Track Car Dilemma

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I did it with an E46M, although you could say I started 'tracking' much earlier in life, it was just not in the USA or I'd be in jail

Fair point with the capabilities thing, however, that can be mitigated by using Conti ECS tires or something of the sort. Besides, according to some the F8X is a slow car at the track and impossible to be fast in

I actually race E36s. The degree to which they are money pits is truly out of this world.

If we need OP to get a less capable car, a 230i or something like that should suffice. Not a 20 year old platform.

we are a sub forum of RL so it makes sense everyone gives bad feedback on f80

Is there racing that isn’t $$$ other than IRacing? Seems like even karting can be stupid money if you want it to be

I am unfortunately learning first hand that even miata with $500 used gearboxes and $100 rear subframes can add up the cost

[theox05]

BTW, Im with Allstate, not USAA.

I chose to go with the M4. Unless, of course, the 135i I am looking at decides to go at a stupid low price.

Thanks for the advice here, its been quite helpful. I got in on the Apex wheels group buy and although my ship date is in late April (boooo), should work out before High Plains in late May.

I also hooked myself up with a Fanatec racing set for my PC and got rFactor 2 so I can practice at home as well as at the track.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

we are a sub forum of RL so it makes sense everyone gives bad feedback on f80

Is there racing that isn’t $$$ other than IRacing? Seems like even karting can be stupid money if you want it to be

I am unfortunately learning first hand that even miata with $500 used gearboxes and $100 rear subframes can add up the cost

I don't think so... it is incredible how expensive any kind of real racing is. Even winning the HPDE trophy is expensive in the fastest run group, but 'racing' even slow cars is a different level altogether.

It's funny when you are at AER for example and you notice a car by you has the Airbnb logo on the door. It turns out it's the team owned by the CTO of Airbnb... and the car is not even competitive.

I hope you're kidding about being a RL subforum!

[The HACK]

So THIS conversation has gone sideways, but I'll contribute to continue to take it off topic...

The discussion of running a cheap, old car vs. a new car and the cost of operations is an interesting one, and just like all things in life, the right answer is IT DEPENDS.

In reality...

If you go to the track 2-3 weekends a year, just drive around at DE pace, without the need to set personal AND track lap records every lap you're out there? It's probably cheaper just to drive what you bring. There's nothing in the consumables in the M3/M4 that would justify spending another $5,000 on a second car that may require another $4,000 to make it fully track worthy. Some pads and fluid, decent tires, couple of oil changes per year will last you at least 4-5 years before you bump that "cheap" track car budget. And if you drive within your means, go with an organization that doesn't put every yahoo that claims to have "racing experience" in the advanced group without vetting, AND if you purchase track insurance (or have auto insurance that covers track?) you have all but eliminated the need for a cheap track car...And by the time your operating cost racked up to the point of equalling a cheap track car? Well, your car IS now the cheap track car. Time to open the wallet and mod/fix away.

If you plan on going to 10-12 weekends a year, are looking to maximize your speed on track, have a set of MCS 3way with remote reservoir on order and 295 wide Hoosiers mounted on a new set of APEX wheels? And the organizations you're running with typically starts with "Extreme" or "Flat-out" or "Tuner's Challenge?" All of a sudden the cost of operating a new-ish M3/M4 vs an E36/E46 is flipped. The wear and tear on a chassis is going to be about the same, you're going to have all kinds of issues crop up on the new-ish M3/M4 that is going to cost significantly more to fix than an older chassis. Sure, the older chassis may require a re-weld of the subframe, or an added cage for structural stiffness, or overhaul of all the bushings. But so is the M3/M4. Give it time.

If you plan on time-trials or club racing? There's probably a good reason why some of the MORE competitive classes still run E36 M3s, with some of the costlier classes still running a generation behind (E9x). Because the newer the car, the more prohibitively expensive it is to run. At this point trying to build your new M3/M4 into a race car is probably not the best of ideas IMO.

Where the line gets REALLY murky, is if you are advanced or advanced intermediate...Someone comfortable enough to know what they're doing on track, can wring the car out for several laps at a time, and do anywhere between 5-8 weekends a year...The cost of running a new-ish M3/M4 is going to come out to roughly the same as say, if you buy an old E46 330i for $5,000, put a few grand into making it track worthy (bushings, suspension, brakes, tires, reinforce the subframe...etc), and have the peace of mind to know you can walk away from it and it wouldn't be devastating loss in monetary value. You do this for 1-2 years and the cost equalize, vs. having the peace of mind to know that WHEN an incident happens, you can still sell the mangled body of your E46 330i and recoup a few grand, vs. losing a $60,000+ car.

For everyone, that balance is different. I'm down from doing about 12 events a year before my daughter was born, to about 3-4 weekends a year, and almost always with BMW CCA running in the instructor group with a bunch of yahoos I've known, trusted, and respected as drivers (as human beings? That's probably another story). My risk levels are relatively low, so I've never bothered to buy that salvage title E90 328i and turn it into a track only car.

But your mileage, as they say, WILL vary.

[Mandi90TT]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Where the line gets REALLY murky, is if you are advanced or advanced intermediate...Someone comfortable enough to know what they're doing on track, can wring the car out for several laps at a time, and do anywhere between 5-8 weekends a year.

That's me. And I've decided that owning a track ready car like the F8x and not taking it to the track is a sin.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Dave 90TT

That's me. And I've decided that owning a track ready car like the F8x and not taking it to the track is a sin.

There's that too. Like I said, your mileage WILL vary.

For a while, I struggled with the thought too. My MZ4 Coupe is so much fun to drive at the track, but it is relatively low in production (4,xxx built world wide, 1,8xx sold in NA) and appreciating in value that there's some thoughts of retiring it from active track duty.

Then you fire it up...And all thoughts of retiring it from track just disappears.

[MaynardZed]

Solid points everyone. Neither option is "cheap". I think it comes down to how many track days you do per year and what kind of track driving you'll be doing. If you're just doing a handful of DE's per year, sticking with an M4 is a solid choice. If you really want to get seriously into TT and racing (obviously), you'll want a dedicated car. Not to say you can't do TT in an M4, it's just that it won't be very competitive for it's class compared to the fully developed track cars.

For me, the answer is to have both! Majority of the time I'm racing, but when the E36 breaks or gets hit, its nice to have a dual purpose street car to jump into and run to the track, maybe do some TT if I want. Depends on your level of addiction.

[nicknaz]

So do you guys want to share cost for De weekend?

When I used F80 versus track car, the track insurance and tires of F80 were order of magnitude higher (eg $500 per weekend vs $50).

I used my SM for DE last year while working towards getting my novice comp permit so it’s apples to apples.

I just learned about using take off HoHo and Toyo R tires from the front runners and this will further reduce running cost.

I’m in the 12-15 weekends per year camp, so this is a no brainer route for me. When I was at 6 DE per weekend, I know I was using up way more cost per weekend but just ignored it

[MaynardZed]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

So do you guys want to share cost for De weekend?

No, we don’t want to do that.

I know SM are one of the most cost effective cars to run, but $50 per weekend?

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

No, we don’t want to do that.

I know SM are one of the most cost effective cars to run, but $50 per weekend?

Hi, so I was just comparing tires and maintenance and insurance. I didn’t account for fuel or stuffing the car

Also it was $62 per weekend not $50.

Checked my receipts and I paid $239 in pads and rotors (g loc R10 front and R8 rear + centric rotors) for the year, $500 in fluid services and alignment check (2x $250 service... 1 per 5 weekends), so $739 for the year and I did 12 weekends. I didn’t buy any track insurance

Note: I was doing DE to fulfill school requirements, not w2w last year, so I was not stickering up on Toyo RR every 2-3 weekends.

Note2: got car in Nov 2017 for $12k mostly built (still with plates!) and paid $0.5k to get emissions and other stuffs sorted out, $1k for data logger dash and $1k for some other safety gear and annual inspection to get logbook. I paid these but didn’t factor in above as they were competition related prep cost, not relevant to someone who just wanted to DE

[theox05]

Sorry to dredge this up again, but after another year of doing events, really starting to look into a dedicated car. Also helped by the fact that I spun at High Plains (no damage, car and I are fine). However, I also took about a 5 gallon bucket of dirt into the driver's side window. You know, that dusty, hard to get out Colorado dust? My wife took one look at that and said I needed another car

My short list right now kinda looks like this:

1) NC Miata
2) C5 'Vette Z06
3) E46 M3
4) E92 M3

I looked hard at the e46 330ci, but that thousand page thread about the oil pump nut over there kinda killed it for me.

Any other options I should be looking at? Tips?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by theox05

Sorry to dredge this up again, but after another year of doing events, really starting to look into a dedicated car. Also helped by the fact that I spun at High Plains (no damage, car and I are fine). However, I also took about a 5 gallon bucket of dirt into the driver's side window. You know, that dusty, hard to get out Colorado dust? My wife took one look at that and said I needed another car

My short list right now kinda looks like this:

1) NC Miata
2) C5 'Vette Z06
3) E46 M3
4) E92 M3

I looked hard at the e46 330ci, but that thousand page thread about the oil pump nut over there kinda killed it for me.

Any other options I should be looking at? Tips?

Out of those I only have direct experience with the E46 and the E92 and would vastly prefer the E92

Unless you have small tracks nearby I wouldn't get a Miata. Power is fun in and of itself. The Miata doesn't have enough of it, although it clearly will make you a good driver. However, using an E9X to keep up with 991 GT3s will also make you a better driver

[MaynardZed]

Originally Posted by theox05

Sorry to dredge this up again, but after another year of doing events, really starting to look into a dedicated car. Also helped by the fact that I spun at High Plains (no damage, car and I are fine). However, I also took about a 5 gallon bucket of dirt into the driver's side window. You know, that dusty, hard to get out Colorado dust? My wife took one look at that and said I needed another car

My short list right now kinda looks like this:

1) NC Miata
2) C5 'Vette Z06
3) E46 M3
4) E92 M3

I looked hard at the e46 330ci, but that thousand page thread about the oil pump nut over there kinda killed it for me.

Any other options I should be looking at? Tips?

Can you trailer it to the track or must the car be street driven to and from? Budget?

Good list. Personally, I'd get the lightest weight car that you like and can fit in nicely. Non M E46 or and E36 is still a good choice, takes an hour to weld or wire the oil pump nut and put baffles in the pan. Not a big deal.

C5Z is the best bang for the buck on your list. I know one that's track ready and for sale FYI. $19K IIRC

[theox05]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

Can you trailer it to the track or must the car be street driven to and from? Budget?

Non M E46 or and E36 is still a good choice, takes an hour to weld or wire the oil pump nut and put baffles in the pan. Not a big deal.

1) Cant trailer right now, but def an option later down the road. It'll start as a street/track car (but only driven when needed to the track or service appointments)

2) See, I read that and then people chimed in with "yes, but if you weld or wire it the imbalance will cause the shaft to shear off and your engine is dead."

[fackamato]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

As an avid track rat I would steer you as far away as possible from a dedicated track car.

You have just started tracking. You have much to learn young padawan.

Get some camber plates, track pads and you can track the M4 to your heart's delight. This will be much cheaper than buying a trailer and tow vehicle to drive the 'track' car there.

Plenty of companies offer track insurance dedicated to HPDE events, which is still cheaper than getting a dedicated car.

As an instructor I assure you no one is getting into accidents in the lower run groups. Once you make it to the top run group then it's a different story and that's the moment where a 'dedicated' car starts making sense

This is precisely what I'm doing with my 2017 M3. Track insurance for each event, track pads, track wheels/tires. All the tools and wheels fit in the M3 so no need to trailer anything. Camber plates are next.

edit: The big cost is the track day insurance, which I think is from $250-$350, YMMV.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by fackamato

This is precisely what I'm doing with my 2017 M3. Track insurance for each event, track pads, track wheels/tires. All the tools and wheels fit in the M3 so no need to trailer anything. Camber plates are next.

edit: The big cost is the track day insurance, which I think is from $250-$350, YMMV.

With how ridiculously fast an F8X is you can track it with 5 mods and be fast as hell.

[Gomeler]

Multi-quote time!

Originally Posted by theox05

Sorry to dredge this up again, but after another year of doing events, really starting to look into a dedicated car. Also helped by the fact that I spun at High Plains (no damage, car and I are fine). However, I also took about a 5 gallon bucket of dirt into the driver's side window. You know, that dusty, hard to get out Colorado dust? My wife took one look at that and said I needed another car

My short list right now kinda looks like this:

1) NC Miata
2) C5 'Vette Z06
3) E46 M3
4) E92 M3

I looked hard at the e46 330ci, but that thousand page thread about the oil pump nut over there kinda killed it for me.

Any other options I should be looking at? Tips?

You never define what your goals are. Colorado has a healthy SM community with NASA, and AFAIK a healthy GTS2 community. I don't think Spec E46 is really taking off. Spec MX-5 is too new to have a community. If you are looking to improve your driving technique then I'll parrot "miata is always the answer".

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Out of those I only have direct experience with the E46 and the E92 and would vastly prefer the E92

Unless you have small tracks nearby I wouldn't get a Miata. Power is fun in and of itself. The Miata doesn't have enough of it, although it clearly will make you a good driver. However, using an E9X to keep up with 991 GT3s will also make you a better driver

It sounds like this guy is relatively new to tracking cars. I'm maybe 5 years into this w2w racing thing, and I just finished up another weekend racing a.. 1.6L Miata with WRL at Hallett. I'm still sold on the NA6 Miata being the starter car for everybody. Do a year with ~20 days of open lapping in a NA6 Miata with a stack of 200tw tires, then add power.

Originally Posted by theox05

1) Cant trailer right now, but def an option later down the road. It'll start as a street/track car (but only driven when needed to the track or service appointments)

2) See, I read that and then people chimed in with "yes, but if you weld or wire it the imbalance will cause the shaft to shear off and your engine is dead."

Don't know your financial state, but I'll just say getting an enclosed trailer to pull behind my X5 made a dedicated track car a much nicer experience. Your tools stay clean and dry, you can camp out in the back of the trailer(HPR doesn't have close/decent hotels), and when you inevitably ball up the car you can winch it into the trailer and ignore it for a month or three.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

With how ridiculously fast an F8X is you can track it with 5 mods and be fast as hell.

But high HP cars tend to teach people to point and shoot on corners. That works, but is it really what we want for new drivers?

[MaynardZed]

Originally Posted by theox05

2) See, I read that and then people chimed in with "yes, but if you weld or wire it the imbalance will cause the shaft to shear off and your engine is dead."

Nope, not true. Walk around at NASA nationals and you'll see literally dozens of S52/M52 and M54 motors competing at the highest amateur level. Heck there's even a whole NASA spec racing series for E46 with the M54 motors. They're actually pretty tough motors. My current engine in my E36 race car has 220K miles on it and it cost me $1500 from a junk yard. I've raced it for a year and a half and have beat the living piss out of it.

You know, another important thing to really look at is what race shops do a good job of supporting which platforms located near you. Unless you're one of those that will be doing all the work yourself, you'll want to find a good shop that you get along with near you.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Gomeler

It sounds like this guy is relatively new to tracking cars. I'm maybe 5 years into this w2w racing thing, and I just finished up another weekend racing a.. 1.6L Miata with WRL at Hallett. I'm still sold on the NA6 Miata being the starter car for everybody. Do a year with ~20 days of open lapping in a NA6 Miata with a stack of 200tw tires, then add power.


But high HP cars tend to teach people to point and shoot on corners. That works, but is it really what we want for new drivers?

Not sure if you were referring to me with the first paragraph. I stand by my comment, power is fun yet driving a slower car will generally make you a faster driver.


High HP cars can teach bad habits, although it's really a matter of what you're competing against.
If you have an F80 and are racing E36s, then yeah, you don't have to learn to corner at all as you can just power away from them. But if you're racing 991 GT3s then you do not have a power advantage and will be forced to dig deeper.

An F80 may be too fast for most as a first track day car, however, if OP already has one then he can make lemonade out of lemons and keep using it. If he were buying it new as a track car it's probably better to get an earlier generation.
There's at least one forum member here that has already accomplished a 2:10 lap with an F8X at WGI with stock brakes, suspension and street tires during his first season of tracking ever. The F8X is not nearly fast enough to get that time by just stomping on the gas pedal in every straight, so at least for that driver the F8X is an appropriately specced car.

[theox05]

Let me answer a couple Qs that came up.

1) Goals: Would like to do W2W racing. Not looking to go pro or anything, but I do love to compete and the camaraderie of a shared love/interest. Looking hard at GTS, Enduro, and TT. Yes, I know the Vette is in the Unlimited class of Enduro, but man it is a good deal for what you get!

2) Trailer: Its not really about money, its about the fact that my tow vehicle right now is a Rubicon (3.5k towing capacity, sucks). That will probably change in the future, but not for at least another year.

3) Budget is sub 20k.

[Gomeler]

In Colorado you are going to be towing a ton if you focus on enduros. Plan on a lot of 5-day weekends, as outside of HPR everything is a 10-20 hour tow.

Another warning, your nice $8k Drago SM motor is a bad idea for endurance racing. In one WRL weekend you will rack up more engine time than an entire sprint season. You will pop motors if you don't proactively replace them, and this applies to all spec classes with fancy motor builds.

If I were getting into w2w racing in Colorado, I would pick a class with solid fields and aim to hit every weekend they run. You want to race against crowded fields, as you'll best learn in a class where it doesn't turn into open-lapping by lap 3. In our region I believe NASA is far healthier than SCCA and PCA. Spec Miata and GTS2/3 are the strongest fields I believe, I think Spec Miata is averaging 25 cars/weekend and GTS2/3 are at around 6-10/weekend.

Anywho, hope you find a w2w car that satisfies you. I am debating between GTS2 and GTS3 myself so as to have a reason to buy an e46.

[NYG]

C5

/thread