Anyone else get banned from the G8X section for making fun of its looks?

[Jockey]

Shopping in the used Porsche world, I was shocked to see so many 911s listed as "manual" and when clicked further is was actually a PDK.

Even some dealership listings have been this way.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Shopping in the used Porsche world, I was shocked to see so many 911s listed as "manual" and when clicked further is was actually a PDK.

Even some dealership listings have been this way.

BMW dealerships etc is unfortunately the same way, drives me nuts.

[Tecnniqe]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

This is an awesome read btw guys - I think it just about sums up every M3 to date quite fairly and honestly for the most part.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews.../bmw-m3-guide/

On F8X specifically, this is exactly what I've been saying forever at this point - and where I see F8X heading in its golden years: "Note that after early headaches, the M4 has become one of the most common track tools for weekend warriors. The S55 has proved responsive to modification, robust, and reliable. Any M3 owner looking to extract maximum speed from their HPDEs (without the need to wave by another Porsche 911) should look no further than the F82."

«Whatever the strengths or faults we find with the F82's driving experience, the car is a triumph of modern design. Those voluptuous hindquarters are connected by a swooping waistline to a masculine snout with wide kidney grilles that emphasize the low, taut presence of the M4. When you stand back and take it all in, the whole car looks like it was draped in silk. Several of R&T's younger editors picked the F82 out as the best-looking M3. In time, the rest of the staff might come around.»

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Tecnniqe

"Whatever the strengths or faults we find with the F82's driving experience, the car is a triumph of modern design. Those voluptuous hindquarters are connected by a swooping waistline to a masculine snout with wide kidney grilles that emphasize the low, taut presence of the M4. When you stand back and take it all in, the whole car looks like it was draped in silk. Several of R&T's younger editors picked the F82 out as the best-looking M3. In time, the rest of the staff might come around."

I tend to agree with this sentiment. I think the G8X has the best interior to date though…..by far. I also think the G8X's 826M's are the fucking business. Now, an F82 in a slick wheel/color combination with G8X carbon bucket interior would be pizazz.

[RugbyBro]

Besides just the mechanical disappointment of having a auto vs a DCT, I think the following are the fundamental issues I have with utilizing the auto:

1. It uses the same transmission as every other BMW, and countless other cars in the industry. It lacks specialness - and that’s something people like to buy in “M” cars or any other car branded as “special”. Seriously, why would anyone want to knowingly drive a $90k pseudo-race car that runs the same tranny as a Jeep Grand Cherokee? I think this is something that non-car people can understand - they want to buy “special” and ZF8 just isn’t. And FWIW I think ZF8 makes a ton of sense in the XMs cause those are SUVs and the expectation of an SUV is different.

2. It looks like S58 has an artificially low redline because of ZF8’s limitations. The technical docs show 7600 where as all practical S58 applications are limited to 7200. In my mind there’s only two explanations for this: A. BMW is lying in their technical docs, or B. There is a limiting factor in the drivetrain and by process of elimination this would have to be ZF8. And this is admittedly a moot point as the power drops off after 7200 like S55, but having that extra 400rpm is nice as an overrev zone and fundamentally knowing my “special” engine is limited by a “non-special” transmission would annoy me, especially if I was buying the 6MT. This point isn’t going to matter one bit to non-car people though.

And that’s it, thank you all for attending my TED talk. You can catch me next time on “crabby enthusiast raises fists to the sky”

[minn19]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

So the ZLE was "enthusiast" but you sold it because the trade-off was too high ... that's the product danger of niche vehicles and why there aren't many of them at that price point IMO.

As to what "most enthusiasts want" (be that BMW or no), well, we're gonna find out!


In 2010 I would've agreed with you, but I think the market has fragmented (for lots of reasons, e.g., interest rates being one!) ... and now, hell, there are people who'll buy M purely cuz M, and can afford to!

To be blunt I think brand affiliation is worth more customers now than capabilities, thus the vast amount of decals, badges, & swag.

It's a weird market now and I think new rules are being made ...

Somewhat agreed, I didn't sell it because it was too much of a trade off for me, I knew what it was and loved it for it, unfortunately wrong time of my life to have it. FWIW, they are extremely hard to find now and hold their value very very well.

I'm not trying to define what an enthusiast is. Just what kind I am and from this thread it appears I'm not alone. We are dying a breed though that is for sure.

I'm sure they will sell well because the definition of enthusiast is always changing. Plus people with $$$ always want status symbols even if they aren't really that fun to drive or get used even close to their capabilities.

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

To the first bold-faced point….

…that was exactly what BMW intended. People have been complaining about the stiffness/harshness of M3 suspensions ever since I came to BMW. Those complaints gave way to more compliant suspension tuning over the years. Where the enthusiast welcomed the stiffness, the average buyer did not. I even see people on Porsche forums complaining about the ride and/noise of a 911……trying to soften the ride and dampen the sound/interior noise with the aftermarket. I mean geez…..why even buy a car like a 911 if the first thing you want to do is change its character and dial out the attributes that make it what it is?!?!

To the second bold-faced point….

…that doesn't even happen much of the time with an enthusiast behind the wheel. Most aren't tracking their cars and the freeway warrior isn't really pushing the car either.

Somewhat agreed.......BMW has gotten there suspension tuning wrong ever since the E90 generation IMO except for the CS cars. The regular cars are too soft and floaty with other odd characteristics thrown in. Than most M cars are too harsh with other odd characteristics thrown in. You shouldn't have to get a CS to get a great suspension from BMW.

The X3M comp I drove was way more harsh than my CGTS 4.0. That is mind boggling to me. But it's what you do when you have to control a ton of weight and don't want to really spend the R&D to make a world class suspension anymore. Again, GM, Ford and yes Porsche have been kicking BMWs ass in suspension, chassis and the steering department for a decade now.

I see that to about the 911 and just shake my head. They have a ton of different ways to configure and people still complain. For me it's gotten too heavy and GT like which is why I like the drive of the Cayman/Boxster lineup better. That being said, hopefully I can snag a 992 PDK 911 GTS in a couple of years so my wife and I both have a car to enjoy. I think that would look alright next to the Cayman in my garage.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Now, an F82 in a slick wheel/color combination with G8X carbon bucket interior would be pizazz.

This with the M4 GT4 wheels with some serious tire meat would be it for me. I haven't found another wheel that I've loved more yet.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

This with the M4 GT4 wheels with some serious tire meat would be it for me. I haven't found another wheel that I've loved more yet.

That’s more my style as well. The 513M are probably my favorite wheel design of any kind. I really like the 763Ms as well.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by minn19

it's what you do when you have to control a ton of weight and don't want to really spend the R&D to make a world class suspension anymore.

If you read & listen to the Biermann & other former BMW engineer interviews this is basically what they're saying:

* Kill the V8 for an I6 turbo simply because accounting doesn't want R&D dollars for an M3/4 V8 (and that's why that engine is now reused in the X3Ms, etc)

* Kill the DCT for the ZF8

* Kill the suspension R&D in favor of cheaper standard setups, including killing the rear air suspension in the X5M (i.e., it's an across the entire portfolio move)


I made this point in another thread, but BMW's share price is more/less equal to what it was in the early naughties, with a slightly higher bump around 2015. Now some dude came along and pointed out that for the last number of years BMW has had a variable dividend (the high was 10%) so the flat share price wasn't bad.

I think it's bad ... or at least noticed. Here's why:

(1.) A dividend means a company has nothing to spend its capital on so it returns it to the shareholders. Said differently, given the R&D points above, it implies BMW doesn't think R&D will result in (much) increased sales/marketshare so instead they're cutting costs (i.e., diluting existing products) and returning capital to investors.

(2.) Even if we assume a BMW's variable dividend was a super high 7% every year (and it wasn't) that's a ~190% return over 16 years ... good right? Well, a decent index fund returned in the ~350% sooooo....

NET-NET
BMW's corporate behavior in terms of product & capital management implies they believe their unit sales growth best comes from marginal growth and new designs rather than big new features / feature improvements. Thus profits are best derived from better unit margin than looking for market share increases.

E.g., is the G8x a marginal or drastic improvement over the F8x? Does it have unique tech compared to competitors or similar tech? Is the G8x's core improvements design upgrades or technical upgrades? TBH, I don't know as it's not something I'm interested in ...

Assuming the G8x sells equal or better than the F8x then they're getting the trade-offs right, at least profit-wise ...

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by minn19

That’s more my style as well. The 513M are probably my favorite wheel design of any kind. I really like the 763Ms as well.

Yup the 763Ms are based on the GT4 wheel, but are larger and have less concavity. GT4 checks all my boxes:

1. Motorsport heritage
2. Concavity
3. 18in diameter

I just wish it wasn't such a pain to fit in the front of the street F8Xs (18x11 ET30)

[stein_325i]

I thought this was interesting and noteworthy enough to post here since this thread is sort of like an off-topic forum within itself.

Apparently Acura is bringing back the Integra as a replacement for the ILX, and has announced that it will be featuring a 5-Door Liftback Design (like the original) as well as a rare option these days - a manual transmission. While it will be on a FWD platform, likely based off the Civic, I'm hopeful that they will pair SH-AWD to the transmission (although a little doubtful of this) as well as maybe a hot Type S edition, as the last CTR has shown us that it can be an incredibly fun car.

Definitely more interesting than the typical A3, CLA, 2-Gran Corolla.

[Arcades]

Didn't take a photo of this, someone on Rennlist did. The Glovis Sun passing through Panama Canal.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

I thought this was interesting and noteworthy enough to post here since this thread is sort of like an off-topic forum within itself.

Apparently Acura is bringing back the Integra as a replacement for the ILX, and has announced that it will be featuring a 5-Door Liftback Design (like the original) as well as a rare option these days - a manual transmission. While it will be on a FWD platform, likely based off the Civic, I'm hopeful that they will pair SH-AWD to the transmission (although a little doubtful of this) as well as maybe a hot Type S edition, as the last CTR has shown us that it can be an incredibly fun car.

Ok you now have my attention.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

I thought this was interesting and noteworthy enough to post here since this thread is sort of like an off-topic forum within itself.

Apparently Acura is bringing back the Integra as a replacement for the ILX, and has announced that it will be featuring a 5-Door Liftback Design (like the original) as well as a rare option these days - a manual transmission. While it will be on a FWD platform, likely based off the Civic, I'm hopeful that they will pair SH-AWD to the transmission (although a little doubtful of this) as well as maybe a hot Type S edition, as the last CTR has shown us that it can be an incredibly fun car.

Definitely more interesting than the typical A3, CLA, 2-Gran Corolla.

[img]https://media.gqjapan.jp/photos/6120...integra-19.jpg[/img]
[img]https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/ima...w-teaser_1.jpg[/img]

It has somewhat of a G37 feel to it, but I'll keep my eye on it. The '99 Type R coupe is one of my faves.

[bigj505]

I don't want it if it isn't VTEC

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

It has somewhat of a G37 feel to it, but I'll keep my eye on it. The '99 Type R coupe is one of my faves.

I'll withhold my judgement until I see it.

Considering Acura atm, I am hesitant. They haven't proven that they can make the cars good yet.

[AlterZgo]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I often ponder about what I would've done to my M4 by now had I not opted for the 992. It's still an intriguing car with a lot of value. I wish it weren't so big though.

This is why I got a 992 also instead of a G82. The G82 just seemed gigantic and I wanted to get a smaller, lower slung sports car to replace my F80.

You made the right decision to move to the 992. It is insanely fast completely stock and it has massive rear grip. It feels much quicker than my tuned F80 b/c the rear never loses traction and I can give it full throttle in 1st gear whereas the F80, with TC off, spins like crazy 1st thru 3rd gear even with my 295 width tires. The 992 OTOH feels like being launched from a catapult - sheer acceleration without my F80’s white knuckle drama of the rear end threatening to spin out. Instead, the 992 is completely sure-footed and confidence inspiring like how a 140 hp Miata feels unflappable… except you have 450 hp.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by AlterZgo

This is why I got a 992 also instead of a G82. The G82 just seemed gigantic and I wanted to get a smaller, lower slung sports car to replace my F80.

You made the right decision to move to the 992. It is insanely fast completely stock and it has massive rear grip. It feels much quicker than my tuned F80 b/c the rear never loses traction and I can give it full throttle in 1st gear whereas the F80, with TC off, spins like crazy 1st thru 3rd gear even with my 295 width tires. The 992 OTOH feels like being launched from a catapult - sheer acceleration without my F80's white knuckle drama of the rear end threatening to spin out. Instead, the 992 is completely sure-footed and confidence inspiring like how a 140 hp Miata feels unflappable… except you have 450 hp.

You get me all excited with descriptions like that. I feel like it's going to be heaven on wheels.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by AlterZgo

This is why I got a 992 also instead of a G82. The G82 just seemed gigantic and I wanted to get a smaller, lower slung sports car to replace my F80.

You made the right decision to move to the 992. It is insanely fast completely stock and it has massive rear grip. It feels much quicker than my tuned F80 b/c the rear never loses traction and I can give it full throttle in 1st gear whereas the F80, with TC off, spins like crazy 1st thru 3rd gear even with my 295 width tires. The 992 OTOH feels like being launched from a catapult - sheer acceleration without my F80’s white knuckle drama of the rear end threatening to spin out. Instead, the 992 is completely sure-footed and confidence inspiring like how a 140 hp Miata feels unflappable… except you have 450 hp.

Honestly 450hp does not convey how ridiculously fast the S is - I think most people would be forgiven if they thought it was a Turbo of a prior generation

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Honestly 450hp does not convey how ridiculously fast the S is - I think most people would be forgiven if they thought it was a Turbo of a prior generation

That's how my test drives were - all the normal rules seemed out the window, and it feels like a completely different thing.

[swagon]

Originally Posted by minn19

That’s more my style as well. The 513M are probably my favorite wheel design of any kind. I really like the 763Ms as well.

Did anyone say 513M?! I'll never not post a photo of mine when I see someone mention them.

RugbyBro Richland Forged makes 763M/GT4 wheels in 18" sizes.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by swagon

Did anyone say 513M?! I'll never not post a photo of mine when I see someone mention them.

RugbyBro Richland Forged makes 763M/GT4 wheels in 18" sizes.

Yeah I did think about trying to source to OE rears and use the RFs as fronts. They wouldn’t have the SAI logo tho which I personally think is way cooler than the M branding lol