savagegeese F80 M3 review - "One of the best things BMW has done in modern history"

[EXE46]

Originally Posted by THEROK

Youtube is your friend.

The dude in the glasses nailed it. The F8X authentically appeals to those who really care to appreciate the motorsport derived and engineered details throughout.

Sure the C63, RS4, Guila Q, RCF are also wonderful cars, but none of them come close to the durability and reliability of the F8X. It's a huge loss for BMW M fans that Biermann moved over to Hyundai-Kia.

It's too bad he picked the ugliest wheel setup possible on any modern BMW. RVs would be jealous of that aesthetic.

RCF is the most reliable of the bunch, quality build etc. It's the one area where Lexus shines. BMW M cars are not in the same league as far as reliability and durability.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by Salespunk

The people on this board represent the fringes of M division buyers and not the core. Most of the others don't care about steering feel or soul, they want a fast and luxurious daily.

You hit the nail on the head with your whole post but this part really resonated with me.

I was talking cars with my colleagues, some of whom own BMWs at this point in time. They were all raving about how great the M5 is and how I'm stupid for desiring the M2 over it.

Needless to say, they are not traditional car enthusiasts. More just professionals with a high income potential who want the sweetest looking car possible. They had no idea what an E, F, or G-chassis was; what steering feedback is, what "tail happy" means, etc." It really hit me that I truly am in a minuscule minority of BMW clients.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by joshuastein55

I'd love to lease a Giulia QF, but the lack of a manual and reliability does concern me, seems like the 4-cylinder models are less problematic, but I do wish they offered a mid-trim V6 model to go against the C43 and M340.

With my student loans I'm going to defer on the M2/Boxster plans and strongly consider the Giulia for my next DD. The Giulia 4-cylinder looks sweet with the right color/wheels, it has more than adequate power, leases are strong, and the refreshed model's interior is good enough. Ultimately the driving experience comes first for me. I just can't connect with any of the German "sport" sedans. It's sad because I strongly prefer the German interiors, build quality, and overall ownership experience. Then you have Lexus who won't for the life of them redesign the IS/RC.

[Racer20]

I still wonder if all the complaints about the rear end are just due to the DCT. Having a manual transmission forces you to modulate yourself after every shift. You shift, THEN feed in the throttle as power builds. You get instant feedback of how power and grip are building in relation to your throttle and clutch work. Whereas in a DCT, you feed in throttle, THEN the car does . . . something? On gear change and throttle uptake, there's a disconnection between your foot and the power to the rear wheels as the car is making decisions and engaging clutches for you. Even if you are pulling the paddles, you aren't forced to modulate the throttle with every shift as you are in a 6MT.

[CanAutM3]

Not impressed, the reviewers keep contradicting themselves.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

With my student loans I'm going to defer on the M2/Boxster plans and strongly consider the Giulia for my next DD. The Giulia 4-cylinder looks sweet with the right color/wheels, it has more than adequate power, leases are strong, and the refreshed model's interior is good enough. Ultimately the driving experience comes first for me. I just can't connect with any of the German "sport" sedans. It's sad because I strongly prefer the German interiors, build quality, and overall ownership experience. Then you have Lexus who won't for the life of them redesign the IS/RC.

Oh yes, the Giulia even in base form handles beautifully! And the 2020 is coming out with an improved interior and new infotainment. While the 4-cylinder isn't my choice of powertrains for the vehicle, but it certainly isn't offensive and has plenty of power for everyday driving.

If you haven't driven one, the test drive will spoil you and make you feel worse about any other compact sports sedan you drive. It really is a good car, good luck if you go for one!

[moonshine89]

I wonder if it'll be harder to become part of the m club in the future. I feel most here have driven or owned an m car in the past and can really point out the improvements or driven many other sport cars.

I'm currently trying to sell my m3 since it's difficult to take it to an island. But as I get offers for it and drive it everyday, I can't stop doubting my decision to sell it. I keep fantasizing about keeping and making it work on the island.

My point is...I saw this review within the hour of it being posted on YouTube. I too felt let down since I love the channel and I thought he was gonna finish with how amazing the f8x generation is. In the end I felt the conclusion was the F8x generation is for newbie m posers. People that can afford a luxury sports car but aren't hardcore enthusiasts that can "feel" the soul of a car. Maybe I haven't driven enough older generations or sports cars in general....but damn! My m3 makes me climax every time I get on a highway merge. Rippin through the gears with my DCT makes me feel like a frickin F1 driver. On paper it's the most refined and powerful m3 to date. I'm sure it'll change, but what's the grading rubric these days for an m3? Seems to be getting tougher every generation...

[shimmy23]

I dunno about you guys but I want a Patagonia now

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

the car market being flooded with everything fast now due to the reliability of forced induction versus sports cars being distant from other vehicles has caused reviews like this. I liked the review but he was kind of all over the place. Like he contraindicates himself a lot, like make a decision. the tone of the video was as if he was driving a fucking hearse. Lastly he's so apathetic; like suffering from some serious first world problems LOL.

The M car driven without traction control is sure to cause some drama. With it on sure its a neutered product no doubt. IDK why the hellcat was brought up; the M roasts the tires just as well. The e90 has way better steering feel; and honestly I don't feel that fast in the f8x; yet my passengers do. The f80 steering has always never been right for me but I'm used to it now. But this is how cars are now. A 4 door sedan with a stick is the reason I didnt look twice at anything else. Kill the manual and I likely would be in an older car. Idk why people are holding onto the past. I wish they still made v10 sticks; I dont care if teslas dust me off the line.

BMW just doesn't make distant cars anymore they are all the same

x1,2,3,4,5,6,7 with their m40i variants and M variants
m850i, m8 the fuck
m340, m3

the day of the actual M car is dead I believe.

Nonetheless the f8x is one the the most best styled vehicles that still allows you to row gears. all the new BMWs and new sports cars are way too over styled and busy.

But whatever people expect too much its just a car lol

[minn19]

Originally Posted by shimmy23

I dunno about you guys but I want a Patagonia now

A jacket?

[adc]

Originally Posted by RSXiMUS

Damn with that wheel selection it does make the M3 look like a regular 3 series. Yikes.

I also find my E92 M3 more sterile than my F80. The E92 feels quieter, cushier and more insulated from the outside world. The F80 feels raw, harsher with "right now" controls and response, it almost makes my E92 feel lazy.

"soul" and "feel" is such a subjective matter, I find my F80 absolutely the most thrilling ride compared to my E92 M3 and E39 M5.

After owning an E90 M3 for six years, and being in my second F80 now, I mostly feel the same way. I find the F80 more raw and energetic, with right now responses. IMO a stickshift is mandatory to experience the car at its best, given how torquey the engine is.

Although I'll say I didn't like the stock ZCP engine tune that much, and feel the CS tune is absolutely perfect for this car, should have been in the car from day 1. It adds the necessary zing/drama/frenetic character that the ZCP is possibly missing.

I simply don't see what else has 4 doors, can be driven daily year long from work to Home Depot, to sport practice etc and enjoyed absolutely brutally on the racetrack, without the slightest hiccup or mechanical drama.

It is at its best when driven aggressively over 7/10ths so if you don't do that, perhaps you find it a bit sterile? I don't know, I simply love it...

[Pic18]

Originally Posted by joshuastein55

I think he was more referring to the drama of just trying to drive it easily, as he mentioned it was too tail happy under normal conditions, being difficult to smoothly drive it in comparison to the NA engines of the past which offer more control due to the torque coming in later.

In the end I think he really just wants a more connected experience. Got to also remember, he was a previous E92 M3 owner, so in a sense, he sees the F8X as a car that while a jack of all trades, doesn't seem to master the ones that previous versions did, such as smoothness of the NA engine, connection to the vehicle and road, and steering, overall presenting a downgrade and more numb driving experience.

Well my point was the point that not necessarily being easy to drive is what makes the F80 exciting and fun. I have not owned an E92 M3, but I have had an E46 M3 as well as regular E46’s and E90’s. I find nothing about the F80 sterile or disconnected in general or in comparison to those vehicles. The F80 is a beast and by far the favorite vehicle I have ever owned. I don’t necessarily find it difficult to drive, but I also do not want “easy”, which is why I find the F80 fun and full of character.

Every is entitled to there opinion, but if you look on YouTube it is a never ending line of non-professional journalists who like to say word for word what every other YouTube’er is saying (not connected, no soul, sterile). In a few years that opinion will flip to how much better it is than the newer version.

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

sorry should have used a better word

Definition of blasé
1: apathetic to pleasure or excitement as a result of excessive indulgence or enjoyment

[akkando]

Originally Posted by allinon72

Keep in mind that Mark is generally EXTREMELY critical of modern BMWs.

He's critically of pretty much everything but Lexus, an s2000, and purpose built race cars.

Everything is either not driver focused, or it's too much power period, too much power for the street, too expensive to buy, or too expensive to maintain out of warranty.

He's got too much experience at the track, so everything is boring or stupid on the street, and why would you pay for something stupid on the street? And why would you pay a premium at the track when you could have built a race car that's even better?


I'm glad I don't have enough track/race experience to find driving on the street boring.

[8_is_enough]

Originally Posted by Salespunk

The original M3 was built only so they could go racing, thats it. Driver comfort and daily use were not even a consideration and the sales of the E30 M3 reflected that. It was actually much more similar to the M4 GTS because even though only a limited number of cars were built, many were still sitting on dealer lots 2 years later.

Being old enough to remember when E30 M3s sat on lots, I recall buyers thinking it was absurd to pay a premium for a four cylinder. The general consensus was that fours should be cheaper than sixes.

Originally Posted by RSXiMUS

I also find my E92 M3 more sterile than my F80. The E92 feels quieter, cushier and more insulated from the outside world. The F80 feels raw, harsher with "right now" controls and response, it almost makes my E92 feel lazy.

+1. I had two E9X M3s and they felt like GTs compared to the F80 (although I miss the induction wail under WOT).

[jmg]

Originally Posted by moonshine89

I wonder if it'll be harder to become part of the m club in the future. I feel most here have driven or owned an m car in the past and can really point out the improvements or driven many other sport cars.

I'm currently trying to sell my m3 since it's difficult to take it to an island. But as I get offers for it and drive it everyday, I can't stop doubting my decision to sell it. I keep fantasizing about keeping and making it work on the island.

My point is...I saw this review within the hour of it being posted on YouTube. I too felt let down since I love the channel and I thought he was gonna finish with how amazing the f8x generation is. In the end I felt the conclusion was the F8x generation is for newbie m posers. People that can afford a luxury sports car but aren't hardcore enthusiasts that can "feel" the soul of a car. Maybe I haven't driven enough older generations or sports cars in general....but damn! My m3 makes me climax every time I get on a highway merge. Rippin through the gears with my DCT makes me feel like a frickin F1 driver. On paper it's the most refined and powerful m3 to date. I'm sure it'll change, but what's the grading rubric these days for an m3? Seems to be getting tougher every generation...

That's not the impression I got. My interpretation is that new cars have evolved and so has the M3.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by jmg

That's not the impression I got. My interpretation is that new cars have evolved and so has the M3.

Agreed.


Many of us aren't new to M3's, so I often wonder who the posers and neophytes are that some reviewers (...and certain members of this forum) refer to. With reference to life, you can't really resonate with an era in which you weren't alive or were too young to appreciate. Somebody who is in their early twenties can't really shoot the shit with me about the days before cell phones. You can't fault a newer owner because he/she wasn't alive when the E30 M3 was homologated, thus, negating a value attachment. For me personally it was the E36 M3 that sparked my interest in BMW's (...the way it drove sold me!!), but being a teenager when that car was available made it unattainable. Enter stage left the 2001 E46 M3. I was making enough money to finally move into an ///M. That car was more or less my starting point in terms of ///M reference. Eight ///M cars and a bunch of BMW's later, the F82 is my favorite of them all. I wouldn't take any of the older M3's over it. Does that make me part of the fringe rather than the core?!? I don't know that I can be considered fringe when I've been driving M cars for about two decades; about as long as it was realistically and financially feasible to do so, and what amounts to half of my life.

[AO08BAS]

Originally Posted by minn19

A jacket?

Minn19 and any other CS owners lurking here who might have owned the E9X and a "normal" F8X does anyone else feel a lot more steering feel with the CS super thick steering wheel?

I wouldn't call it amazingly engaging where I feel every single bump and little rock in the road but I have noticed a lot more feedback. I am not sure if this is purely down to the steering wheel itself or the fact the M4CS is particular is a lot more stripped down anyway and coupled with the noise etc your mind just gets the placebo effect of better steering feel?

If it is simply due to the numbness of the standard leather steering wheel then there's hope yet for all the F8X owners who want to "feel the road" as you can just change out the wheel itself.

Also saying the above with my E92s my first car was a 2008 manual and I am 100% certain that car had a MUCH thicker steering wheel than my 2013 DCT. But I have never been able to find any solid data on there being 2 types of stock steering wheels offered for the E92.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Racer20

I still wonder if all the complaints about the rear end are just due to the DCT. Having a manual transmission forces you to modulate yourself after every shift. You shift, THEN feed in the throttle as power builds. You get instant feedback of how power and grip are building in relation to your throttle and clutch work. Whereas in a DCT, you feed in throttle, THEN the car does . . . something? On gear change and throttle uptake, there's a disconnection between your foot and the power to the rear wheels as the car is making decisions and engaging clutches for you. Even if you are pulling the paddles, you aren't forced to modulate the throttle with every shift as you are in a 6MT.

I would argue that you still have the full control over DCT shifts just like on a 6MT. Sure, if you drive it like an idiot, it can get the rear squirly, just like 6MT can: do an all out pedal to metal power shift on a 6MT and the rear will get lose. On a DCT, one can also breath off the throttle on upshift to smooth the shift when needed.

I feel that most that complain about the F8X are the ones who have not taken the time to learn how to drive it properly. Hence the dichotomy in this review: they complain about too much drama in the same sentence they complain about lack of drama ; saying it does everything too easily to be exiting while complaining that the rear steps out if you don't manage the throttle (with skinny winter tires on ).

I've done well over 100 track days with the F8X and I certainly don't feel it is a handful on track. The chassis is super responsive and predictable and the S55's pull is very strong while being easy to modulate, which makes it a real joy to drive on track. But you do need to DRIVE it.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ZeCP

Minn19 and any other CS owners lurking here who might have owned the E9X and a "normal" F8X does anyone else feel a lot more steering feel with the CS super thick steering wheel?

I wouldn't call it amazingly engaging where I feel every single bump and little rock in the road but I have noticed a lot more feedback. I am not sure if this is purely down to the steering wheel itself or the fact the M4CS is particular is a lot more stripped down anyway and coupled with the noise etc your mind just gets the placebo effect of better steering feel?

If it is simply due to the numbness of the standard leather steering wheel then there's hope yet for all the F8X owners who want to "feel the road" as you can just change out the wheel itself.

Also saying the above with my E92s my first car was a 2008 manual and I am 100% certain that car had a MUCH thicker steering wheel than my 2013 DCT. But I have never been able to find any solid data on there being 2 types of stock steering wheels offered for the E92.

I agree, I also find the steering feel on my M4cs to be much improved over my previous M4. It is much more alive a tactile. I dont think that the thick steering wheel has much to do with it though, the revised suspension tuning and EPS programming have a big infuence here. The Cup2 tires improve it even further since the CS is tuned around them.

I did not find the steering feel of my previous E92 M3 to be that great in stock form either. It improved when I installed GC plates and dialed in more camber and caster, but it still was not stellar.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by ZeCP

Minn19 and any other CS owners lurking here who might have owned the E9X and a "normal" F8X does anyone else feel a lot more steering feel with the CS super thick steering wheel?

I wouldn't call it amazingly engaging where I feel every single bump and little rock in the road but I have noticed a lot more feedback. I am not sure if this is purely down to the steering wheel itself or the fact the M4CS is particular is a lot more stripped down anyway and coupled with the noise etc your mind just gets the placebo effect of better steering feel?

If it is simply due to the numbness of the standard leather steering wheel then there's hope yet for all the F8X owners who want to "feel the road" as you can just change out the wheel itself.

Also saying the above with my E92s my first car was a 2008 manual and I am 100% certain that car had a MUCH thicker steering wheel than my 2013 DCT. But I have never been able to find any solid data on there being 2 types of stock steering wheels offered for the E92.

I don't own my CS anymore, but yes it did feel noticeably better than my F80 ZCP M3.

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by ZeCP

Minn19 and any other CS owners lurking here who might have owned the E9X and a "normal" F8X does anyone else feel a lot more steering feel with the CS super thick steering wheel?

I wouldn't call it amazingly engaging where I feel every single bump and little rock in the road but I have noticed a lot more feedback. I am not sure if this is purely down to the steering wheel itself or the fact the M4CS is particular is a lot more stripped down anyway and coupled with the noise etc your mind just gets the placebo effect of better steering feel?

If it is simply due to the numbness of the standard leather steering wheel then there's hope yet for all the F8X owners who want to "feel the road" as you can just change out the wheel itself.

Also saying the above with my E92s my first car was a 2008 manual and I am 100% certain that car had a MUCH thicker steering wheel than my 2013 DCT. But I have never been able to find any solid data on there being 2 types of stock steering wheels offered for the E92.

It has very little to do with the steering wheel and more to do with how the suspension and steering work together to load up the tires and what the adaptive dampers and EPS are doing to filter out vibrations. In order for the steering to feel good, the tires have to load laterally and vertically, the car has to roll about its front and rear roll centers, and the car has to change direction all in harmony with your steering input.

If all these things are balanced, the car does exactly what your brain expects and you get the sense that you can "feel" the steering. If one of those behaviors is not balanced with the others, your brain gets conflicting signals and it's not as easy to tell what the car is doing or going to do.

The challenge for engineers is that humans are inherently but subconsiously very sensitive to small changes in these behaviors and don't even realize it . . . just like you don't realize all the brain and muscle coordination it takes just for you to walk down the street.

Getting one thing just a little bit "off," or having the production parts (tires, shocks, bushings, etc.) vary a bit from the ones you used to calibrate the car can result in the steering feel being significantly worse than intended. During development, EVERY part on the car is a prototype and hasn't stabilized into it's production-level performance (tire compound, bushing stiffness, damper behavior, etc.) so it's very difficult, and even impossible in some cases to get the nuance of ride and steering feel right for the initial launch of a car. Even if it's perfect when the engineers are finished tuning, The production car will likely be different in some way when they start rolling off the line.

It's VERY common for cars to be recalibrated for ride and steering (and other things) 3, 6, 12 months after launch, and that's why something like a CS can be significantly better than the base car with seemingly "the same" parts.

Changing the steering wheel will not improve the issue, but swapping the full CS suspension made a significant improvement in my car.