not the dampers being the same. So CS and ZCP dampers have the same part numbers? You’re right. The base model suspension could have been considerably better for little or no cost.

[Aeko]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Interesting. I was aware of the springs, sway bars and CS specific coding but not the dampers being the same. So CS and ZCP dampers have the same part numbers? You’re right. The base model suspension could have been considerably better for little or no cost.

Correct, CS uses ZCP dampers on all F8x.

ZCP dampers are back on the M2, the ride no longer makes me hit my head against the roof, so I'm happy for now. If I move somewhere with better roads I might look at the KW or B16 again but for now Houston roads make that a terrible idea.

FWIW you may not understand HOW bad the roads are here. �� Houston is literally built on a swamp. It's not just "oh there's potholes" every single road has a different surface, material, angle, construction method, crown, and issue unique to that area. The ground shifts monthly and there are constantly potholes forming and moving due to standing water and rain, as well as the water being removed from the water table causing it to shift. One road down from where I live, the ground shifted so much in a few days the pipe going up to the manhole was sticking 18 inches out of the ground *in the middle of the road*. The highways are typically not better as they are basically massive blocks of concrete that are anywhere from 10 to 30' between expansion joints, and each slab is leveled a few degrees up or down which plays hell with tight low speed. Then, some roads are repaved but have issues with the subgrade causing massive 3-4" deep ruts in roads that were resurfaced less than a year ago.

To your point, I understand the comments about EDC and that it's a very general and not specific solution and mostly does dynamic adjustments, not necessarily just comfort. I do like for example, how it mitigates diving under hard braking. However, having manually adjustable dampers is not ideal when the road conditions change dramatically every 3 minutes. There are a few places I can tolerate stiffening the suspension up but it doesn't make any sense to me to spend more time crawling under the car than driving. Accessibility is also an issue for me.

I actually have considered custom setups like Ohlins but I don't think it's the way for me to go for the reasons I outlined above. Are there even any F8x rears that can be adjusted, basically, by just reaching into the trunk? Same thing with both front adjustments.

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Truthfully no one actually cares how suspension works outside of you, me, and the other evangelists here no matter how much we preach..

Your avg M car driver just cares about if it feels good, can they be quick on it, and how does it impact their budget. Hence why I think both TCK and Bilstein CS (my other underdog pick) are two underrated suspensions that are favorable to feel, quick, and budget.

It's hard to blame them when a lot of suspension companies don't really have an interest in telling you how the suspension is actually configured, much less giving you hard data. Every single person I have talked to, watched videos on, or read articles about has different philosophies about suspension setups. Why should anyone care when suspension is an immensely involved topic to a newcomer and all they know and care about is feel, speed, and budget?

[M3SQRD]

Glad to hear your suspension is riding better. Does “zcp dampers are back on the M2” mean front and rear are now both zcp dampers? I believe you said you had a mixed zcp/non-zcp setup previously. You had the Evolve/Bilstein B6 installed before this, correct?

I didn’t doubt your descriptions of road conditions in Houston. Unfortunately, roads along with the rest of our infrastructure is bad everywhere.

You do not need to continuously adjust damping on adjustable damping. Most people have two settings - one street setting and one track setting. In your case, you’d want to dial out damping to make the car more underdamped (cars are not set to be critically damped at any piston speed) so your suspension absorbs larger bumps with less harshness. You’d spend a little time finding your best comfort settings for DD and best performance settings for the track/autox/mountains but, once there, you’re done adjusting the dampers. F8x rear dampers have no through hole into the trunk so you either reach under, or jack up, the car. Front adjuster location will depend on the type of damper (monotube vs inverted monotube vs twin tube) as well as the type of adjustment (rebound only or rebound and compression). Ohlins R&T use an inverted monotube front strut (adjuster on the bottom of strut) and a rear monotube tube (adjuster on the bottom of the damper). R&T have a dual-flow valve so damping adjustments alter both rebound and compression damping. KW V3 are a twin tube design with compression adjustment on the bottom and rebound adjustment on the top. Rebound adjustment is in the engine bay for the front and at the top of the damper for the rear (no trunk access).

What damper information are you looking for and/or requested from companies? There are two basic groups when it comes to suspension setup - stiff spring vs. soft spring. Talking to a marketing person or a salesperson at most retailers won’t get you the answers you’re looking for. You need to speak with a damper engineer and/or a damper rebuilder to get technical information. I doubt calling Evolve will get you any technical information. Based on Evolve’s responses in the Evolve/Bilstein B6 thread are always the same - we’ve made the comfort setting more comfortable and the sport+ setting with more performance. It was a “build to spec” relationship between Bilstein and Evolve and I bet Evolve’s specs were along the lines “relative to your B6 damper, make the comfort setting more comfy and the sport+ setting more sporty for any lowering spring on the market”. They do push the MSS springs saying they’re the best match for the Evolve/Bilstein B6 damper so perhaps the MSS springs were the baseline for the damper design; however, MSS will not release any stiffness data. Is your final comment directed at damper companies or retail dealers or the end user/customer or a combo?

[Aeko]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Glad to hear your suspension is riding better. Does “zcp dampers are back on the M2” mean front and rear are now both zcp dampers? I believe you said you had a mixed zcp/non-zcp setup previously. You had the Evolve/Bilstein B6 installed before this, correct?

I didn’t doubt your descriptions of road conditions in Houston. Unfortunately, roads along with the rest of our infrastructure is bad everywhere.

You do not need to continuously adjust damping on adjustable damping. Most people have two settings - one street setting and one track setting.

What damper information are you looking for and/or requested from companies? Is your final comment directed at damper companies or retail dealers or the end user/customer or a combo?

My "upgrade" path was M2C stock -> OE EDC (ZCP front / non ZCP rears) -> Evolve B6 -> OE ZCP front/rear. With the fresh new ZCP rears the suspension feels great. It's got a bit of uncontrolled body roll but I'm still on stock springs and sways so I think there's plenty of room to dial that out. I'm not interested in dropping the car much plus I know that will put it closer to the bump stops.

With the difference in driving conditions I face (I currently DD as well as weekend roadtrip the car) I'd have a desire to make the changes a bit more often than I'd be okay with doing with manual adjustments because there are some back roads I visit occasionally. Maybe with the right suspension I won't feel the need to dial it up unless I'm at or going to a track? My other point of comparison is I had an e46 M3 with PSS9s I drove the exact same roads and I did spend a lot of time adjusting them, albeit they were only single adjustable. They handled great but turning the adjustment down too low the car would pretty regularly crash on the stops at anything below a 2 or 3 just doing basic casual driving due to the road conditions. The car was lower than stock but I don't know how much so as I did not set it and I did not have the tools to adjust it so I never changed the height, so that is also a contributing factor.

I get that, and honestly that's what I anticipated before buying the Evolve B6, but I'd have to know what the stock B6 was like as a point of comparison. That's my gripe, there's no quantitative points of comparison. You just have to trust someone correctly interprets your input and will give you what you have in mind, which is difficult when you may not even be correctly describing what you're looking for and you just don't know!

Ideally I'd like to see damping curves so I can understand what the system will be doing at different settings, and on what scale. Some dampers go from linear to digressive, others go from digressive to REALLY digressive. The EDC dampers I believe are set up as a very short, sharp digressive ramp, and the settings just move the height of the ramp. The information can be obtained if you have a shock dyno so I don't see why they wouldn't provide it unless they are trying to be cagey about their products.

One possible solution might be the Nitron R3 that is up and coming, which I believe has the EDC system control the rebound and then has two knobs for high and low speed compression.

[M3SQRD]

Aeko

I understand and appreciate your situation. I still believe there’s a non-EDC option that would give you what you want. It’ll be able to perform in the twistes/mountains without having to make an adjust from your “street” damper settings and not engaging the bump stops.

EDC actively adjusts the rebound damping based on steering input, low frequency (rigid body) pitch, roll and yaw motions as well as individual higher frequency wheel accelerations (velocities). So comfort, sport and sport+ may adjust the max applied damping and tuning, it’s not following a fixed force-velocity (damping rate) curve. Effectively, the “shape of the curve” is being actively changed. The ideal damping rate required is based on direct sensor measurements and/or calculations made with sensor values so it could result in a new dynamic “curve” that’s linear, progressive or digressive wrt the shape of the base “curve”. Conventional non-EDC adjustable dampers are using a fixed curve for each adjustment(s).

The new Nitron elec-TRON R1 (~$5.9k) and R3 (~$8.3-9.6k) dampers will perform wonderfully and outperform the Tractive Road/Track and Motorsport 3-way dampers. Yes, the R3 with conventional LSC and HSC will really help with dialing in comfort. Nitron’s roadsport (~$4.7k) option (vs Tractive Touring) will be a great street damper.

[Aeko]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Aeko

I understand and appreciate your situation. I still believe there’s a non-EDC option that would give you what you want. It’ll be able to perform in the twistes/mountains without having to make an adjust from your “street” damper settings and not engaging the bump stops.

The new Nitron elec-TRON R1 (~$5.9k) and R3 (~$8.3-9.6k) dampers will perform wonderfully and outperform the Tractive Road/Track and Motorsport 3-way dampers. Yes, the R3 with conventional LSC and HSC will really help with dialing in comfort. Nitron’s roadsport (~$4.7k) option (vs Tractive Touring) will be a great street damper.

What would you say your "top 3" recommendations for EDC compatible road-to-track coilovers would be, considering they need to potentially deal with 4-5" bumps and craters (I just hit one yesterday night in my X3... oof. Lucky I didn't crack the wheel). I'm also looking at going 18" wheels as well.

And same question again but non-EDC kits.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Aeko

What would you say your "top 3" recommendations for EDC compatible road-to-track coilovers would be, considering they need to potentially deal with 4-5" bumps and craters (I just hit one yesterday night in my X3... oof. Lucky I didn't crack the wheel). I'm also looking at going 18" wheels as well.

And same question again but non-EDC kits.

18” wheels and tires make a noticeable difference in ride quality with no loss of performance and, actually, improved rear straight-line traction. I ordered my car with the 513M wheel.

I’ll give unlimited budget ($7k-12k) and limited budget options (< $5k). Just an FYI on EDC setups, I only have edc experience on both of my e92 M3s which were switched to conventional dampers after ~10k (non-comp) and ~5k miles (comp). EDC comments are based primarily on conversions with manufacturers, authorized service companies and owner reviews. I was trying to find a solution that would allow me to retain EDC in 2013-2014 on my wife’s ‘12 M3.

All kits - I’d request spring rates of 400 lbf/in F and 700 lbf/in R which are great street rates and allow the setup to run close to stock ride height (or lower up to 1-1.5”).

EDC unlimited budget
1. Nitron elec-TRON R3 with DCU
2. Tractive MS 3-way with ACE
3. Nitron elec-TRON R1

EDC limited budget
1. Nitron elec-TRON Roadsport
2. KW DDC (fixed spring rates)
3. Tractive Touring with ACE (fixed spring rates?)

Non-EDC unlimited budget
1. MCS 3WR (I run the 2WR on three of my cars. Excellent option if you’re willing to give up LSC adjustability)
2. Nitron R3
3. Ohlins TTX 3-way (2-way if you’re willing to give up LSC adjustability)

Non-EDC limited budget
1. MCS 1WNR (stretch budget to 2WNR, if possible)
2. Nitron R1
3. Ohlins R&T Road kit (3DM or Turner or PSI. I have stanyR&T dampers with custom softer spring rates on my R56 Mini CS - smooth dampers with good travel, top choice if budget < $3.5k)

All of the options listed above can have the damping ranges/curves tailored to the 400/700 lbf/in F/R springs and biased towards a street setup. I’d also adjust reservoir gas pressures, if possible, biased towards a street setup, sacrificing some track capability.

My three MCS 2WRs are setup as street biased, dual purpose and track biased. My wife has been spoiled by how well the f22 M240ix rides and now wants all of our cars without MCS setups to handle exactly the same as the 240ix! She wants to get rid of the JRZ RS1’s on her M3

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by Aeko

What would you say your "top 3" recommendations for EDC compatible road-to-track coilovers would be, considering they need to potentially deal with 4-5" bumps and craters (I just hit one yesterday night in my X3... oof. Lucky I didn't crack the wheel). I'm also looking at going 18" wheels as well.

And same question again but non-EDC kits.

Tbh I think given your use case, the simplest option is CS coding and running a reasonable ride height. Stock ZCP dampers with a CS tune are great for the street & backroads and more than capable enough to handle the odd track day. It's an expensive rabbit hole to go down on switching up suspension setups just to realize it wasn't what you wanted.

Given the daily driving conditions you are describing I would stay away from high gas monotubes if you aren't going to the track very often. I live these same-type conditions every single day in Seattle and I won't lie to you, the CS damping was more comfortable from a pure DD perspective. And if you desire an even better ride, then KW DDCs would be your move - there just isn't a better riding suspension setup that I've driven on F8X. Also will be capable enough for the odd track day.

I love my MCS setup but I go to the track a lot so i am comfortable with the compromise on street ride, and would even say it's pretty great considering how they perform on track. But that just isn't how most people determine what an acceptable ride is and there is no avoiding the substantial increase in stiffness that a race damper brings.

[Aeko]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

18” wheels and tires make a noticeable difference in ride quality with no loss of performance and, actually, improved rear straight-line traction. I ordered my car with the 513M wheel.

All kits - I’d request spring rates of 400 lbf/in F and 700 lbf/in R which are great street rates and allow the setup to run close to stock ride height (or lower up to 1-1.5”).

All of the options listed above can have the damping ranges/curves tailored to the 400/700 lbf/in F/R springs and biased towards a street setup. I’d also adjust reservoir gas pressures, if possible, biased towards a street setup, sacrificing some track capability.

Thanks for all the info! I think for right now I want to play with spring rates and an adjustable front sway to give me more experience with changing those independent of the dampers. Since I want to keep the OE EDC for the moment, what rates would you recommend for helping dial out some of the body roll without affecting the ride too much? I was also planning on going 513m (staggered set, not sure if I want to deal with running spacers) after I convert to smaller front rotors w/brackets since I have the 2NH. I'm also slightly wary of losing turn-in feel going 18" which is one of the things I love about the 19" with the PSS.

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Given the daily driving conditions you are describing I would stay away from high gas monotubes if you aren't going to the track very often. I live these same-type conditions every single day in Seattle and I won't lie to you, the CS damping was more comfortable from a pure DD perspective. And if you desire an even better ride, then KW DDCs would be your move - there just isn't a better riding suspension setup that I've driven on F8X. Also will be capable enough for the odd track day.

Noted. Between the feedback from you M3SQRD my options will be KW if I want a better ride later on, and probably Nitron if I decide to go more track focused. Since I *just* got my x3 M40i two weeks ago I haven't been driving the M2 daily as much so the ride is no longer as urgent of a priority, however, if it were any worse I simply wouldn't drive it.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Tbh I think given your use case, the simplest option is CS coding and running a reasonable ride height. Stock ZCP dampers with a CS tune are great for the street & backroads and more than capable enough to handle the odd track day. It's an expensive rabbit hole to go down on switching up suspension setups just to realize it wasn't what you wanted.

Given the daily driving conditions you are describing I would stay away from high gas monotubes if you aren't going to the track very often. I live these same-type conditions every single day in Seattle and I won't lie to you, the CS damping was more comfortable from a pure DD perspective. And if you desire an even better ride, then KW DDCs would be your move - there just isn't a better riding suspension setup that I've driven on F8X. Also will be capable enough for the odd track day.

I love my MCS setup but I go to the track a lot so i am comfortable with the compromise on street ride, and would even say it's pretty great considering how they perform on track. But that just isn't how most people determine what an acceptable ride is and there is no avoiding the substantial increase in stiffness that a race damper brings.

If you set a MCS 2/3WR for the street with a 100 psi reservoir pressure (don’t need high pressure to prevent cavitation on the track and high fluid temps) with street friendly spring rates, you’ll have a ride that is incredibly smooth yet performs well too. I’ve done this with my wife’s 240ix with MCS 2WR dampers, 100 psi can pressures and F/R 500/800 lbf/in spring rates with helper springs (zero/minimal main spring preload). The things that make MCS professional-grade race dampers can be used to make it a phenomenal street damper. The MCS blow-off valve absorbs large bumps like they’re not there. There’s no comparison between street comfort and performance between a properly MCS street setup and the stock CS setup.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Aeko

Thanks for all the info! I think for right now I want to play with spring rates and an adjustable front sway to give me more experience with changing those independent of the dampers. Since I want to keep the OE EDC for the moment, what rates would you recommend for helping dial out some of the body roll without affecting the ride too much? I was also planning on going 513m (staggered set, not sure if I want to deal with running spacers) after I convert to smaller front rotors w/brackets since I have the 2NH. I'm also slightly wary of losing turn-in feel going 18" which is one of the things I love about the 19" with the PSS.

You’re welcome.

Unfortunately, with the stock suspension you’re limited to spring rates available from the lowering springs made to fit the stock suspension mounts. They’re usually around 10-25% stiffer than stock. The higher stiffness springs are for the springs that lower the car too much on the stock dampers. Ground Control offers HAS kits (uses stock dampers) that use linear race springs but I don’t believe they have one for the F8x. You can still play around with adjustable ASBs and see how changing their stiffness changes handling balance and turn-in.

I think you’d be surprised by the turn-in of an 18” 40 series tire. I don’t think you lose much going from 19” 35 series to 18” 40 series. The unsprung weight reduction between the oem 19” setup and oem 18” setup is noticeable and the reduction is easily felt (not felt, actually ) by reduced harshness and impacts. You’d have to be driving extremely aggressive on the street to notice the difference in turn-in between the two setups. Spacers are safe if you buy high quality spacers and properly prep mating surfaces before installing them. I prefer Turner Motorsports spacers and, if Turner doesn’t have what I need, then Future Classic wheel spacers. If you want to discuss spacers feel free to PM me.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by Aeko

Thanks for all the info! I think for right now I want to play with spring rates and an adjustable front sway to give me more experience with changing those independent of the dampers. Since I want to keep the OE EDC for the moment, what rates would you recommend for helping dial out some of the body roll without affecting the ride too much? I was also planning on going 513m (staggered set, not sure if I want to deal with running spacers) after I convert to smaller front rotors w/brackets since I have the 2NH. I'm also slightly wary of losing turn-in feel going 18" which is one of the things I love about the 19" with the PSS.

Noted. Between the feedback from you M3SQRD my options will be KW if I want a better ride later on, and probably Nitron if I decide to go more track focused. Since I *just* got my x3 M40i two weeks ago I haven't been driving the M2 daily as much so the ride is no longer as urgent of a priority, however, if it were any worse I simply wouldn't drive it.

If all you're concerned about is body roll then sways will fix that without affecting the ride. They will not correct pitch or dive under acceleration and braking. I would stay with stock rates on OE suspension. If you're looking for turn-in grip, you technically will have more of that on 18s with the same rolling diameter. If you're looking for turn-in or steering "feel", the stiffer 19s will technically have more response but that can be maintained by tire selection and/or adding front monoballs. FWIW I never found any significant difference going from a 19in 35 profile front to a 18in 40 profile front. You will need to go with F8X blue brakes or have your 2NH machined, the only person I know of that does this on a consistent basis is Track/S.

M3SQRD has good advice all around regardless of how we differ on our recs. Way more technical than I am! I'm more monkey see, monkey do... or monkey feel, monkey speak.

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

There’s no comparison between street comfort and performance between a properly MCS street setup and the stock CS setup.

I started with stock CS and moved to a low spring rate (550/450) + low pressure (run at both 100 and 125 psi) MCS setup prior to upping the spring rate + pressures to my current 700/600 + 150psi. I am in agreement with you that I liked both setups better than stock but no matter how we slice it there is a noticeable increase in overall stiffness and NVH. With me, you're preaching to the choir about how amazing the MCSs are lol but for a lot of people that trade-off is going to make the experienced more compromised and less enjoyable, especially if they're only looking for a little better damping and a little more response than stock.

My honest thoughts on pure day-to-day driving + some spirited stuff (in the mindset of your "typical" car enthusiast), the stock CS is the most livable setup - minimal NVH, glides over rough stuff, and is responsive enough to have a lot of fun with. Slap on some sticky pads and tires and it's quite capable on track too. Floaty? Sure it can be at times but that doesn't always mean slow.

My own setup history on F8X:
1. Base EDC
2. Base EDC + MPHAS
3. CS EDC
4. CS EDC + MPHAS + GTM Sways set stiff (4/4 F, 2/3 R)
5. MCS 2WR, 550/450, 100psi, 125 psi, 175psi, GTM Sways set stiff (4/4 F, 2/3 R)
6. MCS 2WR, 700/600, 150psi, GTM Sways set soft (2/4 F, 1/3 R)

Setups I've driven or ridden in across F8X, E9X, & E46:
1. Bilstein CS
2a. TCK DAs (400/700)
2b. Koni SAs (unknown springs)
3. KW V3
4. KW DDCs (+ DDCs variations using MPHAS springs and Swift springs)
5. KW CS 2W
6. JRZ RS (Unknown on adjustment)
7. MCS 1WR (pretty sure it was Spec E46 reg but not certain)
8. ZCP EDC + MPHAS
9. Countless variations of lowering springs + stock Base and ZCP dampers (my least favorite option here, I do not recommend this route ever these days lol)

Edit: forgot to mention Ohlins RT to the second list.

[Aeko]

Thank you both for your input! I had a feeling that going 18" was going to be the best way forward at the moment, which is why I actually already messaged Track/S about going to 18" on 2NH and I'm working with them on that. I'll follow up if I have more questions on that.

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

If all you're concerned about is body roll then sways will fix that without affecting the ride. They will not correct pitch or dive under acceleration and braking. I would stay with stock rates on OE suspension. If you're looking for turn-in grip, you technically will have more of that on 18s with the same rolling diameter. If you're looking for turn-in or steering "feel", the stiffer 19s will technically have more response but that can be maintained by tire selection and/or adding front monoballs. FWIW I never found any significant difference going from a 19in 35 profile front to a 18in 40 profile front. You will need to go with F8X blue brakes or have your 2NH machined, the only person I know of that does this on a consistent basis is Track/S.

My honest thoughts on pure day-to-day driving + some spirited stuff (in the mindset of your "typical" car enthusiast), the stock CS is the most livable setup - minimal NVH, glides over rough stuff, and is responsive enough to have a lot of fun with. Slap on some sticky pads and tires and it's quite capable on track too. Floaty? Sure it can be at times but that doesn't always mean slow.

4. CS EDC + MPHAS + GTM Sways set stiff (4/4 F, 2/3 R)

Setups I've driven or ridden in across F8X, E9X, & E46:
1. Bilstein CS
2a. TCK DAs (400/700)
2b. Koni SAs (unknown springs)
3. KW V3
4. KW DDCs (+ DDCs variations using MPHAS springs and Swift springs)
5. KW CS 2W
6. JRZ RS (Unknown on adjustment)
7. MCS 1WR (pretty sure it was Spec E46 reg but not certain)
8. ZCP EDC + MPHAS
9. Countless variations of lowering springs + stock Base and ZCP dampers (my least favorite option here, I do not recommend this route ever these days lol)

Quick clarifying questions, on setup 9 are you referring to the non-EDC dampers? And CS = BMW OE CS, and I'm guessing Bilstein CS is the Bilstein B4 or B6 EDC w/CS coding or their Clubsport?

And thankfully putting the EDC in Sport+ takes care of most of the pitch and dive quite well, but not all of the roll, so I think while I'm working on getting the 18" setup together I'll probably investigate anti-rolls. I was considering going the CS Racing route but I haven't looked very hard.

I think your setup #4 is something close to what I would go for, but I don't want a substantial drop. If there were a slightly stiffer kit with stock or maybe 5-10mm drop I'd do that but I think that only the MSS has that kind of minute drop capability?

And totally, I know I'll have to live with some of the floaty just to survive the street conditions around here long enough to get to a track!

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by Aeko

Thank you both for your input! I had a feeling that going 18" was going to be the best way forward at the moment, which is why I actually already messaged Track/S about going to 18" on 2NH and I'm working with them on that. I'll follow up if I have more questions on that.



Quick clarifying questions, on setup 9 are you referring to the non-EDC dampers? And CS = BMW OE CS, and I'm guessing Bilstein CS is the Bilstein B4 or B6 EDC w/CS coding or their Clubsport?

And thankfully putting the EDC in Sport+ takes care of most of the pitch and dive quite well, but not all of the roll, so I think while I'm working on getting the 18" setup together I'll probably investigate anti-rolls. I was considering going the CS Racing route but I haven't looked very hard.

I think your setup #4 is something close to what I would go for, but I don't want a substantial drop. If there were a slightly stiffer kit with stock or maybe 5-10mm drop I'd do that but I think that only the MSS has that kind of minute drop capability?

And totally, I know I'll have to live with some of the floaty just to survive the street conditions around here long enough to get to a track!

In #9 I am indeed referring to EDC with lowering springs. Totally get the confusion here, I should have clarified better:

CS EDC = OE BMW CS
Bilstein CS = Bilstein Clubsport (their track offering)
KW CS = KW Clubsport (their track offering)

I have not been on MSS but I know I’ve been on MPHAS, KWHAS, Eibach, and Swift. Been in others but not 100% sure of the brand. Honestly I don’t think there is a substantial difference between all of them, however, the lower you go on the stock shocks the worse everything gets (damping, ride, etc.) I’d look at MPHAS set high or Eibach V1s if you want to lower the car slightly and have the lowest effect on shock performance.

CSR sways are a good option. Sways are usually the last thing you should do in a setup to fine tune the understeer/oversteer bias. In your case it sounds like you’re basically where you want to be, just want a little less roll which a sway bar will do. Just keep in mind that which ever end of the car you make stiffer will ultimately have less grip - in your case doing a front roll bar will make the front end stiffer and responsive but will understeer more at the limit whereas the rear will have more grip and will oversteer less. This is really on/at the limit stuff tho, for a street car you’re probably only going to notice the improved front end response.

[M3SQRD]

Aeko RugbyBro

My wife daily drives her f22 240ix with MCS 2WR on 500/800 lbf/in springs and she absolutely loves it. She wants all of our cars to ride like the 240ix. It is by far the most comfortable street setup I’ve ever driven. Best part is it outperforms the stock suspension at the same time with better roll and pitch control, zero floaty feeling. With a few clicks closed of R and C damping + increased can pressure and you have a useable track setup.

I’ve lost track of all of the setups I’ve driven both on track and street on e30, e36, e46, e9x and f82 M3/4s, as well as NSX and s2000s, over the past 35 years. Moton, AST, MCS, Nitron, TCK/Koni, Bilstein, JRZ, KW street/motorsport, GC/Koni, Tein, etc. combined with several brands of adjustable ASBs. One thing I’ve noticed with all high-end race dampers is they all have decent street performance even when setup primarily for the track.

Bilstein CS = two-way clubsport non-edc dampers

MSS HAS allows you to run close to stock ride height, I believe, and has a triple rate rear progressive spring. MSS will not provide spring rates at all, no load-deflection curve for progressive rates either. Depending on how different the initial rear rate is relative to the front, MSS could introduce some pitch control issues. AST HAS is around 15 mm min. MP HAS is close to stock at min drop. H&R VTF min is around 25 mm! Regardless of setup, 10-15 mm drop is in the safe range for stock dampers

[Aeko]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

CSR sways are a good option. Sways are usually the last thing you should do in a setup to fine tune the understeer/oversteer bias. In your case it sounds like you’re basically where you want to be, just want a little less roll which a sway bar will do. Just keep in mind that which ever end of the car you make stiffer will ultimately have less grip - in your case doing a front roll bar will make the front end stiffer and responsive but will understeer more at the limit whereas the rear will have more grip and will oversteer less. This is really on/at the limit stuff tho, for a street car you’re probably only going to notice the improved front end response.

Cool, that tracks with what I have in mind. I do at least understand what changes affect grip pretty well in situations that don't involve being heavily into the suspension... but that's what I'm starting to really wrap my mind around.

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Aeko RugbyBro

My wife daily drives her f22 240ix with MCS 2WR on 500/800 lbf/in springs and she absolutely loves it. She wants all of our cars to ride like the 240ix. It is by far the most comfortable street setup I’ve ever driven. Best part is it outperforms the stock suspension at the same time with better roll and pitch control, zero floaty feeling. With a few clicks closed of R and C damping + increased can pressure and you have a useable track setup.

I’ve lost track of all of the setups I’ve driven both on track and street on e30, e36, e46, e9x and f82 M3/4s, as well as NSX and s2000s, over the past 35 years. Moton, AST, MCS, Nitron, TCK/Koni, Bilstein, JRZ, KW street/motorsport, GC/Koni, Tein, etc. combined with several brands of adjustable ASBs. One thing I’ve noticed with all high-end race dampers is they all have decent street performance even when setup primarily for the track.

Bilstein CS = two-way clubsport non-edc dampers

MSS HAS allows you to run close to stock ride height, I believe, and has a triple rate rear progressive spring. MSS will not provide spring rates at all, no load-deflection curve for progressive rates either. Depending on how different the initial rear rate is relative to the front, MSS could introduce some pitch control issues. AST HAS is around 15 mm min. MP HAS is close to stock at min drop. H&R VTF min is around 25 mm! Regardless of setup, 10-15 mm drop is in the safe range for stock dampers

In hindsight knowing what I know now, If I hadn't already gone EDC conversion I'd probably go MCS or something manual. Even if it's not rational, I really wanted the EDC because of the convenience and I concede that it probably would have been "better" to consult on this first. I did try asking questions but didn't come across anyone else with as much hands-on experience as you two. However, I still have learned a lot asking questions around here so I don't regret it!

I am a passionate person, and I go with whatever I think I will enjoy the most even if it's not the "best." So much so I would have also gone the F22 240ix if I didn't want a "full fat" M car to replace my toalled e46 M3. I even drove a black F87C and hated it... but I loved the LBB F87C. I still wish I'd found an LBB 240ix just because the B58 is such an awesome sounding and performing motor and I loved how it handled out of the box, but at the time they were selling for not much less than the M2C were.

That being said I'll look at MCS if I decide to kick EDC.

That sounds about right, which is why I was leaning towards the MPHAS. I think right now my priority is sways -> 18" -> decide on MPHAS or leave it. That's also why I was really wary about the MSS when going with the B6 because it seemed like the triple progressive rates would make it a bit too unpredictable. Again, just based on assumptions because they won't provide the data... but I digress, pun intended.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by Aeko

Cool, that tracks with what I have in mind. I do at least understand what changes affect grip pretty well in situations that don't involve being heavily into the suspension... but that's what I'm starting to really wrap my mind around.




In hindsight knowing what I know now, If I hadn't already gone EDC conversion I'd probably go MCS or something manual. Even if it's not rational, I really wanted the EDC because of the convenience and I concede that it probably would have been "better" to consult on this first. I did try asking questions but didn't come across anyone else with as much hands-on experience as you two. However, I still have learned a lot asking questions around here so I don't regret it!

I am a passionate person, and I go with whatever I think I will enjoy the most even if it's not the "best." So much so I would have also gone the F22 240ix if I didn't want a "full fat" M car to replace my toalled e46 M3. I even drove a black F87C and hated it... but I loved the LBB F87C. I still wish I'd found an LBB 240ix just because the B58 is such an awesome sounding and performing motor and I loved how it handled out of the box, but at the time they were selling for not much less than the M2C were.

That being said I'll look at MCS if I decide to kick EDC.

That sounds about right, which is why I was leaning towards the MPHAS. I think right now my priority is sways -> 18" -> decide on MPHAS or leave it. That's also why I was really wary about the MSS when going with the B6 because it seemed like the triple progressive rates would make it a bit too unpredictable. Again, just based on assumptions because they won't provide the data... but I digress, pun intended.

Start with the lowest hanging fruit. A front sway is quite cheap and very easy to install. If that gets you what you want, then great you are done. If it doesn't, I don't know that springs will help either - you may want to look at a dedicated coilover at that point. Prior to jumping into MCS, I would do some diligence on the $3k segment: 3DM Ohlins R&T, KW V3s, TCK DAs, etc. Based on what I am translating from your posts, it's highly likely one of these options will be satisfactory.

On MCS, ride in a MCS setup before you mentally commit to it. To get the setup to a place that M3SQRD is describing, it's going to cost you around $10k for the parts + install + setup. Unfortunately, optimizing for street performance is going to require the more expensive hardware that MCS offers. This is the reason why I don't just jump out and recommend it for everyone, especially if there is cheaper hardware that will satisfy your requirements.