First Track event prep in GTS

[4play]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Fine, as in reasonably safe to use on the street, warrantied against explosion? Sure. Will they be anywhere near their best on track? No.

My original Cups are over 5 years old and mine was a late build, November '16.

UV and heat degrade tires more. Unmounted, unused, sitting in a climate controlled garage would slow oxidation and aging, but not stop it. No original GTS tires would fit this history at this point anyways.

Similar to the compound hardening after so many heat cycles, which doesn't necessarily correspond to visual wear, you aren't likely to see compound degradation with visual inspection, but it's there with aging alone.

Keep in mind the Cup 2 compound is key to the tire's performance. And the drop off in (especially) Cup 2 performance due to compound degradation is like someone turning out the lights. You don't want to play the age game with Cup 2s or any track tires.

Again, there are reasons why new performance tires 1/2 this age are sold as bargains. Or, ask any race team if they're cool with 6 year old slicks. If you're venturing into a performance environment with your traction challenged factory BMW track car, no matter the driving level, would suggest it's the precisely wrong place & time to skimp on tires.

Safety aside, great way to underappreciate the car as well. Spoil the overall engineering, and potentially disrupt learning/progress.

Fundamentally disagree, but you are certainly entitled to your own opinion. I have driven on "old" (by your definition) Cup 2s and the lap times were nearly identical to those set on "new" Cup 2s the following month. Cup 2s are not race team slicks, so the comparison is pointless.

Michelin (who has a vested interest in selling more tires) even has marketing campaigns centered around the fact that properly stored tires do not age and don't need to be replaced:



Again, how they were stored is important, but 3-4-5 year old unused tires are just fine for track day use and will still continue to perform well.

[cafe_racer]

3-4 track days with no camber plates and this is how my tyres came out. The Millway plates have improved tyre wear and lap times. Amazed that functionality doesn't exist out of the box from BMW.

All I need now are some track wheels, steel brakes, and GT4 aero bits!

[maddmatth]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Fine, as in reasonably safe to use on the street, warrantied against explosion? Sure. Will they be anywhere near their best on track? No.

My original Cups are over 5 years old and mine was a late build, November '16.

UV and heat degrade tires more. Unmounted, unused, sitting in a climate controlled garage would slow oxidation and aging, but not stop it. No original GTS tires would fit this history at this point anyways.

Similar to the compound hardening after so many heat cycles, which doesn't necessarily correspond to visual wear, you aren't likely to see compound degradation with visual inspection, but it's there with aging alone.

Keep in mind the Cup 2 compound is key to the tire's performance. And the drop off in (especially) Cup 2 performance due to compound degradation is like someone turning out the lights. You don't want to play the age game with Cup 2s or any track tires.

Again, there are reasons why new performance tires 1/2 this age are sold as bargains. Or, ask any race team if they're cool with 6 year old slicks. If you're venturing into a performance environment with your traction challenged factory BMW track car, no matter the driving level, would suggest it's the precisely wrong place & time to skimp on tires.

Safety aside, great way to underappreciate the car as well. Spoil the overall engineering, and potentially disrupt learning/progress.

All this based on any actual real scenarios or are you doing some rubber degradation calculations in your head?

The tyres aren't going to explode at this age. If they look fine, drive fine, then they're fine for a reasonably competent driver to just try them out and see how they feel.
If they grip terribly (unlikely) then he can bin them.

If their performance has marginally degraded... who cares, this isn't competitive and they'll get used up anyway and replaced after that.

The race team comparison is silly. Any tiny loss in performance matters to them, it does not matter for a non-competitive track day.

I have driven on 5 year old tyres on a track, I didn't die

[JustAnothaM4]

Finished up my first track event with the GTS in pure street stock form this past weekend at Road Atlanta. All I can say is WOW!!! This car is an absolute beast on track!! It has way more than enough power on the long straights. The CCBs are great but, I would like more bite to give me that confident feeling when braking late. I'm used to running BBKs with steels on PFC01 race pads. I had to lower the tire pressures to around 29/27 PSI cold which ended up at 34/32 PSI hot. I also noticed Sport+ steering is a bit twitchy. The suspension was purposely left on street settings and I can definitely feel the body roll and weight through high speed corners.

Anybody have recommendations on stiffer springs for the oem KWs?

Current Mods:
1. Akrapovic Exhaust and downpipes
2. Larger front swaybar

Future changes…
1. Camber Plates
2. Adjustable SPL/Fall-Line arms
3. Suspension at track height and track aero settings
4. Recaro Profi XL seats and harnesses (sliding around in stock seats sucks! Lol)
5. Alcon or AP BBK (run 18s and cut consumable costs)
6. 18" square wheel setup with wide sticky rubber 295-315.
7. Mono ball front bearings.

[redrumm3]

Originally Posted by Project M4GTS

Finished up my first track event with the GTS in pure street stock form this past weekend at Road Atlanta. All I can say is WOW!!! This car is an absolute beast on track!! It has way more than enough power on the long straights. The CCBs are great but, I would like more bite to give me that confident feeling when braking late. I'm used to running BBKs with steels on PFC01 race pads. I had to lower the tire pressures to around 29/27 PSI cold which ended up at 34/32 PSI hot. I also noticed Sport+ steering is a bit twitchy. The suspension was purposely left on street settings and I can definitely feel the body roll and weight through high speed corners.

Anybody have recommendations on stiffer springs for the oem KWs?

Current Mods:
1. Akrapovic Exhaust and downpipes
2. Larger front swaybar

Future changes…
1. Camber Plates
2. Adjustable SPL/Fall-Line arms
3. Suspension at track height and track aero settings
4. Recaro Profi XL seats and harnesses (sliding around in stock seats sucks! Lol)
5. Alcon or AP BBK (run 18s and cut consumable costs)
6. 18" square wheel setup with wide sticky rubber 295-315.
7. Mono ball front bearings.

All your comments are valid. Your tire wear looks pretty good. The CCB's definitely don't have the initial bite your are used to. I played around with all my settings including the steering to find what I wanted. Dropping to the track settings and compression and rebound adjustments will also be a help with the roll. It's a heavy car however.

After my first weekend at Sebring I had to replace the stock seats. I went with the factory euro seats. The Recaro will make a huge difference. No more holding on!

I think all your future improvements will make a for a better track experience.

Glad to see another Southeast GTS getting some time on the track. I'm sure your were hauling the mail down into Turn 10!

[Jbonly21]

Where's the Op ?

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by 4play

Fundamentally disagree, but you are certainly entitled to your own opinion. I have driven on "old" (by your definition) Cup 2s and the lap times were nearly identical to those set on "new" Cup 2s the following month. Cup 2s are not race team slicks, so the comparison is pointless.

Michelin (who has a vested interest in selling more tires) even has marketing campaigns centered around the fact that properly stored tires do not age and don't need to be replaced:

Again, how they were stored is important, but 3-4-5 year old unused tires are just fine for track day use and will still continue to perform well.

What's with the strawman? 3 years old in optimum storage conditions, 3-4-5 years old and unused, do any original GTS tires fit this description at this point?

The comparison to slicks is valid. Cup 2's aren't slicks, but they share advanced racing compounding --

"Developed for maximum performance on wet or dry surfaces with an endurance racing compound..."

Skim coating, and other compound characteristics make them sensitive to degradation and loss of performance https://motoiq.com/not-all-michelin-...ed-the-same/4/

My "opinion" is that you probably shouldn't track with 6 year old Cup 2's that have been subjected to unknown use, temperature fluctuations, heat cycles, storage (most likely on the car, under load, underinflated at points), etc. This is the reality of virtually all GTS tires at this point. Add to the list 6 year old oil, or 6 year old brake fluid. It's July 2021 and time for any owners with original anything to refresh components subject to degradation before driving the car hard as intended.

I have tracked both new and spent Cup 2. If novice GTS drivers are unwittingly using a spent set -- and again, who can know at this point? -- that's going to be much less enjoyable and less safe. As Cup 2's degrade, braking performance is one of the first things to go, so I'd advise GTS owners on original Cups to take that feedback into consideration.

Your recommendation is that so long as recent hire Randy down at the tire shop gives them a looksie and gives the all clear, they're fine. To each their own.

Originally Posted by maddmatth

All this based on any actual real scenarios or are you doing some rubber degradation calculations in your head?

The tyres aren't going to explode at this age. If they look fine, drive fine, then they're fine for a reasonably competent driver to just try them out and see how they feel.
If they grip terribly (unlikely) then he can bin them.

If their performance has marginally degraded... who cares, this isn't competitive and they'll get used up anyway and replaced after that.

The race team comparison is silly. Any tiny loss in performance matters to them, it does not matter for a non-competitive track day.

I have driven on 5 year old tyres on a track, I didn't die

They're fine, I didn't die, aren't going to explode... You fellas sure set a high bar for track safety!

Yes, real scenarios involving low mileage but old performance tires that were trash.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by Project M4GTS

Finished up my first track event with the GTS in pure street stock form this past weekend at Road Atlanta. All I can say is WOW!!! This car is an absolute beast on track!! It has way more than enough power on the long straights. The CCBs are great but, I would like more bite to give me that confident feeling when braking late. I'm used to running BBKs with steels on PFC01 race pads. I had to lower the tire pressures to around 29/27 PSI cold which ended up at 34/32 PSI hot. I also noticed Sport+ steering is a bit twitchy. The suspension was purposely left on street settings and I can definitely feel the body roll and weight through high speed corners.

Anybody have recommendations on stiffer springs for the oem KWs?

Current Mods:
1. Akrapovic Exhaust and downpipes
2. Larger front swaybar

Future changes…
1. Camber Plates
2. Adjustable SPL/Fall-Line arms
3. Suspension at track height and track aero settings
4. Recaro Profi XL seats and harnesses (sliding around in stock seats sucks! Lol)
5. Alcon or AP BBK (run 18s and cut consumable costs)
6. 18" square wheel setup with wide sticky rubber 295-315.
7. Mono ball front bearings.

Sweet pics, I'll bet the car is a blast at Road Atlanta.

Suggest following your instincts on the CCBs and swapping for iron setup.

Definitely install camber plates, the car needs those.

But before additional mods, go another round with the car lowered, full aero (looks halfway now), and track damper settings so you can determine what's really necessary. Then damper adjustments and optimization from there. I just tested various rebound adjustments and there's so much adjustability there. Found chunks of corner exit traction.

If you want more tire durability & performance, Goodyear Supercar 3R in OE sizes are a great fit, more aggressive than the star spec Cup 2 and the type of tire they should have fitted from the factory imo. I'm on my 2nd set.

[ClubsportJunkie]

Holy hell folks didn't mean to turn my dumb question regarding the Cup 2s into a huge debate. I had a feeling they were done, but wanted a second opinion. I already bought new tires a month ago but they're coming on the sm-10's in 19's that are back ordered till next month. Probably the right call to toss the OEM cup 2s though since they had 7k miles on them and are pretty worn down anyways.

[schnell325]

Originally Posted by Sh4d0w

Holy hell folks didn't mean to turn my dumb question regarding the Cup 2s into a huge debate. I had a feeling they were done, but wanted a second opinion. I already bought new tires a month ago but they're coming on the sm-10's in 19's that are back ordered till next month. Probably the right call to toss the OEM cup 2s though since they had 7k miles on them and are pretty worn down anyways.

No no. Always good to get options from others.

[maddmatth]

Originally Posted by Sh4d0w

Holy hell folks didn't mean to turn my dumb question regarding the Cup 2s into a huge debate. I had a feeling they were done, but wanted a second opinion. I already bought new tires a month ago but they're coming on the sm-10's in 19's that are back ordered till next month. Probably the right call to toss the OEM cup 2s though since they had 7k miles on them and are pretty worn down anyways.

Just your normal forum debate, don't worry about it

Yeah if they're looking worn down, they probably wouldn't have lasted long on track anyway.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by Sh4d0w

Holy hell folks didn't mean to turn my dumb question regarding the Cup 2s into a huge debate. I had a feeling they were done, but wanted a second opinion. I already bought new tires a month ago but they're coming on the sm-10's in 19's that are back ordered till next month. Probably the right call to toss the OEM cup 2s though since they had 7k miles on them and are pretty worn down anyways.

Not a dumb question at all. You asked, but many others will wonder the same and then make a real world decision based upon information here. Whether it's original Cup 2's on the GTS or another track tire age/unknown tire condition scenario. Not about debating, but making sure people have full information.

Do this for long enough, see many tire and brake failures on track, and you become a stickler on those components in particular.

[redrumm3]

Here is some interesting data regarding brake pad changes for the CCB's. James made the switch to Pagids.

https://youtu.be/LXzvq6NADfU