M3/M4 vs W205 C63 AMG

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Sure but i don't feel the need to be any more specific than that. It's just a rough guess and a round number.

Interpretation? You watched the same video that I did, right? There was absolutely no mention of the C63 in there.

No, the video didn't mention it. The article did. And Jalopnik is not a crap source. "Meet the M178, a 4.0-turbo V8 that has at least 510 horsepower and will be in everything AMG touches."

At least give me that. And again, Harris already confirmed, via an interview with Tobias Moers, that the AMG GT and W205 would share the same motor (regardless of their specific designations and power outputs). I don't understand how my comments were such a giant leap into speculation.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

No, the video didn't mention it. The article did. And Jalopnik is not a crap source. "Meet the M178, a 4.0-turbo V8 that has at least 510 horsepower and will be in everything AMG touches."

At least give me that.

Hey, if you have that much faith in Jalopnik, put your money where your mouth is then take my bet. We can even leave the power spec out of it.

How about it? W205 C63 gets the M178 V8 or you owe my choice of charity one C63 payment? If it does get it, I'll do the same.

I don't understand how my comments were such a giant leap into speculation.

Because I am not responsible for what Chris Harris or Jalopnik say, but I do take responsibility for the accuracy of what's said on this forum.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Hey if you have that much faith in Jalopnik, put your money where your mouth is. Take my bet. We can even leave the power spec out of it.

How about it? W205 C63 gets the M178 V8 or you owe my choice of charity one C63 payment? If it does get it, I'll do the same.

I edited my first post to eliminate "new W205 motor revealed."

My point has been all along that the motor revealed today will be the motor found in the W205. I'm not trying to get caught up on the M177/M178 designation/nomenclature aspect.

I'm saying that the M177 will be a 4.0L biturbo V8 virtually identical to the M178.

And if that's that the bet (excluding the nomenclature aspect), I'll take it all day long.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Hey, if you have that much faith in Jalopnik, put your money where your mouth is then take my bet. We can even leave the power spec out of it.

How about it? W205 C63 gets the M178 V8 or you owe my choice of charity one C63 payment? If it does get it, I'll do the same.





Because I am not responsible for what Chris Harris or Jalopnik say, but I do take responsibility for the accuracy of what's said on this forum.

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

I edited my first post to eliminate "new W205 motor revealed."

My point has been all along that the motor revealed today will be the motor found in the W205. I'm not trying to get caught up on the M177/M178 designation/nomenclature aspect.

I'm saying that the M177 will be a 4.0L biturbo V8 virtually identical to the M178.

And if that's that the bet (excluding the nomenclature aspect), I'll take it all day long.

We will remember this one boys, and if suggestions of the donation location is needed, I have a ton of good ones.

[Law]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

Whoa . . . no need to get so defensive man. Aren't we on the same team? lol.

The M156 and M159 don't differ in terms of design. They are both 6.2L NA V8s - just like the M177 and M178 will be 4.0L biturbo V8s.

That's the point that I'm trying to make.

The largest chunk of the output difference is represented by different software tuning between the motors.

Other power gains were achieved in the SLS Black (M159) due to new camshafts, specially coated bucket tappets, a more efficient intake tract, more-durable crankshaft bearings, and a titanium exhaust system. They beefed up the parts. They didn't redesign a new power plant from the ground up.

I think what you're doing is very misleading. You are making it seem like the M156 and M159 are different engines with different designs.

And you're also making the same misleading argument about the M177 and M178.

The power output between the GT and C63 will of course differ, but their motors will share 90+ percent of the same internals and the exact same design.

I would be willing to bet you $100 PayPal that I'm right.

Same but different.
They are obviously related & based on the same block/architecture but they're not exactly the same.

Take the USDM 8th-gen Civic SI 2.0L I-4 vs the JDM (FD2) Civic Type-R 2.0 I-4.
Yes, they are both from the K20 block, both displace 1998cc, same block, same design. But at the same time, they are quite different. K20Z3 in the former, K20A in the latter; 11.1 C/O vs. 11.7, 197bhp vs 225ps, different heads, cams, redlines, etc.

So while both the Civic SI & Civic Type-R are related & have related K20 engines (i.e., same block/architecture), they are different engines. K20Z3 =/= K20A

Similarly, while both the M156 & M159 are 6.2 AMG V8's derived from the same AMG 6.2 M156 base block and manufactured in the same foundry by the same people, the known differences (in addition to the ones you mentioned above) such as a different [more aggressive] valvetrain, dry-sump lubrication, individual throttles, etc. do effectively render them different engines. It is not just "tuning" that yields near 100 BHP in an NA engine.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

I edited my first post to eliminate "new W205 motor revealed."

Ok, cool, but now it seems arbitrary to even have my post quoted in the first place. I mean, it's not exactly in direct reply to anything I said in that quote as far as I can see.

My point has been all along that the motor revealed today will be the motor found in the W205.

So you're point is to confirm that now that we know that AMG really was working on a 4.0L V8 engine family - which was a terribly kept secret, already leaked out by AMG folks and commonly accepted as a given, and already known to be powering the next generation of AMG vehicles - that now means we can just copy and paste everything revealed onto the future C63?

Today's announcement brings nothing new to the table as far as confirming C63 performance. Heck, we don't even know if the dry sump will be there in the C63. Personally I call that iffy at best and I would not be surprised at all if that is one of the differentiators between the M177 and M178.

And if that's that the bet (excluding the nomenclature aspect), I'll take it all day long.

So let me get this straight: if we remove all the important details, then you'll agree to the bet, right ?

I kid with you, but come on, of course I am not betting against a 4.0L V8 in the next C63. I've been taking about that for two years or more.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by Law

Same but different.
They are obviously related & based on the same block/architecture but they're not exactly the same.

Take the USDM 8th-gen Civic SI 2.0L I-4 vs the JDM (FD2) Civic Type-R 2.0 I-4.
Yes, they are both from the K20 block, both displace 1998cc, same block, same design. But at the same time, they are quite different. K20Z3 in the former, K20A in the latter; 11.1 C/O vs. 11.7, 197bhp vs 225ps, different heads, cams, redlines, etc.

So while both the Civic SI & Civic Type-R are related & have related K20 engines (i.e., same block/architecture), they are different engines. K20Z3 =/= K20A

Similarly, while both the M156 & M159 are 6.2 AMG V8's derived from the same AMG 6.2 M156 base block and manufactured in the same foundry by the same people, the known differences (in addition to the ones you mentioned above) such as a different [more aggressive] valvetrain, dry-sump lubrication, individual throttles, etc. do effectively render them different engines. It is not just "tuning" that yields near 100 BHP in an NA engine.

That's exactly what I said - that the engines are virtually identical with respect to overall design/displacement. But, due to some different internals (better to say in most instances "beefed up" internals) and correspondingly, distinct tuning setups, the motors each warrant unique code names/designations.

My point was that the M178 is a great preview of what the W205 motor will be like, as they will both be 4.0L biturbo motors that share architecture and design to a similar extent that the M156 and M159 did.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

So let me get this straight: if we remove all the important details, then you'll agree to the bet, right ?

I kid with you, but come on, of course I am not betting against a 4.0L V8 in the next C63. I've been taking about that for two years or more.

To me, the important details are not the engine's technical code name or designation. I'm more interested in the overall architecture and design.

I've never said the motors would be identical down to the last part or component. From the start, I said they'd be just as similar (if not more similar) than the M159 and M156.

Hey, I thought we were done discussing this?

[mkoesel]

The M133 told us most of what we needed to know about the architecture, but I agree it's nice to hear it from the horses mouth. Turbos in the valley isn't too big a surprise either since that's where we're at now for V8s (same as Audi and BMW).

I'm much more eager to know about C63 power in base and PP spec as well as pricing.

[Just_me]

Base version is getting 476hp while S version comes with 510 hp. It's not certain if the S version is available in US.

[jc05e46m3]

I wonder what vehicle weight will be. BMW brought it down and the overall power and torque up. Curious what the MB result will be.

[onatuesday]

Originally Posted by jc05e46m3

I wonder what vehicle weight will be. BMW brought it down and the overall power and torque up. Curious what the MB result will be.

Likely down as well as I believe that's the direction MB has said it's going

[e39>all]

Their power, v8 etc is intriguing, but I hate the looks of the new c-class and the direction they are going in that respect with many new models. The cla, and new c-class look decent from certain angles but fairly ugly from others. Even if they have a rocketship that destroys BMW in every performance aspect, my decision is still pretty easy, I want the f80 m3. The car has to have looks that I like and can live with to go along with the performance.

[SOM3]

500 HP...hmmmmmmm, I like it!

I'm excited to see what C63 will look like. So far I'm not the biggest fan of new C class but AMG models + engines always make the car bad ass.

[solstice]

The new c-class looks like the anti-thesis of a sports car. It 's just impossible to overcome for me personally no matter what magnificent motor it will get. It looks like ars to be honest. Humongous fail.

[Stevens21234]

^Ofcourse we'll get BMW homers on this forum..=).

Isn't the M3 weight comparable to the existing C63 model?

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Stevens21234

^Ofcourse we'll get BMW homers on this forum..=).

It's an honest opinion, I wish things were different since I'm ready to cut the ties from BMW. I don't like what they are doing to non M cars, at all. I have big hopes for Benz. Their F1 investment and results are hugely impressive to me. I really hope they get their design together but for now it's pure sh*t for my preferences. It used to be bad and it's just getting worse. Bling and luxury is their design language. Stomach turning.

[SOM3]

Originally Posted by solstice

It's an honest opinion, I wish things were different since I'm ready to cut the ties from BMW. I don't like what they are doing to non M cars, at all. I have big hopes for Benz. Their F1 investment and results are hugely impressive to me. I really hope they get their design together but for now it's pure sh*t for my preferences. It used to be bad and it's just getting worse. Bling and luxury is their design language. Stomach turning.

Maybe next generation Audi A4 variants will scratch your itch. New model should be right around the corner.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by SOM3

Maybe next generation Audi A4 variants will scratch your itch. New model should be right around the corner.

Maybe if they get their steering up to par. I was quite impressed by the current S4 but the steering is no good and overall it was no match for the E60 I was in while spending 24h with a brand new S4. I also thought it had a cheesy interior and overall felt like a wannabe lacking the more serious caliber of the E60 and was absolutely no match for the E90 M3 even if performance is omitted.

[gthal]

I love the C63 and this car will be a beast. Its Achilles Heal will be its transmission. For street cruising it is great but for harder use it leaves a lot to be desired relative to the DCT in the M cars. It was the one thing I didn't like about my C63... that and the C63 overheated like a bitch on the track and was heavy. Otherwise, the C63 is, and will be, a stellar car!

The one area the C63 will own the M is sound... they sound AMAZING!

[Art__Vandelay]

It surprises me that the new C Class is seen so negative here, as the car gets great compliments for its design (exterior and interior). When I talk to other people (friends, coworkers etc.), it seems like they're all positively surprised and they find it's a very good looking car in person (especially with AMG package).

[SOM3]

Originally Posted by solstice

Maybe if they get their steering up to par. I was quite impressed by the current S4 but the steering is no good and overall it was no match for the E60 I was in while spending 24h with a brand new S4. I also thought it had a cheesy interior and overall felt like a wannabe lacking the more serious caliber of the E60 and was absolutely no match for the E90 M3 even if performance is omitted.

Agreed S4 is no match for M3...even RS5 is nowhere near it when it comes to vehicle dynamics.

I was going to buy RS5 as a bridge car between E92 M3 and F8X. I then drove it and decided (very quickly) it was not for me. I love the way it looks though.