M3/M4 vs W205 C63 AMG

[M3guy3]

I am highly considering getting the new C63 next. For me it comes down to how this car will sound with a after market setup.

[Lups]

I could actually want one, if the manual issue wasn't there. The car looks better than most of the bimmers, so the only real issue (despite the manual) is, that my mother would like it.

That kills all mercs for me till the end of time.

[BMW M3 CRT]

Seems to be an nice turbo engine !

BUT what I don´t understand is that they in the same time claims that this engine should come in the new C63 and also should debut in the all new GT ... this make no sence because the GT should hit the market in the first quarter of 2014 but the new C63 should come in autuum 2014 !?

Something makes no sence ... I know the M177(M178) was between the lines(?) confirmed by AMG officials ... but the mostly well informed Georg Kacher wrotes even in Feb/Mar.2014 about an new C63 with an M157 like the other current AMG cars.

Would it make really no sence to debut the C63 with the "old" engine and go with the brand new M177/178 the GT -> new E63 -> W205 C63 LCI way - to let it be at first an AMG GT special !?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Just_me

MB just presented their new V8 engine. For future cars like GT, next C63 and future Aston Martins.

Thanks for posting. Specs for the GT are right about we expected for the launch car, which is to say very nice for a small sports car. There should definitely be a higher output version offered as well, possibly to come later.

Do keep in mind that the the C63 will get the M177-designated version of this V8, and output is still unknown for that. It's exactly like the M156 vs. M159 situation with today's W204 C63 and outgoing SLS GT. As you know, the latter makes about 100 more hp (on paper, at least - could be less IRL), partly due to unique parts, partly due to the fact that the C63 gets a detuned engine so as not to encroach on other AMG offerings (which no longer use the M156 now, but used to). I am not saying the W205 C63 will be down 100hp from these specs (no chance of that), but I think it will be under 500hp.

Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT

BUT what I don´t understand is that they in the same time claims that this engine should come in the new C63 and also should debut in the all new GT ... this make no sence because the GT should hit the market in the first quarter of 2014 but the new C63 should come in autuum 2014 !?

It makes perfect sense to me because this is an M178, not an M177.

[BMW M3 CRT]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

It makes perfect sense to me because this is an M178, not an M177.

BUT none would really look at this different engine numbers if the engines are not so different as M156 and M159 were ... M177/M178 is an turbo engine, so the main differences would be software and probably an different cooling so that the M178 fits under the smaller hood of the GT.

The M177 is clearly the engine of the future for AMG and could developed for sure 700+hp (simply two times the output of the A45!) ... it will find his way in all x63 cars.

I think its an dilemma for AMG, there is the great change to beat the M3 for the first time, but therefor the new C63 needs minimum 480hp, but than the hp gap to the higher priced GT is getting too small

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT

BUT none would really look at this different engine numbers if the engines are not so different as M156 and M159 were ... M177/M178 is an turbo engine, so the main differences would be software and probably an different cooling so that the M178 fits under the smaller hood of the GT.

It doesn't matter what the real differences are. If the marketing team says they are different then they are. That's it, end of story.

Also, you are heavily speculating on hardware differences. People tried to say the S55 would differ from an N54/N55 mostly by software too. But they were off by a long shot.

This whole thing seems pretty straightforward to me. My advice is to not make it more complicated than it needs to be.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

It doesn't matter the real differences are. If the marketing team says they are different then they are. That's it, end of story.

Also, you are heavily speculating on hardware differences. People tried to say the S55 would differ from an N54/N55 mostly by software too. But they were off by a long shot.

This whole thing seems pretty straightforward to me. My advice is to not make it more complicated than it needs to be.

"Like the 6.2 that came before (and is still in the C63 AMG), the 4.0L M178 will make at least 510 horsepower and 479 pound feet of torque. Those numbers are almost exactly the same as the 6.2 in the Edition 507 C63. The displacement shouldn't really come as a shock, either. Audi uses a 4.0 V8 in a number of high performance models like the S8 and RS7, getting as much as 560 horsepower out of the mill. Look for AMG to change that power output depending on the application."

http://jalopnik.com/this-is-amgs-510...ium=socialflow

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

New W205 C63 motor revealed:

ybbiz34, surely you don't believe that that article is somehow confirming (or for that matter, as far as the quote you posted above is concerned, even suggesting) that the 510hp M178 will be in the W205 C63 are you?

I hope not because he didn't even say that. And it's no surprise he didn't say that since Mercedes didn't either. And I would bet money they never will, too.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT

Seems to be an nice turbo engine !

BUT what I don´t understand is that they in the same time claims that this engine should come in the new C63 and also should debut in the all new GT ... this make no sence because the GT should hit the market in the first quarter of 2014 but the new C63 should come in autuum 2014 !?

Something makes no sence ... I know the M177(M178) was between the lines(?) confirmed by AMG officials ... but the mostly well informed Georg Kacher wrotes even in Feb/Mar.2014 about an new C63 with an M157 like the other current AMG cars.

Would it make really no sence to debut the C63 with the "old" engine and go with the brand new M177/178 the GT -> new E63 -> W205 C63 LCI way - to let it be at first an AMG GT special !?

Historically, the SLS and C63 shared the same motor (M156 and M159 - both 6.2L NA V8s).

Thus, the next C63 and SLS successor (AMG GT) will share the same motor (the 4.0L biturbo V8 M177/M178, which I have presented above).

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

ybbiz34, surely you don't believe that that article is somehow confirming... that the 510hp M178 will be in the W205 C63 are you?

I hope not because he didn't even say that. And it's no surprise he didn't say that since Mercedes didn't either. And I would bet money they never will, too.

Huh? The motor I posted will be utilized by the next C63 (W205) and the AMG GT.

It's the 4.0L biturbo that has been rumored for a long while now. I don't understand what is surprising?

And the article confirmed that as well:

"And those applications will be a large range. Initially, we'll see the M178 in the Mercedes-AMG GT and the next C-Class AMG."

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

Huh? The motor I posted will be utilized by the next C63 (W205) and the AMG GT.

I strongly disagree.

The motor that AMG revealed today is the M178 V8 to be used in the AMG GT. That's it.

It's the 4.0L biturbo that has been rumored for a long while now. I don't understand what is surprising?

The C63 will get the M177. We don't know the output nor any other details about it yet. Well, I mean, yes it will be a 4.0L turbocharged V8 just like the M178. But, the dry sump, for example, could easily be an M178-only feature. Similarly, the power output will likely (almost surely, IMHO) be lower.

And the article confirmed that as well:

"And those applications will be a large range. Initially, we'll see the M178 in the Mercedes-AMG GT and the next C-Class AMG."

Ok, fair enough, he does claim it will be in the C63, but he has no official statement to back that up. Don't fall under the spell of a misinformed journalist passing off misguided conclusions as fact.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I strongly disagree.

The motor that AMG revealed today is the M178 V8 to be used in the AMG GT. That's it.



The C63 will get the M177



Don't fall under the spell of misinformed journalist passing off misguided conclusions as fact.

Well first of all, your first quote of one of my posts is misleading. The article states, at least twice, that this motor will be utilized by the W205.

But, you realize that even if the W205 gets the M177, the M177 and M178 will be virtually identical? Regardless of what it is called, this is nomenclature we're bickering about. Splitting hairs.

Just like the M156 and M159 are virtually identical.

I'm sorry but the W205 C63 is going to produce quite a bit more horsepower than the outgoing version, even in the standard configuration.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

Well first of all, your first quote of one of my posts is misleading. The article states, at least twice, that this motor will be utilized by the W205.

I've amended my post to reflect that he did make the (totally unsubstantiated) claim as you reported. Though I maintain that nothing in the part you include in your post backed up that claim. He was merely comparing the engines there, not asserting how the new one would be used in a real application.

But, you realize that even if the W205 gets the M177, the M177 and M178 will be virtually identical? Regardless of what it is called, this is nomenclature we're bickering about. Splitting hairs.

Just like the M156 and M159 are virtually identical.

I sharply disagree that this is hair splitting. Those two engines (M156 and M159) differ in output by about 100 horsepower. It is absolutely possible and likely that the M177 and M178 will also differ in output. By how much we don't yet know.

I'm sorry but the W205 C63 is going to produce quite a bit more horsepower than the outgoing version, even in the standard configuration.

And I'm sorry you've chosen to assert that as fact with no evidence. I strongly suspect you will be proven wrong in a few months.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I've amended my post to reflect that he did make the (totally unsubstantiated) claim as you reported. Though I maintain that nothing in the part you include in your post backed up that claim. He was merely comparing the engines there, not asserting how the new one would be used in a real application.


I sharply disagree that this is hair splitting. Those two engines (M156 and M159) differ in output by about 100 horsepower. It is absolutely possible and likely that the M177 and M178 will also differ in output. By how much we don't yet know.


And I'm sorry you've chosen to assert that as fact with no evidence. I strongly suspect you will be proven wrong in a few months.

Whoa . . . no need to get so defensive man. Aren't we on the same team? lol.

The M156 and M159 don't differ in terms of design. They are both 6.2L NA V8s - just like the M177 and M178 will be 4.0L biturbo V8s.

That's the point that I'm trying to make.

The largest chunk of the output difference is represented by different software tuning between the motors.

Other power gains were achieved in the SLS Black (M159) due to new camshafts, specially coated bucket tappets, a more efficient intake tract, more-durable crankshaft bearings, and a titanium exhaust system. They beefed up the parts. They didn't redesign a new power plant from the ground up.

I think what you're doing is very misleading. You are making it seem like the M156 and M159 are different engines with different designs.

And you're also making the same misleading argument about the M177 and M178.

The power output between the GT and C63 will of course differ, but their motors will share 90+ percent of the same internals and the exact same design.

I would be willing to bet you $100 PayPal that I'm right.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

Whoa . . . no need to get so defensive man. Aren't we on the same team? lol.

If you look I took great care in post #488 to explain the situation with the M177/M178 as compared to the M156/M159.

My goal is to keep the discussion here on point and free from convolution, confusion, and misinformation. What you are doing by jumping to conclusions is undermining that goal. I am sure you mean well but you are, in fact, making work for me here that isn't necessary.

The fact is that you don't know how much power the C63 will have.

Indeed what you're doing here would be absolutely no different - none - than making claims about the W204 C63's output if Mercedes had announced the SLS AMG before it. And you'd have been wrong - dead wrong.

The M156 and M159 don't differ in terms of design. They are both 6.2L NA V8s - just like the M177 and M178 will be 4.0L biturbo V8s.

That's the point that I'm trying to make.

But it should be beyond clear I am well aware of that.

Why shouldn't we wait until the actual engine to be used in the C63 is announced with the actual numbers for that car? What are we gaining by making purely speculative claims based on the information about a completely separate car and engine?

I think what you're doing is very misleading. You are making it seem like the M156 and M159 are different engines with different designs.

You're out of line sir. I've said nothing of the sort, and in fact I've said the opposite. What I have said is that their outputs differ substantially, which is absolutely key.

I would be willing to bet you $100 PayPal that I'm right.

And I'll bet you one month's car payment to a worthy charity that the W205 C63 will not be powered by a 510hp M178 engine.

Let's put this to bed please: today's announcement is exciting to be sure but it reveals nothing, zilch, zero about the new C63 that we did not already know.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Why shouldn't we wait until the actual engine to be used in the C63 is announced with the actual numbers for that car?

What are we gaining by making purely speculative claims based on the infirm stop about a completely separate car and engine?

By all means we can wait.

What power output do you think the W205 will have as standard?

The W204 debuted with 451 horsepower. The W204 era is coming to a close and it can be had with 507 horsepower.

I absolutely can't see them coming in at less than 480 horsepower standard. I just can't. And I'm entitled to that prediction, which is a conservative one, in my opinion.

We with the M156 motor can unlock a chunk of that difference between the M159 with a mere software tune (see my signature).

I just truly believe that the motor I posted above is the motor you'll be seeing in the W205 - which was my main point. There might be a few parts that are beefed up here and there when it comes to the GT (which might warrant the M177/M178 distinction) but ultimately, the designs are again the same (which would jive with history and the reality of the M156 and M159).

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

You're out of line sir. I've said nothing of the sort, and in fact I've said the opposite. What I have said is that their outputs differ substantially, which is absolutely key.

You said that this M178 will be used in the AMG GT and "that's it."

Well, isn't that misleading if the M177 and M178 are virtually the same/identical aside from maybe a few parts?

I mean technically, if all you were referring to was the M178 designation itself and nothing else (like the entire motor itself) than I have no quarrel with that statement but it smacked of implying that the W205 would have a different engine.

Which is not true. It might have a different designation (M177), but the motor will be the same (4.0L biturbo V8).

Anyway, I think this has largely been a misunderstanding. Just didn't sit right with me how you critiqued my first few posts.

If you want to disagree with power output predictions then that's fine but you don't know the final numbers with anymore certainty than I.

We'll see in a few months though.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

What power output do you think the W205 will have as standard?

...

I absolutely can't see them coming in at less than 480 horsepower standard. I just can't. And I'm entitled to that prediction, which is a conservative one, in my opinion.

I think 480hp is a great guess. I've been saying anywhere from 450hp to 500hp from the beginning and I don't feel confident enough to get any more specific than that.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

You said that this M178 will be used in the AMG GT and "that's it."

No sir. I said that was all the announcement covered. And that statement is absolutely true.

I mean technically, if all you were referring to was the M178 designation itself and nothing else (like the entire motor itself) than I have no quarrel with that statement but it smacked of implying that the W205 would have a different engine.

I think if you had taken more care to read post #488, you would have understood my position from the beginning.

Anyway, I think this has largely been a misunderstanding. Just didn't sit right with me how you critiqued my first few posts.

Likewise your first post did not sit well with me because it made a completely unsubstantiated claim by a journalist sound like fact. I spend countless hours here cleaning up messes caused by such leaping to conclusions so you can appreciate, especially as a moderator, why I take issue with such posts.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by Lups

I could actually want one, if the manual issue wasn't there. The car looks better than most of the bimmers, so the only real issue (despite the manual) is, that my mother would like it.

That kills all mercs for me till the end of time.

...says the girl who DIDNT EVEN ORDER A MANUAL IN HER M4.



Anyway, I am in the same boat...this would be high on the list of options IF it had a manual. By the time I get around to ordering the M3, though, if it has come far enough along it may still be an option (but would have to be quite the car to compensate for the lack of stick)

I also have some concerns about the aesthetics of the vanilla W205. The sloped ass is not my cup of tea. Maybe it'll look better once they 'AMG' it.....

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I think 480hp is a great guess. I've been saying anywhere from 450hp to 500hp from the beginning and I don't feel confident enough to get any more specific than that.

It would be disappointing and highly unusual if it came in at 450. With your technical knowledge (which is impressive) and your knowledge of how other brands operate, I think you know that AMG would not release a C63 with less power than it's predecessor . . . and only a few more horsepower than the new F80 M3.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

No sir. I said that was all the announcement covered. And that statement is absolutely true.

Haha that is a very narrow interpretation that you've constructed now. We do know that a 4.0L biturbo V8 has been confirmed for the W205. Chris Harris confirmed that the GT and W205 would share the same motor (although the respective power outputs would differ).

Do you see how I came to my aforementioned conclusions? Each motor will have a unique designation but I think we are getting a glimpse of what is to come with the W205, based on what we know.

If you want to discuss it further, let's take it to PM and put it to bed here, as you recommended.

I enjoyed the discussion quite a bit.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

It would be disappointing and highly unusual if it came in at 450. With your technical knowledge (which is impressive) and your knowledge of how other brands operate, I think you know that AMG would not release a C63 with less power than it's predecessor . . . and only a few more horsepower than the new F80 M3.

Sure, but I don't feel the need to be any more specific than that. It's just a rough guess and a round number.

Edit: and thanks for the complement, by the way.

Haha that is a very narrow interpretation that you've constructed now.

Interpretation? You watched the same video that I did, right? There was absolutely no mention of the C63 in there.

Interpretation would be this statement you made:

New W205 C63 motor revealed

Which is simply untrue, and is the reason - the one and only reason - why our discussion took place. I think we both understand that now, so yes, time to end it.