M4 clutch rod failure leads to accident

[minn19]

Originally Posted by EOS

Ok, I will state this again. I did completely dump the clutch, and after that point is when it became impossible to depress the pedal again. The car nearly died, but rather than doing so, came to life and accelerated rapidly backward. I have dumped the clutch before while parked and the result was that it died (no surprise--in the numerous manuals i have owned, the result has been the same [and should be]).

The precise thing I am attempting to figure out is how this all was possible (the car revving to life and accelerating after the dumped clutch shit the bed, apparently due to a rod or pin that "fell out," according to the shop foreman). I never exerted any upward force on the clutch pedal and i never touched the gas pedal throughout the whole affair.

If y'all got nothin on this point, we're all in the same boat. Thanks for the comments anyway, and I will be speaking with the GM this afternoon to get an update on where things stand with the investigation. At this point, he seems genuinely concerned and has repeatedly stated that he will work with me and advocate on my behalf to get a successful resolution here.

Look, just because you say xyz or you "thought" whatever happened doesn't necessarily mean it went down that way and many of us have tried to explain this to you. We to are trying to figure out what happened and one of the very real possibilities is you made a mistake and don't remember that you did because you are "certain" you didn't.

The more you describe about the how the clutch acted during all of this leads me to think it is a blown slave cylinder. But, I'm not sure how this would affect the clutch in these cars or if a part would pop out when that happens. I believe it would, but I don't have enough knowledge about the mechanical aspects of the M3/4 MT. Like I said, I know in my past cars when this happened brake fluid was everywhere, but the car certainly wasn't going anywhere under its own power.

[EOS]

Originally Posted by minn19

Look, just because you say xyz or you "thought" whatever happened doesn't necessarily mean it went down that way and many of us have tried to explain this to you. We to are trying to figure out what happened and one of the very real possibilities is you made a mistake and don't remember that you did because you are "certain" you didn't.

The more you describe about the how the clutch acted during all of this leads me to think it is a blown slave cylinder. But, I'm not sure how this would affect the clutch in these cars or if a part would pop out when that happens. I believe it would, but I don't have enough knowledge about the mechanical aspects of the M3/4 MT. Like I said, I know in my past cars when this happened brake fluid was everywhere, but the car certainly wasn't going anywhere under its own power.

I fully appreciate that it is challenging for you all to believe my factual account. I appreciate the blown slave cylinder tip, thank you. I will follow up with the GM to see, factually, what BMW has uncovered. I realize this is a very strange case--from someone who has driven manuals for years, I have never seen or heard anything like it.

[einscot]

we've all missed the obvious here - psi in the tires was low by a smidge.

[Ian1973]

Originally Posted by aerostar

Sounds more like OP thought he was holding the brakes but was hitting the gas.

Even if the car was accelerating in reverse the brakes would stop it. There's way more torque in the brakes than in the motor, especially at low RPMs in 1st gear.

Another question is why you are parking it with reverse engaged. And why are you starting the car with it still in reverse without moving it to neutral first?

My car is always in gear parked. I always start the car in gear with my other foot on the brake. If it's dead cold, I will then let the clutch out after putting it in neutral, right foot still on brake and let it settle into an idle.

[Ian1973]

Originally Posted by Railgun

No, I'm saying that starting the car in gear is a recipe for disaster. Common sense. Put the car in gear when you're actually intending and ready to move. Just because you've never heard of it doesn't mean I've not heard of it or makes any less sense.

True story. Many years ago, a client of my dads made a claim when he wrecked his Ferrari in his own garage. How? Showing off by remote starting it (yes, he retrofit this) but forgot it was left in gear.

Go talk to all the Toyota folks about unintended acceleration.

?? The car won't start with the clutch engaged and in gear. Car starters on a manual? Um, no shop would ever do that.

I have been driving manuals for 30+ years, have started them all the same since I was actually 14(long story). If you have the clutch open I'm not even understanding why people are attempting to say there is something wrong with that.

[einscot]

scratch my earlier post...

https://jalopnik.com/van-rudely-shov...can-1829532994

[Ian1973]

Originally Posted by EOS

Exactly. This is precisely what has happened before (one time when I was late to a meeting and forgot i hadn't pushed the start/stop when I parked it in gear with the e brake on). It didn't even touch the cement block at the end of the parking space (died before it hit it). This time, dropped the clutch (forgot it was in gear) and instead of dying, it roared to life and shot backward 15 feet with the e brake on and up a slight incline (the guy who saw it all happen examined the garage with me and we determined it was a slight incline--also, I usually coast into my space in neutral, meaning it has to be a slight incline). I could not engage the clutch because of whatever issue with the rod/pin.

The case with BMW is well underway, and the investigation is pending.

I am truly not sure if there is a nanny for preventing stalls. Maybe someone else can clarify this.

No there is no anti stall on any manual in the automotive world or motorcycle world. If you let the clutch out slowly you can get it to get moving without stalling, but just letting out the clutch abruptly will cause a stall, every time, doesn't matter the gear or the torque available of that engine.

[dzvero]

Originally Posted by EOS

Ok, I will state this again. I did completely dump the clutch, and after that point is when it became impossible to depress the pedal again. The car nearly died, but rather than doing so, came to life and accelerated rapidly backward. I have dumped the clutch before while parked and the result was that it died (no surprise--in the numerous manuals i have owned, the result has been the same [and should be]).

The precise thing I am attempting to figure out is how this all was possible (the car revving to life and accelerating after the dumped clutch shit the bed, apparently due to a rod or pin that "fell out," according to the shop foreman). I never exerted any upward force on the clutch pedal and i never touched the gas pedal throughout the whole affair.

If y'all got nothin on this point, we're all in the same boat. Thanks for the comments anyway, and I will be speaking with the GM this afternoon to get an update on where things stand with the investigation. At this point, he seems genuinely concerned and has repeatedly stated that he will work with me and advocate on my behalf to get a successful resolution here.

Originally Posted by GlazierGlaze

Man, this thread is retarded. Learn how to drive OP.

You need to switch to automatic

[mardibob]

automatics don't solve all problems. I had a valet almost drive my car into a wall because he couldn't figure out how to put it in park. luckily the door was open so I was able to reach over him and pull the e-brake.... it did make it easier for me to apologize for not having any cash to tip him.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Ian1973

No there is no anti stall on any manual in the automotive world or motorcycle world. If you let the clutch out slowly you can get it to get moving without stalling, but just letting out the clutch abruptly will cause a stall, every time, doesn't matter the gear or the torque available of that engine.

I don't think this is true. I have seen a number of reports that the F8x do have some kind of limited anti-stall mechanism, I have seen M2 owners report it also. My Mazda 3 has something like it and the revs can rise a small amount without any throttle input. Maybe it's not even anti-stall just some kind of idle control.

I'm not saying I believe this could move the car though...

[EOS]

Originally Posted by Ian1973

?? The car won't start with the clutch engaged and in gear. Car starters on a manual? Um, no shop would ever do that.

I have been driving manuals for 30+ years, have started them all the same since I was actually 14(long story). If you have the clutch open I'm not even understanding why people are attempting to say there is something wrong with that.

Thanks for this. You understand.

[EOS]

Originally Posted by Ian1973

No there is no anti stall on any manual in the automotive world or motorcycle world. If you let the clutch out slowly you can get it to get moving without stalling, but just letting out the clutch abruptly will cause a stall, every time, doesn't matter the gear or the torque available of that engine.

That's what I thought until this occurred.

[EOS]

Originally Posted by einscot

scratch my earlier post...

https://jalopnik.com/van-rudely-shov...can-1829532994

A good lol (literally did when I saw the video) is much needed. H/t, good sir.

[Dan_Halen]

Originally Posted by EOS

I assure you it was the brake pedal, and the gas was never touched throughout this whole affair. Also I started it in reverse with the clutch fully depressed--something that has never caused an issue on the 3+ standards I've had throughout the years.

Sounds to me, like others have in the past with really similar outcomes: you THOUGT you had your foot hard on the brake, but it was on the gas pedal.

The insurance investigator, I would bet, will not find this amazing confluence of bizarre malfunctions happening all at once, instead come to the conclusion the driver was the malfunctioning aspect. I'm not saying something on your car didn't break or malfunction, but like everyone else, I find it impossible for every aspect of the drivetrain to malfunction and STILL run and drive.

[f80er]

If OP did start the car in gear (reverse) and the slave shit the bed at the same time would the car stay in gear? A slave with no pressure or air in it would cause the clutch pedal to have 0 resistance.

Fuck if I know but my vote is just panic mode when the car lurched back and mashed the gas thinking it was the brake.

[aerostar]

Originally Posted by f80er

If OP did start the car in gear (reverse) and the slave shit the bed at the same time would the car stay in gear? A slave with no pressure or air in it would cause the clutch pedal to have 0 resistance.

Fuck if I know but my vote is just panic mode when the car lurched back and mashed the gas thinking it was the brake.

100% agree. And the damage from the accident as well as the clutch drop would have caused the damage he reported afterwards.

[EOS]

Originally Posted by aerostar

100% agree. And the damage from the accident as well as the clutch drop would have caused the damage he reported afterwards.

I assure you all I did not touch the throttle. Please, for the sake of assisting me here, work with the fact that I did not touch the throttle.

Then tell me how this might have happened.

Thanks for playing.

[elinstylez]

I didn't read the entire thread but is this your first manual? I've never heard of anything like what you've described happening, ever. I'll be extremely surprised if BMW pays for any damages, if they do it's purely out of good will.

You should start calling different ase certified mechanics who believe you and can explain and testify well in court to prove how such a manufacture defect as you describe could occur on BMW's antiquated, time-tested technology. Unless you have videos of the incident it doesn't seem believable at all. It's going to be an uphill battle for you.

[EOS]

Originally Posted by elinstylez

I didn't read the entire thread but is this your first manual? I've never heard of anything like what you've described happening, ever. I'll be extremely surprised if BMW pays for any damages, if they do it's purely out of good will.

You should start calling different ase certified mechanics who believe you and can explain and testify well in court to prove how such a manufacture defect as you describe could occur on BMW's antiquated, time-tested technology. Unless you have videos of the incident it doesn't seem believable at all. It's going to be an uphill battle for you.

No, I have owned several manuals before.

I wish I were making this up. I am not. I would appreciate anyone who might be able to tell me what happened, given the parameters I have supplied (the factual account).

[elinstylez]

Originally Posted by EOS

No, I have owned several manuals before.

I wish I were making this up. I am not. I would appreciate anyone who might be able to tell me what happened, given the parameters I have supplied (the factual account).

If it's not due to negligence on your part, Im sorry for your situation. Like I said, start calling as many mechanics as you can who can support your position and be ready to pay for their time to explain it to BMW mechanics/corporate and court if you end up there.

Good luck!

[08mojo]

Originally Posted by EOS

No, I have owned several manuals before.

I wish I were making this up. I am not. I would appreciate anyone who might be able to tell me what happened, given the parameters I have supplied (the factual account).

If fluid was indeed leaking from the car, I'd put money that it was clutch fluid (which is brake fluid, but it should be isolated from the brake circuits). That would mean your master or slave cylinder failed, and that's why you didn't have a clutch pedal--your clutch will always be engaged if the fluid leaks out.

That said, here is what I think happened: the clutch failed, you panicked and did not react fast enough. Whether or not you hit the gas, we'll never know. If you hit the brakes, you were too late--again, I think you panicked and didn't know how to react when the clutch pedal was dead.

Modern cars will go to a high idle to keep the car from stalling but it is very subtle, so perhaps that's what happened here. If engine speed increases unexpectedly, even a little bit, it's going to catch you off-guard. A minor increase in engine speed will feel like a HUGE increase when it's unexpected, especially when you are about to hit a parked car.

So how about trying to help instead of being so defensive? Post a pic of the damage. If the car accelerated hard, the damage will be more than if the car just kept moving at a high idle (or idle).

[aerostar]

Originally Posted by 08mojo

If fluid was indeed leaking from the car, I'd put money that it was clutch fluid (which is brake fluid, but it should be isolated from the brake circuits). That would mean your master or slave cylinder failed, and that's why you didn't have a clutch pedal--your clutch will always be engaged if the fluid leaks out.

That said, here is what I think happened: the clutch failed, you panicked and did not react fast enough. Whether or not you hit the gas, we'll never know. If you hit the brakes, you were too late--again, I think you panicked and didn't know how to react when the clutch pedal was dead.

Modern cars will go to a high idle to keep the car from stalling but it is very subtle, so perhaps that's what happened here. If engine speed increases unexpectedly, even a little bit, it's going to catch you off-guard. A minor increase in engine speed will feel like a HUGE increase when it's unexpected, especially when you are about to hit a parked car.

So how about trying to help instead of being so defensive? Post a pic of the damage. If the car accelerated hard, the damage will be more than if the car just kept moving at a high idle (or idle).

Considering he said he got injured I doubt it was idle RPMs.


OP- any updates?