Wrong bolts from Millway for their camber plates? Need advice

[dawei213]

I recently got my Millway camber plates streets. I'm ready to install tomorrow and reviewing all the parts when I noticed the screws given to me looks different than what I've seen used by other members installing their Millway streets camber plates. Please see attached picture.

My question - is the separate m8x20 screws with separate bolts and washers supposed to be used in place of the normal m8x20 hex cap screws? If I used the m8x20 screws (on the left side of the picture) with bolts, how would I ever remove it as if I back out the bolt, only the bolt would come out? 

I also didn't get any m8x18 screws either? Should I have gotten it?

If these are the wrong screws, can I just use something like this - https://www.lowes.com/pd/Hillman-8mm...Screw/50088900?

[FaRKle!]

Congrats, you have their just released updated design!

They switched to a studs and nuts setup for mounting to the shock tower.

[dawei213]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

Congrats, you have their just released updated design!

They switched to a studs and nuts setup for mounting to the shock tower.

lol, thanks! But how the hell am I supposed to use the nuts to thread in the bolts? The instructions isn't updated unfortunately.

[dawei213]

A bit of digging, I take it this is how I would use the two nut method to get the stud onto the camber plate -  

After I get the studs onto the plates, I would get it mounted and then use a single washer and single nut on each stud to secure it to the strut tower? I see these are not prevailing/stover lock nuts. Would they not come lose over time due to vibrations? Unfortunately they also didn't provide the torque specs so I don't know if it should be the same as the old bolts or not.


I'm wondering if they made this design change so user won't have to worry about user mixing incorrect bolt length in case it protrudes belong the camber plates. The shorter threaded end of the stud is about the thickness of the plate and the longer threaded end would be used for the nuts which can accommodate both with or without the reinforcement plate.

[knightarmor]

Not a big deal, no issues on mine with the old hardware but I can see why the confusion for you with the new setup. Get yourself a bottle of Vibratite to put on those studs before installing them into the plates and that will give you piece of mind. Only apply Vibratite to the part that goes into the plate.

[dawei213]

Originally Posted by knightarmor

Not a big deal, no issues on mine with the old hardware but I can see why the confusion for you with the new setup. Get yourself a bottle of Vibratite to put on those studs before installing them into the plates and that will give you piece of mind. Only apply Vibratite to the part that goes into the plate.

I don't have any Vibratite but have locktite blue so I'll probably use that. Checking out FaRKle! video, I'll only use the two studs that'll interfere with the sliding mechanism and the OEM bolts for the 3 other outside 3 bolts. Now I'm just waiting to hear back on the torque specs for this nut. I may just get prevailing/Stover locking nuts instead of using the included ones.

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by dawei213

After I get the studs onto the plates, I would get it mounted and then use a single washer and single nut on each stud to secure it to the strut tower? I see these are not prevailing/stover lock nuts. Would they not come lose over time due to vibrations? Unfortunately they also didn't provide the torque specs so I don't know if it should be the same as the old bolts or not.


I'm wondering if they made this design change so user won't have to worry about user mixing incorrect bolt length in case it protrudes belong the camber plates. The shorter threaded end of the stud is about the thickness of the plate and the longer threaded end would be used for the nuts which can accommodate both with or without the reinforcement plate.

Yes, the washer and nut would go on top of the shock tower/reinforcement ring. You're very likely right on why they made this change, especially for F2x/F3x where some people use aftermarket strut braces. I would email Samuel for the torque specs. He's usually pretty responsive.

[USSEnterprise]

Originally Posted by dawei213

I don't have any Vibratite but have locktite blue so I'll probably use that. Checking out FaRKle! video, I'll only use the two studs that'll interfere with the sliding mechanism and the OEM bolts for the 3 other outside 3 bolts. Now I'm just waiting to hear back on the torque specs for this nut. I may just get prevailing/Stover locking nuts instead of using the included ones.

Thank you for sharing this information. I ordered the street plates slated for Sep 27th production run so this is timely.

Please do share any install experiences and torque values in this thread after you complete the install.

[dawei213]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

Yes, the washer and nut would go on top of the shock tower/reinforcement ring. You're very likely right on why they made this change, especially for F2x/F3x where some people use aftermarket strut braces. I would email Samuel for the torque specs. He's usually pretty responsive.

I emailed Millway last night and they got back to me early AM est but that was it. Hopefully they'll get back to me tomorrow AM. All I need is the torque specs. Hopefully they have that info. I may just throw in some blue locktite just to be safe.

I'll definitely follow what you had in your video, just use two of the included nuts/studs for the inner part of the camber plates and 3 OEM bolts for the outer parts.

Originally Posted by USSEnterprise

Thank you for sharing this information. I ordered the street plates slated for Sep 27th production run so this is timely.

Please do share any install experiences and torque values in this thread after you complete the install.

Of course!

[USSEnterprise]

Originally Posted by dawei213

I emailed Millway last night and they got back to me early AM est but that was it. Hopefully they'll get back to me tomorrow AM. All I need is the torque specs. Hopefully they have that info. I may just throw in some blue locktite just to be safe.

I'll definitely follow what you had in your video, just use two of the included nuts/studs for the inner part of the camber plates and 3 OEM bolts for the outer parts.



Of course!

How's it going dawei213 ? Did you get a chance to finish the install? Curious about the drive impressions too.

[dawei213]

Originally Posted by USSEnterprise

How's it going dawei213 ? Did you get a chance to finish the install? Curious about the drive impressions too.

Not yet. I'll be doing it tomorrow during the day and I'll let you know how it goes. Btw, Millway did get back to me on the nuts torque spec - 22 NM or 16.22ft-lb. Since these are just regular nuts, I'll be using Locktite blue on them.

Interestingly enough, the threads in the plate holes are slightly deformed to providing that locking action so just threading them to sit flush to the bottom of the plates should be sufficient and shouldn't come loose over time.

[USSEnterprise]

OK I heard some bad news from Millway this morning. The Sep 27 production run is delayed and now expected to ship October 21 or later.

Anyone know of any other camber plates similar/comparable to the Millway street plates? I see the Turner motorsport ones are uniball instead of the poly bushing, however, Turner seems to re-use the OE thrust bearing which is good.

Any other options other than GC that do better on NVH and are a bit more durable?

[knightarmor]

Personally I'd hold out for the Millways. I've had mine on for about a month now and done one track day and they are exactly what I wanted. Amazingly suspension compliance has improved up front (I'm on EDC dampers with MPHAS) and feel and response is much more direct (despite my disappointment with the Advan Apex tires I'm running). My camber is set to a very conservative -1.8 up front.
One thing I'll point out is your tire noise may get worse on certain road surfaces. My AD08Rs on certain surfaces is almost unbearable, they are a noisy tire to begin with but the change to the Millways really changes the resonant frequency entering the cabin. I noticed the same thing on the Advan Apex on the same sections of road but it's not as bad. I can only imagine how bad it would be with a spherical bearing setup.

[USSEnterprise]

Originally Posted by knightarmor

Personally I'd hold out for the Millways. I've had mine on for about a month now and done one track day and they are exactly what I wanted. Amazingly suspension compliance has improved up front (I'm on EDC dampers with MPHAS) and feel and response is much more direct (despite my disappointment with the Advan Apex tires I'm running). My camber is set to a very conservative -1.8 up front.
One thing I'll point out is your tire noise may get worse on certain road surfaces. My AD08Rs on certain surfaces is almost unbearable, they are a noisy tire to begin with but the change to the Millways really changes the resonant frequency entering the cabin. I noticed the same thing on the Advan Apex on the same sections of road but it's not as bad. I can only imagine how bad it would be with a spherical bearing setup.

Good to know, thanks for sharing.

I have been running GC plates for the last 6 months so very familiar with the NVH penalty. Not worried about tire noise as I run MPS4S (very quiet) for the street and have separate track wheels & tires. I am more worried about clunking and creaking/squeaking/rubbing while turning noises that I get on the GC plates.

[knightarmor]

Gotcha. I can report no noises of any kind with the Millway street versions. I did go ahead and order their poly bushing replacement kit for good measure but seems like I shouldn't need it any time soon

[dawei213]

I installed my camber plates yesterday. The hardest thing on this entire venture is trying to keep the damn spring plate bearing onto the camber plates and aligning the top strut nut through the bushing hole. The only issue I'm facing so far is trying to get leverage on the strut nut when trying to torque it down. As you can see, there isn't much material for the wrench to grasp with the strut nut socket so it's easy for the wrench to slip and not being able to torque it down properly. The amount of exposed strut is much shorter than what Blake's Garage video shows. The amount of exposed strut is equal for both right and left camber plates. As you can compare the 4th and 5th picture, you can see how much lower the 18mm strut socket sits vs in my car with the 5th picture where it sits much higher.

I have a 10mm socket wrench with a flex head coming in on Tuesday - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 - so hopefully that'll be easier for me to be able to torque it down correctly.

[dawei213]

Millway got back to me with their response:

Most dampers is to short and the ball in the camber plates to high. So in most cases it is not possible to use that kind of tool in the picture. Another reason for not using that tool is that you cannot get enough torque on the nut without round the small hex in the dampers. 10mm Hex is way to small to get to 60Nm. We use electric impact gun and torque carefully until you hear that the nut stops rotate. You will hear it on the sound on the machine.

They didn't answer the difference with exposed height of the strut. I have EDC so I won't be using an impact gun. I hope that the socket wrench flex head would work or wonder how shops would normally torque these down.

[USSEnterprise]

Originally Posted by dawei213

I installed my camber plates yesterday. The hardest thing on this entire venture is trying to keep the damn spring plate bearing onto the camber plates and aligning the top strut nut through the bushing hole. The only issue I'm facing so far is trying to get leverage on the strut nut when trying to torque it down. As you can see, there isn't much material for the wrench to grasp with the strut nut socket so it's easy for the wrench to slip and not being able to torque it down properly. The amount of exposed strut is much shorter than what Blake's Garage video shows. The amount of exposed strut is equal for both right and left camber plates. As you can compare the 4th and 5th picture, you can see how much lower the 18mm strut socket sits vs in my car with the 5th picture where it sits much higher.

I have a 10mm socket wrench with a flex head coming in on Tuesday - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 - so hopefully that'll be easier for me to be able to torque it down correctly.

Yes, I find that keeping the thrust bearing seated and aligning the strut through the hole is a two person job. I always get my wife to help.

A regular crescent wrench will not work, you will never get any purchase on the strut nut. You need this:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Also, have you mounted the wheel back on and dropped the car on the ground? That will expose as much of the strut as possible given front end is under load. Alternatively, you can use a jack underneath the rotor to compress the spring and get the strut to poke through.

Also, with the strut bracing installed, it doesn't look like there is any room to adjust for a lot of negative camber???? How much adjustment is exposed with the strut bracing installed?

Millway told me that in a stock car, the math is to divide the desired camber increase by .09. i.e., if you want -2.6 total camber and stock camber is -1.1, you are looking for an additional -1.5 degrees. So -1.5 divided by .09 = 17 mm is where you would set your camber plate to.

With the strut bracing installed, can you see the 17mm line on the camber plate to adjust to? Or do you have to drill out the strut bracing to create room for adjustment? Very much hoping its the former.

[dawei213]

Originally Posted by USSEnterprise

Yes, I find that keeping the thrust bearing seated and aligning the strut through the hole is a two person job. I always get my wife to help.

A regular crescent wrench will not work, you will never get any purchase on the strut nut. You need this:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Also, have you mounted the wheel back on and dropped the car on the ground? That will expose as much of the strut as possible given front end is under load. Alternatively, you can use a jack underneath the rotor to compress the spring and get the strut to poke through.

Also, with the strut bracing installed, it doesn't look like there is any room to adjust for a lot of negative camber???? How much adjustment is exposed with the strut bracing installed?

Millway told me that in a stock car, the math is to divide the desired camber increase by .09. i.e., if you want -2.6 total camber and stock camber is -1.1, you are looking for an additional -1.5 degrees. So -1.5 divided by .09 = 17 mm if where you would set your camber plate to.

With the strut bracing installed, can you see the 17mm line on the camber plate to adjust to? Or do you have to drill out the strut bracing to create room for adjustment? Very much hoping its the former.

Ok, I'm an idiot....

I ordered the regular uniball version instead of the street version by accident. Doing a Google search for these keywords "millway camber plates f80 street", on various site the street version does pop up. I see that Millway's site popped up and there's a link directly to the product. I figure it was also the street version and didn't read the product description in depth or pay attention to what I was looking at (never purchased camber plates before). I thought it was the street version and didn't think much of it when I ordered it. So lesson learned, don't always trust Google! Read read read! This is my fault....

So this explains the strut nut issue since the uniball casing where the nut would sit is higher than that of the poly bushing. That's why the nut sits higher than that of the poly bushing street version as a comparison between the pictures.

Yes, I did use a jack to jack up the suspension and that didn't help.

Guess I'll be going forward with this version now. I took it out for a drive and initial impression is turning is much better. I've set it to -24mm (-30mm max) on the camber plate adjustment so that's why it doesn't seem like there's not much adjustment in the picture. So according to the math, it's an additional -2.16 degrees of camber. Probably more than what I want but I'll have the alignment shop to adjust it next week.

So far no major clunks/sound/etc. Road noise and NVH seems about the same though this was low speed driving around 35 mph. At least with the uniball version I'll be able to dial beyond 3.2 degrees negative camber if I want/need to.

I hope if I can get it dialed into around -3 degrees on both left and right that the adjustment bolts can be reached. At it's present position it's below the strut brace, which will be a pain in the ass if I have one for track and one for street settings. I may just leave it at one setting and leave it at that.

[USSEnterprise]

Originally Posted by dawei213

Ok, I'm an idiot....

I ordered the regular uniball version instead of the street version by accident. Doing a Google search for these keywords "millway camber plates f80 street", on various site the street version does pop up. I see that Millway's site popped up and there's a link directly to the product. I figure it was also the street version and didn't read the product description in depth or pay attention to what I was looking at (never purchased camber plates before). I thought it was the street version and didn't think much of it when I ordered it. So lesson learned, don't always trust Google! Read read read! This is my fault....

So this explains the strut nut issue since the uniball casing where the nut would sit is higher than that of the poly bushing. That's why the nut sits higher than that of the poly bushing street version as a comparison between the pictures.

Yes, I did use a jack to jack up the suspension and that didn't help.

Guess I'll be going forward with this version now. I took it out for a drive and initial impression is turning is much better. I've set it to -24mm (-30mm max) on the camber plate adjustment so that's why it doesn't seem like there's not much adjustment in the picture. So according to the math, it's an additional -2.16 degrees of camber. Probably more than what I want but I'll have the alignment shop to adjust it next week.

So far no major clunks/sound/etc. Road noise and NVH seems about the same though this was low speed driving around 35 mph. At least with the uniball version I'll be able to dial beyond 3.2 degrees negative camber if I want/need to.

I hope if I can get it dialed into around -3 degrees on both left and right that the adjustment bolts can be reached. At it's present position it's below the strut brace, which will be a pain in the ass if I have one for track and one for street settings. I may just leave it at one setting and leave it at that.

Oh dude, that’s a bummer! You made me go back and check my order confirmation to make sure I didn’t do the same as you, ha.

You should still be better off than GC camber plates, since Millway reuses the stock thrust bearing where GC has metal on metal contact due to their own thrust bearing. Keep an eye on it over the next year, my clunking and noises didn’t get worse till about 5-6k street miles and 5-6 trackdays in. That’s about when the GC uniballs really wore out I believe.

Thanks for sharing that there’s enough adjustment visible to get to -2.6 to -2.8. CanAutM3 gave me his alignment specs and I believe he did a ton of data logging to arrive at the best compromise between handling and tire wear at -2.6 camber.

[dawei213]

Originally Posted by USSEnterprise

Oh dude, that’s a bummer! You made me go back and check my order confirmation to make sure I didn’t do the same as you, ha.

You should still be better off than GC camber plates, since Millway reuses the stock thrust bearing where GC has metal on metal contact due to their own thrust bearing. Keep an eye on it over the next year, my clunking and noises didn’t get worse till about 5-6k street miles and 5-6 trackdays in. That’s about when the GC uniballs really wore out I believe.

Thanks for sharing that there’s enough adjustment visible to get to -2.6 to -2.8. CanAutM3 gave me his alignment specs and I believe he did a ton of data logging to arrive at the best compromise between handling and tire wear at -2.6 camber.

Yeah if it comes to having to replace the uniball, I may consider just buying this and convert it to the street version - https://www.millway.se/street-rebuil...er-plates.html

The uniball replacement is about $58 each - https://www.millway.se/ge17-mte.html . Looks like a pain in the ass to replace as well.

[dawei213]

I received the 10mm socket wrench flex head yesterday and tried to torque the nut down. There isn't enough exposed nut to get leverage unfortunately. I'm afraid to round the top of the strut. I'm going to ask the alignment shop to see what they can do.

Question:

1. Do you fellas remove the aluminum brace before taking to the alignment shop? I take it that it'll be fine driving a short distance without it?

2. I've read a few comments mentioning not to use an impact gun on the strut nut with EDC though I've seen DIY guides on this forum that uses an impact gun to get the nut off. Is the risk of using an impact gun that high?