GetBMWParts
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Technical Topics > Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons / Tuning

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-25-2020, 01:53 AM   #1
drgmt
Lieutenant Colonel
Australia
985
Rep
1,885
Posts

Drives: M4
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Australia

iTrader: (1)

Tuning in jeopardy.

" Paul Blamire:
EcuTek Announcement:
Locked Bosch Bootloaders

As you may have seen some news, I would like to clarify the issues present on newly manufactured Bosch MEVD and MG1 ECUs.

We've been aware of a situation brewing in Bosch ECUs initially identified on BMW platforms but potentially affects all Bosch Tricore platforms that are currently being manufactured. We were unsure of the extent of these changes and how it would impact our business and yours, but we are starting to see affected ECUs out in the wild now.
Bosch have updated the security on their most recently manufactured ECUs that means that "bench unlocking" is no longer possible. This issue has been seen on MEVD17 ecus in BMW M4s manufactured in July 2020, and in MG1S024 ECUs in B48/B58 cars manufactured late June, July and August 2020. The exact data of the switchover is unknown but the earliest date we have currently is 25th June.

The result means for newly manufactured cars:
No OBD unlock
No Bench unlock
No bootpin unlock (that's right even opening the ECU to get direct access to the processor does not help)
Not just BMW will be affected, expect to see this coming to the likes of Mercedes etc.
There are no tuning products in existence that can support these new ECUs, it's an industry wide problem, not just an Ecutek problem.
The latest cars will NOT tuneable using an ECU reflash from any company, with any tool.
Older cars are unaffected and will continue to be tuneable

The changes are to the lowest level Bosch code, pre-programmed by Bosch at point of manufacturer (it is not an update to the BMW or manufacturer specific bootloader). So this is not something that can be easily recognised by the ID of the BMW software version, Calibration ID or bootloader version, our best guess is that it affects cars from June 2020 onwards. Our current information is that this new Bosch bootloader is not field upgradeable, so that means that existing ECUs with the older Bosch bootloader cannot be updated to the locked version with something like a dealer reflash (this is good!)

Our long term approach is we're looking for ways to allow programming of these ECUs, but it's a significant challenge which we don't quite know the scale of yet. We are working very hard to find a solution to this and nothing is being ruled out as a potential fix.

In the short term we intend to add the manufacturing date fields to our query tools to try and allow tuners to know with greater certainty what they are dealing with. Our plans for tuning products are already changing as a result of this development, and you may see our focus change subtly to support more existing vehicles on other platforms. We will continue to increase the breadth and depth of our tools and features to really push what is possible in the OEM ECU marketplace.

I realise this is not what you want to hear, but this is the reality at the moment. I would urge tuners across all marques, using all software tools to plan ahead when it comes to their customers and treat them fairly and with respect. None of us expected this to happen and we are all affected in one way or another. Be wary of anyone that claims to have a solution to this problem, until it's independently verified you should assume it's still an issue. When a company does have a solution, this is good news for everyone, as we will know it's not impossible to solve."
Appreciate 4
TopJimmy5392.50
_robert_108.50
      09-25-2020, 05:15 AM   #2
calubi
Private First Class
26
Rep
125
Posts

Drives: F80 M3 Comp
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Ohio

iTrader: (0)

This does not bode well for the G80.

What other manufacturers use this Bosch platform?
Appreciate 0
      09-25-2020, 07:58 AM   #3
CT_M3
Lieutenant
1478
Rep
599
Posts

Drives: F80 M3 DCT Competition
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (0)

I remember Brian @ Kies in one of his vids where he mentions that the new cars have a OTA capability where BMW could potentially lock the ECU too. It does not bode well.

I’m sure a workaround may be found, but tuning may get real costly on the new platforms as well as a higher likelihood of a warranty loss.
Appreciate 0
      09-25-2020, 09:16 AM   #4
Likeanowl
Captain
Likeanowl's Avatar
United_States
1150
Rep
710
Posts

Drives: BMW F80 M3/ Yas Marina Blue
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Ohio

iTrader: (0)

Hack it. If it’s has a computer chip with code it can be hacked/unlocked/worked around. Might take some time but trust me, it can and will be unlocked eventually.
Appreciate 2
AlterZgo1537.50
      09-25-2020, 10:37 AM   #5
calubi
Private First Class
26
Rep
125
Posts

Drives: F80 M3 Comp
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Ohio

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Likeanowl View Post
Hack it. If it’s has a computer chip with code it can be hacked/unlocked/worked around. Might take some time but trust me, it can and will be unlocked eventually.
Sure, but at what cost? At some point, it becomes more economical to just move to a less strict platform, or go with a standalone.

I'm curious how much of this is driven by warranty claims vs safety concerns. Or a plethora of other reasons.
Appreciate 0
      09-25-2020, 12:06 PM   #6
Detoxified
Second Lieutenant
203
Rep
269
Posts

Drives: M2C HS
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (1)

Sounds like there may soon be a push for standalone ECU's as a replacement. Unless I am unfamiliar with restrictions for standalone ecu implementations.

Please chime in if you have anything to add as I am curious about standalone ecu replacements. Ie MoTeC or Holley
Appreciate 2
      09-25-2020, 12:25 PM   #7
Tecnniqe
Sad ///M noises
Tecnniqe's Avatar
No_Country
4197
Rep
1,798
Posts

Drives: ///M4 COMPETITION
Join Date: May 2020
Location: In a Piece of History

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by calubi View Post
Sure, but at what cost? At some point, it becomes more economical to just move to a less strict platform, or go with a standalone.

I'm curious how much of this is driven by warranty claims vs safety concerns. Or a plethora of other reasons.
Might be a emission thing like everything else these days
Appreciate 0
      09-25-2020, 03:20 PM   #8
drgmt
Lieutenant Colonel
Australia
985
Rep
1,885
Posts

Drives: M4
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Australia

iTrader: (1)

Piggybacks and stand-alone ECU look to be the future.

I can't see a practical cost effective work around with this type of "hardware" lock
Appreciate 1
      09-25-2020, 03:22 PM   #9
drgmt
Lieutenant Colonel
Australia
985
Rep
1,885
Posts

Drives: M4
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Australia

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by calubi View Post
This does not bode well for the G80.

What other manufacturers use this Bosch platform?
Mercedes definitely does.
Appreciate 0
      09-25-2020, 03:23 PM   #10
jpy1980
Lieutenant Colonel
jpy1980's Avatar
United_States
1578
Rep
1,973
Posts

Drives: 2015 BMW M3 -Smurfy Blue Vinyl
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
Piggybacks and stand-alone ECU look to be the future.

I can't see a practical cost effective work around with this type of "hardware" lock
Hehe we are just gonna have to upgrade our cars to a supercar like you did if we want more powaaaaa!
Appreciate 0
      09-25-2020, 03:24 PM   #11
drgmt
Lieutenant Colonel
Australia
985
Rep
1,885
Posts

Drives: M4
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Australia

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpy1980 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
Piggybacks and stand-alone ECU look to be the future.

I can't see a practical cost effective work around with this type of "hardware" lock
Hehe we are just gonna have to upgrade our cars to a supercar like you did if we want more powaaaaa!
Appreciate 0
      09-25-2020, 03:28 PM   #12
cpxchewy
Monkey
119
Rep
241
Posts

Drives: 2020 M2C
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: California

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Likeanowl View Post
Hack it. If it’s has a computer chip with code it can be hacked/unlocked/worked around. Might take some time but trust me, it can and will be unlocked eventually.
What's interesting is that they can't even get in with Bootpin access. This is pretty much stating that even injecting code directly at cpu (with soldering a pin probably) before the bootloader level won't work, making it probably unable to boot anything other than the official signed OS.

This is challenge is akin to finding a flaw in the processor chip itself. Not an easy one and if Bosch did it right, might not even be possible. There's a higher chance that it's easier to crack the interface language and swap in an aftermarket ecu and be able to interface with everything than to crack this tbh.

It's possible that they can find an exploit on the higher level but those might get wiped away after a power cycle.
Appreciate 1
drgmt984.50
      09-25-2020, 03:35 PM   #13
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
11421
Rep
10,296
Posts

Drives: E90M/E92M/M4GTS/M4GT4/X5M
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (2)

BMW is hellbent on making it impossible to tune cars
Appreciate 0
      09-25-2020, 03:58 PM   #14
Tecnniqe
Sad ///M noises
Tecnniqe's Avatar
No_Country
4197
Rep
1,798
Posts

Drives: ///M4 COMPETITION
Join Date: May 2020
Location: In a Piece of History

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
BMW is hellbent on making it impossible to tune cars
Which is a shame because at least to my knowledge they've been pretty tuner friendly, at least here
Appreciate 1
SYT_Shadow11421.00
      09-25-2020, 04:10 PM   #15
maddmatth
Major
New Zealand
555
Rep
922
Posts

Drives: F82 M4, E92 335i
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: New Zealand

iTrader: (0)

If these ECUs cannot reasonably be hacked, maybe it is still possible to replace the ECU with one with the older bootloader

That will become a problem for newer cars though where there isn't an equivalent ECU to 'downgrade' to. In that case, hopefully their functions can be replicated well enough in a standalone ECU.

This sucks and is unfair on owners. Fair enough to have tools to detect this and void warranty when people tune the cars, but owners that don't care about or have a warranty should be able to do what they want to the car.
Appreciate 1
SYT_Shadow11421.00
      09-25-2020, 04:35 PM   #16
horsepower_and_hounds
Brigadier General
1836
Rep
4,204
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: USA

iTrader: (9)

What about doing piggyback's until they find a hack....... I am not a fan of them but its better than no tune i guess
Appreciate 0
      09-25-2020, 04:44 PM   #17
SYT_Shadow
///M Powered for Life
SYT_Shadow's Avatar
11421
Rep
10,296
Posts

Drives: E90M/E92M/M4GTS/M4GT4/X5M
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenwich, CT

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by horsepower_and_hounds View Post
What about doing piggyback's until they find a hack....... I am not a fan of them but its better than no tune i guess
They will have to advance a lot to really work. I used a jb4 on my x5 for a couple years and it was terrible
Appreciate 0
      09-25-2020, 04:51 PM   #18
drgmt
Lieutenant Colonel
Australia
985
Rep
1,885
Posts

Drives: M4
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Australia

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by horsepower_and_hounds View Post
What about doing piggyback's until they find a hack....... I am not a fan of them but its better than no tune i guess
They will have to advance a lot to really work. I used a jb4 on my x5 for a couple years and it was terrible
Might be the driving force needed now to improve the technology. Agree though inferior to a flash by a long long way
Appreciate 1
SYT_Shadow11421.00
      09-25-2020, 05:15 PM   #19
horsepower_and_hounds
Brigadier General
1836
Rep
4,204
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: USA

iTrader: (9)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
They will have to advance a lot to really work. I used a jb4 on my x5 for a couple years and it was terrible
Oh I agree...I made great easy power with the JB4 and E40.... but the boost spikes were terrible. I couldn't wait to get a flash. i was just thinking a work around for those who need more power. I am not worried...I am keeping my F82 till it dies
Appreciate 1
SYT_Shadow11421.00
      09-25-2020, 05:43 PM   #20
Wanted_M
Captain
Wanted_M's Avatar
United_States
750
Rep
944
Posts

Drives: Frozen Blue M4CS
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Norcal

iTrader: (2)

Syvecs please develop a P&P S7 like RS3, Syvecs is like a wet dream
https://www.syvecs.com/product/s7-plus/
Appreciate 0
      09-25-2020, 06:48 PM   #21
Fuel-It!
Banned
547
Rep
949
Posts

Drives: M4, M5, M2C, X4M, 440i, etc...
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Phoenix AZ

iTrader: (0)

Seems to only impact the flash tunes. BMS has one of the new cars in hand and said the JB4 remains fully compatible.
Appreciate 0
      09-26-2020, 01:48 AM   #22
drgmt
Lieutenant Colonel
Australia
985
Rep
1,885
Posts

Drives: M4
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Australia

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuel-It! View Post
Seems to only impact the flash tunes. BMS has one of the new cars in hand and said the JB4 remains fully compatible.
The piggy backs will likely always be compatible as they are like ECU bypass.

Flash tuning however won't be available for quite a few years if ever in these platforms.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:02 PM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST