Selling the M4 to get a ZL1 1LE, any thoughts?

[dogbone]

Hi.

I don't normally hang out over here in the M4 section, but someone pointed me to this thread because they thought I might have an opinion.

I have an E90 dedicated track car that runs at all the CA tracks. I've run 150+ track days with the car. She's a good car---won the 2018 Bimmer Challenge B1 Class----does 1:47 at Buttonwillow, 1:25 at Big Willow, 1:34 at Laguna Seca, etc. (I have a long-running build thread over here: https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1158445 ).

Anyway, I'll start by saying, if you're bored with the M4 and want to move to a Camaro, I'm sure the Camaro would be fun.

However, when you say the M4 "just didn't get the job done", then given the mods on the car, I believe the car is not being driven to its potential. Someone here mentioned a 1:59 at Buttonwillow. If that's true, then your car is 10-12 seconds off its potential pace. A stripped, tuned, full aero M4 with suspension and brakes and Pirelli DH is surely capable of a 1:4x pace at Buttonwillow. There is no doubt about that. I've seen with my own eyes an M4 built up by Racewerkz easily do 1:47's at Buttonwillow.

An E36 M3 was just out at Buttonwillow recently----it's lightened, basically stock power and BF Goodrich R1S and a minimal flimsy small rear wing that flexes badly at speed (and ripped off at ACS)-----and it did a 1:54 with a moderately experienced driver. If an E36 (not on slicks) can do a 1:54, your car should be in the 1:4x's. That same car with no aero and an experienced driver did a 1:49.5 at ACS (!!).

Regarding the ACS video----the car can do more than a 1:47. Heck, you look like you were sitting in traffic most of the session (and you had a passenger weighing down your car). At ACS, your car could probably do in the 1:43's.

If you really do desire faster lap times (on any car platform), I STRONGLY suggest you get a device like an AIM Solo 2 DL tied into the CAN bus. It will collect tons of data on your driving that you can study. Using data to analyze your driving is a sure-fire, time-tested, 100% proven way to improve driving and ultimately achieve lower lap times. Of course, there is a learning curve with data, but again, the results are undeniable. It's virtually impossible for an amateur driver to analyze their own performance in realtime while driving. It's only later, with the data, that you can start to understand your driving characteristics and where you can improve. If you REALLY want to maximize performance as quickly as possible, get a good instructor along with the data collection. Have the instructor drive your car. Then you can compare your data to the more experienced driver in the same car. The spots that need work become clear very quickly when you can compare to a faster driver in your car.

Anyway, none of this is to give you a hard time. All I'm trying to say is that a track prepped M4 with full aero and slicks is a SOLID track beast. If the car isn't putting in the times you want, and the parts on the car are properly dialed in, then I would suggest that the driver needs more seat time/experience. And the best part about that is-----I'm telling you to go to the track more! Yay!

[Funf6cyl]

Why not get yourself in a 911 or a GTx Porsche? That would be the ticket to what you want in a faster car with more capability. When it comes to real racing they are King vs the few who think they are racing at HPDEs when no one is truly racing.

I personally don’t spend more than a few days at the track each year anymore, but until you’ve mastered the car stock, don’t modify it.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Hi.

I don't normally hang out over here in the M4 section, but someone pointed me to this thread because they thought I might have an opinion.

I have an E90 dedicated track car that runs at all the CA tracks. I've run 150+ track days with the car. She's a good car---won the 2018 Bimmer Challenge B1 Class----does 1:47 at Buttonwillow, 1:25 at Big Willow, 1:34 at Laguna Seca, etc. (I have a long-running build thread over here: https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1158445 ).

Anyway, I'll start by saying, if you're bored with the M4 and want to move to a Camaro, I'm sure the Camaro would be fun.

However, when you say the M4 "just didn't get the job done", then given the mods on the car, I believe the car is not being driven to its potential. Someone here mentioned a 1:59 at Buttonwillow. If that's true, then your car is 10-12 seconds off its potential pace. A stripped, tuned, full aero M4 with suspension and brakes and Pirelli DH is surely capable of a 1:4x pace at Buttonwillow. There is no doubt about that. I've seen with my own eyes an M4 built up by Racewerkz easily do 1:47's at Buttonwillow.

An E36 M3 was just out at Buttonwillow recently----it's lightened, basically stock power and BF Goodrich R1S and a minimal flimsy small rear wing that flexes badly at speed (and ripped off at ACS)-----and it did a 1:54 with a moderately experienced driver. If an E36 (not on slicks) can do a 1:54, your car should be in the 1:4x's. That same car with no aero and an experienced driver did a 1:49.5 at ACS (!!).

Regarding the ACS video----the car can do more than a 1:47. Heck, you look like you were sitting in traffic most of the session (and you had a passenger weighing down your car). At ACS, your car could probably do in the 1:43's.

If you really do desire faster lap times (on any car platform), I STRONGLY suggest you get a device like an AIM Solo 2 DL tied into the CAN bus. It will collect tons of data on your driving that you can study. Using data to analyze your driving is a sure-fire, time-tested, 100% proven way to improve driving and ultimately achieve lower lap times. Of course, there is a learning curve with data, but again, the results are undeniable. It's virtually impossible for an amateur driver to analyze their own performance in realtime while driving. It's only later, with the data, that you can start to understand your driving characteristics and where you can improve. If you REALLY want to maximize performance as quickly as possible, get a good instructor along with the data collection. Have the instructor drive your car. Then you can compare your data to the more experienced driver in the same car. The spots that need work become clear very quickly when you can compare to a faster driver in your car.

Anyway, none of this is to give you a hard time. All I'm trying to say is that a track prepped M4 with full aero and slicks is a SOLID track beast. If the car isn't putting in the times you want, and the parts on the car are properly dialed in, then I would suggest that the driver needs more seat time/experience. And the best part about that is-----I'm telling you to go to the track more! Yay!

Congrats on the win and your post is great advice. Mods should sticky.

My $0.02 is a getting a spec car from a good builder with a known good suspension setup would be a good way to implement your advice. Can just drive the car, review data from the class leaders and worry about nothing but driving and maintenance of the car

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Congrats on the win and your post is great advice. Mods should sticky.

My $0.02 is a getting a spec car from a good builder with a known good suspension setup would be a good way to implement your advice. Can just drive the car, review data from the class leaders and worry about nothing but driving and maintenance of the car

Thanks!

Regarding spec race cars---I agree with you that being in a spec environment can give you lots of data from (supposedly) identical setups. (I've heard crazy stories of the cheating in spec series....holy crap......like hollowing out a spec damper and putting in the guts of the suspension you really want to run....haha!). But most reasonably priced spec race cars are not going to have a ton of power. If the OP wants to keep up with GTRs and GT3s, most affordable spec cars will struggle.

If the OP simply wants to beat up on GTRs and GT3s at an HPDE, I would argue that his current car can do that. In his photos, he's showing some very awesome Pirelli DH. He's tuned the turbos and runs E85. He's got an APR GTC-300 wing.......this car should be FUUULYYYIIING out there. The grip of this car should be incredible. If it's not, then something is wrong. (Maintaining a minimum speed of 130mph on the ACS looked pretty effortless in his video.) Just from a tire standpoint, very few people show up to HPDEs with Pirelli DH that look that fresh. They don't even look like scrubs to me. Just the tires alone should give the car a several second jump on any other car that shows up on 200 treadwear tires. But remember, a sticky tire really helps you gain time by allowing you to brake later and harder, and corner faster. Fast tires don't save you tons of time simply by letting you accelerate harder. Yes, that is a part of it. But the bigger advantage is in the later braking zones and faster cornering speeds and exiting corners at a higher speed. Amateur drivers (like me) become programmed over time to learn a certain feel. We don't adapt quickly. If we can't quickly adapt our driving style to take advantage of a faster tire, then the faster tire won't do much for us. And with a tire like a DH, we don't have a long time to learn the tire before the magical grip starts to fall off. So, its tricky----you want to take advantage of the tire and find it's limits, but you also don't want to get yourself in over your head. (The true mark of a pro driver is their ability to find and use the maximum grip of any tire in any car at any track very quickly. I know a pro driver that tests race tires for Pirelli. We've seen why he is a tester. He can get into a car he's never driven at a track he's never driven, and take the car right to the edge the first time he's in the car. Awesome.)

Before he dumps the M4, I would encourage the OP to have an experienced driver put some laps down in his car at a technical track like Buttonwillow. Get a sense of what the car can really do. And capture the data. And then drive the car himself while collecting data and start comparing. The car's potential is not being realized yet. And moving to a Camaro is not going to magically fix his desire to do significantly faster lap times.

[nicknaz]

^ yep I agree with all that.

I was just sharing with OP that even maxing out a low power spec car takes a bit of time and effort

I was speaking with forum member colatkitty some time ago (asking him how he got the skills to match Randy P’s big willow time in a borrowed, stock m4) and he said it was from his stockish s2k.

Seeing pros at work is amazing and humbling. I saw a pic at the shop where I maintain my street car of a pro jumping a cup car into carousel at Sonoma. On their third lap ever in the car.

[WESTCOASTTRADING]

agreed with dogbone, I would go extreme on M4 first before moving onto ZL1.

[jpy1980]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Hi.

I don't normally hang out over here in the M4 section, but someone pointed me to this thread because they thought I might have an opinion.

I have an E90 dedicated track car that runs at all the CA tracks. I've run 150+ track days with the car. She's a good car---won the 2018 Bimmer Challenge B1 Class----does 1:47 at Buttonwillow, 1:25 at Big Willow, 1:34 at Laguna Seca, etc. (I have a long-running build thread over here: https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1158445 ).

Anyway, I'll start by saying, if you're bored with the M4 and want to move to a Camaro, I'm sure the Camaro would be fun.

However, when you say the M4 "just didn't get the job done", then given the mods on the car, I believe the car is not being driven to its potential. Someone here mentioned a 1:59 at Buttonwillow. If that's true, then your car is 10-12 seconds off its potential pace. A stripped, tuned, full aero M4 with suspension and brakes and Pirelli DH is surely capable of a 1:4x pace at Buttonwillow. There is no doubt about that. I've seen with my own eyes an M4 built up by Racewerkz easily do 1:47's at Buttonwillow.

An E36 M3 was just out at Buttonwillow recently----it's lightened, basically stock power and BF Goodrich R1S and a minimal flimsy small rear wing that flexes badly at speed (and ripped off at ACS)-----and it did a 1:54 with a moderately experienced driver. If an E36 (not on slicks) can do a 1:54, your car should be in the 1:4x's. That same car with no aero and an experienced driver did a 1:49.5 at ACS (!!).

Regarding the ACS video----the car can do more than a 1:47. Heck, you look like you were sitting in traffic most of the session (and you had a passenger weighing down your car). At ACS, your car could probably do in the 1:43's.

If you really do desire faster lap times (on any car platform), I STRONGLY suggest you get a device like an AIM Solo 2 DL tied into the CAN bus. It will collect tons of data on your driving that you can study. Using data to analyze your driving is a sure-fire, time-tested, 100% proven way to improve driving and ultimately achieve lower lap times. Of course, there is a learning curve with data, but again, the results are undeniable. It's virtually impossible for an amateur driver to analyze their own performance in realtime while driving. It's only later, with the data, that you can start to understand your driving characteristics and where you can improve. If you REALLY want to maximize performance as quickly as possible, get a good instructor along with the data collection. Have the instructor drive your car. Then you can compare your data to the more experienced driver in the same car. The spots that need work become clear very quickly when you can compare to a faster driver in your car.

Anyway, none of this is to give you a hard time. All I'm trying to say is that a track prepped M4 with full aero and slicks is a SOLID track beast. If the car isn't putting in the times you want, and the parts on the car are properly dialed in, then I would suggest that the driver needs more seat time/experience. And the best part about that is-----I'm telling you to go to the track more! Yay!

So much this!!

I have a friend with a ZL1 1LE who can't drive for shit but posts sub 2s at BW 13CW. The car is driving for him.

The m4 can do more and it will also growth with you as a driver. Isn't it more rewarding when YOU earned the fast time rather than the car? =)

Plus your car looks too sick to let go! dont do it!

[bracer]

Fun thread.

I guess the question is what about it is not getting it done. As Dogbone said, the car can be wicked fast depending on setup. With no aero, stock motor, Ohlins and Pirellis I did a 1:56 at Buttonwillow and that was my first day back at the track in 6 years. I suspect with the configuration now, it will be significantly faster. This is a full interior, full weight, daily driven car. My goal is to see how fast I can go in a car that you can can put your boss and two collegues in and goto lunch. I don't think the Camaro will have much on it. A Z07 Vette with a ton of mods for sure will, but another GT car, not so sure.

A lot of speed can be given up or had with how the car feels and is setup. A bad setup can cost 4-5 seconds a lap if it's not confidence inspiring. I'm always in awe of how much grip and speed this car has considering what it really is.

[Caliboy951]

Originally Posted by blackey

Fun thread.

I guess the question is what about it is not getting it done. As Dogbone said, the car can be wicked fast depending on setup. With no aero, stock motor, Ohlins and Pirellis I did a 1:56 at Buttonwillow and that was my first day back at the track in 6 years. I suspect with the configuration now, it will be significantly faster. This is a full interior, full weight, daily driven car. My goal is to see how fast I can go in a car that you can can put your boss and two collegues in and goto lunch. I don't think the Camaro will have much on it. A Z07 Vette with a ton of mods for sure will, but another GT car, not so sure.

A lot of speed can be given up or had with how the car feels and is setup. A bad setup can cost 4-5 seconds a lap if it's not confidence inspiring. I'm always in awe of how much grip and speed this car has considering what it really is.

You make a very good point. I guess my issue is that I had it set up and something happened and I felt as if I was throwing money away. For example a year ago I turned a 1:47.1 at Autoclub (and I was complaining at how slow it was) and this year I'm 5 seconds a lap slower and every time I lift the back ends wants to come around (spun in each session) yet nothing has changed.
At Buttonwillow the car feels timid and unpredictable and I struggle to find the balance.
I started racing karts in high school, raced motorcycles (501-650 class at WSMC) and currently have a couple of Rotax karts so I'm not a complete newbie to competitive driving. On YouTube I'm "R1inCali" and I have a bit of experience but I felt as though the M4 somehow got away from what it was.
Sorry if I rambled but that's where I'm at....

[bracer]

Got it. To me that sounds like it's time to step back and figure out why it's not handling as it should. I know I've had cars that i just went the wrong way on and they were just wicked to drive. That saps your confidence in what the cars going to do when you're on the edge and you have to back off. That costs serious time.

Funny I did Rotax as well when I lived next to Sears Point. I think I know you've changed shocks, along with a host of things in the past year or so correct?

If you want to change because the Camaro is just calling your name (Which I understand too well), no harm in that, but if your swapping to get something faster / that handles better I would suggest teaming up and seeing if we can figure out what's gone wrong before giving up.

[Caliboy951]

Originally Posted by blackey

Got it. To me that sounds like it's time to step back and figure out why it's not handling as it should. I know I've had cars that i just went the wrong way on and they were just wicked to drive. That saps your confidence in what the cars going to do when you're on the edge and you have to back off. That costs serious time.

Funny I did Rotax as well when I lived next to Sears Point. I think I know you've changed shocks, along with a host of things in the past year or so correct?

If you want to change because the Camaro is just calling your name (Which I understand too well), no harm in that, but if your swapping to get something faster / that handles better I would suggest teaming up and seeing if we can figure out what's gone wrong before giving up.

First of all let's team up as soon as I get the Camaro. I'd love to do a track day with you and bounce thoughts/ideas off each other if you're open to that?

[bracer]

Absolutely. Should be a fun car as well!

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by Caliboy951

At Buttonwillow the car feels timid and unpredictable and I struggle to find the balance.
I started racing karts in high school, raced motorcycles (501-650 class at WSMC) and currently have a couple of Rotax karts so I'm not a complete newbie to competitive driving. On YouTube I'm "R1inCali" and I have a bit of experience but I felt as though the M4 somehow got away from what it was.
Sorry if I rambled but that's where I'm at....

I’m disappointed that you had this experience with that car after all that mod work. I really do wish I could have been in this particular car to feel what it was like.

I hope you find better luck and enjoyment with the Camaro. Is the Camaro going to get modded?

[Caliboy951]

Originally Posted by dogbone

I’m disappointed that you had this experience with that car after all that mod work. I really do wish I could have been in this particular car to feel what it was like.

I hope you find better luck and enjoyment with the Camaro. Is the Camaro going to get modded?

After I do a few baseline runs i'll most likely mod it depending on how it feels/performs.

[M4_Ronin]

My friend bought a 1LE for the track and loves it. Says it eats up GT3's all day. There's nothing that can keep up with him but a few cars and he just started this year. He's already posted a 2:05 at VIR full course and he's trying to get to 2:00 flat.

However i will tell you that the weight of the car is on the heavier side so it eats through tires. If you drive it as hard as he does you may be going through two sets in a weekend.

I will say that the factory braking system sucks according to him so he replaced the brakes with AP Radi-cal brake kit all the way around with the thickest pads ive ever seen. Also he bought some Forgeline wheels.

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by Ruben7520

My friend bought a 1LE for the track and loves it. Says it eats up GT3's all day. There's nothing that can keep up with him but a few cars and he just started this year. He's already posted a 2:05 at VIR full course and he's trying to get to 2:00 flat.

However i will tell you that the weight of the car is on the heavier side so it eats through tires. If you drive it as hard as he does you may be going through two sets in a weekend.

I will say that the factory braking system sucks according to him so he replaced the brakes with AP Radi-cal brake kit all the way around with the thickest pads ive ever seen. Also he bought some Forgeline wheels.

A few things seem strange to me here. Only ran a 2:05 with a ZLE, going through two sets of tires, and already using an aftermarket brake setup! Did he just try the ole driver mod yet?!

Standard SS1LEs are already running :05s at VIR so that's nothing to write home about either..

[M4_Ronin]

Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron

A few things seem strange to me here. Only ran a 2:05 with a ZLE, going through two sets of tires, and already using an aftermarket brake setup! Did he just try the ole driver mod yet?!

Standard SS1LEs are already running :05s at VIR so that's nothing to write home about either..

Hey im not bragging on him. This is just coming from him. So an SS 1Le non supercharged can do 2:05 Full course at VIR? Id like to see a video link or proof of that so i can make him cry a little hahaha!

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by Ruben7520

Hey im not bragging on him. This is just coming from him. So an SS 1Le non supercharged can do 2:05 Full course at VIR? Id like to see a video link or proof of that so i can make him cry a little hahaha!

Lol yeah I didn't mean to come off as a dick with my comment (sry if you took it that way), just wanted to reiterate the other comments made in this thread, driver mod is important.

Camaro6 forum has a track section with a leaderboard similar to ours here. There's two or three guys who have when :05 or 04s in a regular 1LE on street tires and one has ran :02s on slicks! I believe all of those have video evidence on YouTube.

[rexb16]

I nearly bought a ZL1 1LE even though I despise GM and most of their products. I took it out for a test drive only to find out the left front shock was blown. Blown shock with 12 miles on the car.

These shocks are supposed to last the life of the vehicle btw.

FUCK GM.

Good luck OP.

[Blksnowflake]

Get the car if you want it. I'm not a professional driver but just looking at your video....you are not overdriving that car. Seems honestly like it's actually not being used to it's potential. I won't monday night quarter back your driving but it seemed you were driving kind of like "cautiously". If you think more horsepower will fix that, good luck.
As stated above, people get better numbers in lesser-than cars, you will be faster in the straights if that's your goal but your turning, and braking will still still suffer.

Based solely on that video, the car isn't the problem. There are videos of mildly tuned M cars pacing GT3s on the ring, may be down to weak GT3 drivers, but just goes to show, mostly, it's the man, not the machine. Within the context presented here, your car should be competitive with the right driver. People on here talking like M cars are Honda Accords with an exhaust, it's not a Porsche but it isn't a minivan either.

[stevehifi]

Originally Posted by rexb16

I nearly bought a ZL1 1LE even though I despise GM and most of their products. I took it out for a test drive only to find out the left front shock was blown. Blown shock with 12 miles on the car.

These shocks are supposed to last the life of the vehicle btw.

FUCK GM.

Good luck OP.

Agreed.. I've driven 1-2 year old vettes, Mustangs, Camaros with barely any mileage and it was like driving a 10 year old car. Tons of body flex/creaking, strange drivetrain noises, and poor materials easily prone to scratching/scuffing.
Build quality is abysmal on these cars.
No comparison to a german car.

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by rexb16

I nearly bought a ZL1 1LE even though I despise GM and most of their products. I took it out for a test drive only to find out the left front shock was blown. Blown shock with 12 miles on the car.

These shocks are supposed to last the life of the vehicle btw.

FUCK GM.

Good luck OP.

The 1LE literally has some of the best suspension bits money can buy. The spool valve shocks by Multimatic on the 1LE are world renown and used on multiple exotic cars. No shock/spring package in BMW’s history of a company has come close to the 1LE suspension.