savagegeese F80 M3 review - "One of the best things BMW has done in modern history"

[clee1982]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

That headline to this thread misleading. It's one line out of a nearly 30 minute review.

I thought he hit the nail on the head with this review. Objectively you can't argue with how good the F8X is. But for those of us used to the E9X chassis, this car feels sterile and overly refined. At the end he summed it up correctly: the overwhelming majority of people don't want to feel any feedback through the steering. The M3/4, while a niche vehicle technically, still sells in the tens of thousands over the course of its lifespan. They consciously chose to dial out that "visceral" driving feeling that always defined BMW. What's left is a car that is objectively great on paper but subjectively somewhat boring.

At least they made the point of stating this problem isn't unique to BMW. Even modern Porsches are subjectively less "fun" than they used to be.

Or you need to get GT3 to get that kind of fun...

[clee1982]

Originally Posted by Pic18

Although in the end he admitted it is a great car, i found it interesting that he mentioned in the middle of the video he preferred something with a bit of "drama" (or something to that effect) and has character (i.e. is not necessarily easy to drive, but rewarding). Then he went on to explain how the F80 can be tail happy (the definition of Drama) and a challenge to drive.

So basically he said he didn't like the F80 because lacked character and drama, but mentioned the drama of driving it.

I don't know, too many manufacturers associate tail happy with drama, I'm not quite sure that's the right path. He says he wants precision driving, if his drama is nail the apex too tail happy can get a bit annoying

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by clee1982

Or you need to get GT3 to get that kind of fun...

I second that

[secretariat]

My m3 makes me climax every time I get on a highway merge. Rippin through the gears with my DCT makes me feel like a frickin F1 driver.

Moonshine why do you feel let down by this review? It sounds to me like you are enjoying your M3, who cares what he says. Enjoy your ride, it's yours.

[M3GymNut]

I understand that most people on here are probably going to mentally put him against the wall and throw darts at him, but some things that he says are hard to comprehend on why he would critique it so much to the point like hes trying to convince you the viewer on why the car has it's flaws instead of him sharing it like just his opinion and move forward. For example at roughly 18:57 he goes on to say that the car is made for a specific person and buyer but his tone and the way he comes off is as if that's a negative toward the car. A roughly $75k vehicle of course will be for a specific individual and not to the masses. Don't understand his reasoning or point of saying a comment like that.

[M3GymNut]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I would argue that you still have the full control over DCT shifts just like on a 6MT.

Says every DCT owner on these forums...

[minn19]

Originally Posted by M3GymNut

Says every DCT owner on these forums...

Why is this funny or controversial? While I prefer manuals over DCTs, I could control when I wanted to shift like my 6MTs.

[M3GymNut]

Originally Posted by minn19

Why is this funny or controversial? While I prefer manuals over DCTs, I could control when I wanted to shift like my 6MTs.

Because to say you have just as much control of a vehicle using auto vs manual is just silly. I'm not making this a DCT vs 6MT debate, it's just with a manual you will have the most control over an auto. It just sounds like he's trying to convince himself more then telling his opinion on the matter.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by M3GymNut

Because to say you have just as much control of a vehicle using auto vs manual is just silly. I'm not making this a DCT vs 6MT debate, it's just with a manual you will have the most control over an auto. It just sounds like he's trying to convince himself more then telling his opinion on the matter.

I think he was meaning on a road course/track, but I'll stay out of this one.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by clee1982

Or you need to get GT3 to get that kind of fun...

But you used to not have to get a GT3 to have a fun time.

Last time I drove a Boxster I was frankly...bored. In a straight line the car has the same issue the F80 does, you don't feel anything from the road surface. Only when you turn the wheel does it weigh up a bit and of course, changes direction quickly.

Why must one have to get the most expensive Porsche in the range to feel truly connected to the car.

[sjuhawks19]

All I could think about watching this is how much he looks (and kind of talks) like Dana White.

[erictrainer]

I think this review needs some context which is what most people may have not realized when viewing this. Dude owns and drives an Ariel Atom, while he dailys a now defunct beater Honda Civic... let that settle in. He also has extensively tracked and owned S2000s ( I believe he has now sold... although I'm not sure). The point is the guy is a real car guy, with well above average driving skills and also some real mechanical knowledge. His opinion is a qualified one, nonetheless someone's take on a car, albeit a very qualified one. But if you understand where he's coming from, you can read through his comments. Many F8X owners have never tracked their cars, and never will and that's a reality. BMW has to build a car with many compromises, it's not just about driving 10/10s all the time. Many people will never even drive at that level anyway. He even says it as an almost sad realization that that is the reality all car manufacturers face.

When he said that he wanted a more "weekend car" that resonated with me a lot. Personally, I constantly ponder over selling my F80 and buying some sort of crazy weekend car and a daily. The truth is, that is a lot more expensive and far less practical. So in the meantime my compromise is the F80, and at that there is no better car IMHO. I still love my F80 and like him, I'm marveled by what a great piece of engineering it is. Yet everyday, at the end of the day I wish I was driving a no compromise weekend car. To me that is the gist of his review.

[Richbot]

To enjoy driving one must be driving and one is driving daily in something - I understand wanting a daily plus a more extreme car but in my experience the nutballs car just sits while you drive whatever compromised thing you've chosen for yourself. For people with the means, maybe that can be an M car daily plus a Huayra or a GT3 or a miata on the weekends, but for most people, it's not economical or practical for lots of reasons.

My choice is the '08 E90M that I have dailied since it was new and I will never sell it or stop driving it, I think it's the best car ever built at any price. It's bananas fun on track, perfectly comfortable every day, and above all, a great car to operate as a real actual human organism with feelings. But if all the E90M's vanished from the planet tomorrow, I'd be sad, and then I'd get an F80M. It's truly a near-perfect car, and for every downside vs. the E90M, there's an upside in usability, speed, etc. Now that we can look upon the whole model run, and compare it to its competition, it's clear BMW M hit a home run with the F80.

The F82, meh, fast coupes are everywhere. But the sedan is something special.

[Serious]

these posts are absolutely hilarious. keep it going.

[tropicalypso]

No drama? I kiss the ground of my garage every time I get home in my car, just because I haven't killed myself or gotten thrown in jail.

[cotmfk]

I finally got around to watching the video. It is full of contradictions. So you can take whatever you want from the video and you'd be correct. "It's boring." "It slides all over the place." "It's clinically fast." "It's challenging to drive."

I'm sitting here wondering why I wasted 30 minutes of my time. (Actually 24 or so... couldn't even make it through the whole thing.)

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by minn19

Scales and weights are all over the place. My MT ZCP M3 with CF roof just extended leather and exec was 36XX. My base M4 CS (lightest version) came in at 3630. Minus 60 pounds for the DCT penalty still puts it in high 35XX. I really don’t see how a non CS M3 gets into the 34XX. M2s are barely that.

Edit: Both were on the same scales done at a BMW dealership by the shop foreman who is a long time BMW track rat/fan. Both also had between half a and 3/4 of a tank of gas IIRC.

My CS F80, 3600.

There is lots of 'variability' when it comes to weighing cars... some forget the tools/manual and only have '3 gallons' in the tank...

I called bullshit regarding the F8X weight from the day it was announced. Ended up having to buy one to effectively declare that yup, it's bullshit!

My 6MT E92 M3 on the same scale... 3600lb

[jvit27]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

You are correct that "emotional connection" is totally subjective. But if enough people complain about it there has to be truth to it. I don't think I've read a single review/comparison test that didn't mention the lack of steering feedback in the F8X chassis. The car feels so refined...to a fault.

Originally Posted by No.401_Speed

There is a familiar refrain in the comments of an Autocar & Motor review of the E36 M3 published way back in 1992 with those posted by Mark in his Savage Geese video.

You be the judge and when reading this writer's impressions, substitute the obvious emotional attachments he had to the E30 M3 with those expressed by Mark for his E92 in comparison with the F80. The pattern is repeated and the points virtually identical. Then place these into the context of your personal experiences and emotional responses to the F80/F82.

"The self-conscious '90s call for purity of line to replace the bulging be-winged machismo that so distinguished the M3 in the carefree '80s.

Take another look at that gear lever. M3s used to put first, not fifth, out on its own, in classic racing style. No more. It's a small point, especially as BMW says a conventional layout is the more popular, but it is significant.

Anyone who has driven the latest 3 Series will feel at home as immediately as any old M3 driver will feel alienated. I struggled to see the difference between this and the 325i Coupe that had been my transport for the previous week. Where was the thrill, that raw seam of inspiration that, in M3s of yore, captured your heart and mind as soon as you saw the car and didn't let go until you were safely home again?

It may have six cylinders, but the heart and soul of the M3 lives and breathes in this engine as much as ever before....but, the same cannot be said for the chassis and steering. The old M3's precision, it's essence of all that is good in a racing car's chassis distilled into a civilized road machine, is gone.

The M3 has missed the point. It is not the first car to mistake pace for pleasure and it will surely not be the last, but if you expect it to encapsulate the spirit of the true road racer as it's forerunner did so well, you are likely to be disappointed. I know I was."

I've seen this pattern throughout my lifetime. Some folks just can't let go of the past and acknowledge that modern applications of tech are better, while being a bit more sterile, than previous designs. We can expect that similar comments have been made as each new generation of M3 hit the show room floor.

I take my driving cues from my eyes and the seat of my pants and don't quite understand the mysticism surrounding steering wheel feedback. OK, I'm an amateur, I don't race cars for a living, so maybe I've never gained that insight. But if each generation of M3 has "lost" something of it's predecessor, then why is the F80/F82 so vastly superior to the original E30 M3. I once watched a documentary of an old M2000 fighter pilot bemoaning the lack of "feel" from his new F16 Falcon, so it's a common refrain.

Frankly, this is precisely the reason that I opted to purchase a modern, state of the art sports coupe versus spending bags of money rescuing a 1960-1970's muscle car. I prefer modern tech to old. In that the Savage Geese review devoted so much time praising the technical precision of the car and then had to revert to criticizing the car on the basis of the psychology of the experience and digging very deep to compare it to a Hellcat, well, that just spoke to me as having too few things to complain about.

It's a great car boys, it's unique, beautifully styled and expertly engineered and yes, one day you too will be able to draw comparisons to the F80/F82 when judging the G80's lack of feedback, sterile driving experience and loss of driver focus at BMW. I say, bring it on (just ditch that ugly grill!!)

Speaking from a racing/motorsport background, I personally don't get the heavy emphasis on hydraulic steering "feel". It's a bit more comprehensive to understand what a chassis is doing and if you rely solely on the steering wheel to feel bumps you're missing A LOT of data. But nowadays the EPS ratios are so much more intuitive with your hand movements it's a worthwhile tradeoff IMO

Especially in this context while comparing to the the E30/E36/E46 people forget the steering systems in those cars were so slow & isolated that swapping racks with faster ratios is a popular mod. Many of us have deleted rubber steering giubos and bushings to gain PRECISION back. Combined with the softer chassis and older tire/damper technology of yore, you're glorifying cars that have a ton of deflection compared to the new stuff that is so much stiffer and more responsive.

As always it comes down to peoples' driving ability. People like the older cars because the limit is lower and more in line with what they can feel. The more capable these new cars become, the more accuracy they can deliver at a much higher limit. But most drivers' don't have enough hertz in the seat of their pants to FEEL what the car can communicate. And this is the plight that modern supercars have - they have to be pushed to a much higher limit than can be done on public roads to appreciate. The refinement engineered into them to filter out the unnecessary 'noise' at slower speeds is what disengages those who can't see the actual improvements in how a car loads up the suspension, reacts to inputs, distributes the weight, manages the power, etc etc.

[georgere]

Judging by title, no need to read the article. Unless of course bmw modern history is from 2014, when f8x came out, until 2018 when m5 and m2 comp came out. Not that they are much better but they did address some if the f80 issues, partially each. Truest best car of this generation is gulia qv

[adc]

Originally Posted by Richbot

To enjoy driving one must be driving and one is driving daily in something - I understand wanting a daily plus a more extreme car but in my experience the nutballs car just sits while you drive whatever compromised thing you've chosen for yourself. For people with the means, maybe that can be an M car daily plus a Huayra or a GT3 or a miata on the weekends, but for most people, it's not economical or practical for lots of reasons.

My choice is the '08 E90M that I have dailied since it was new and I will never sell it or stop driving it, I think it's the best car ever built at any price. It's bananas fun on track, perfectly comfortable every day, and above all, a great car to operate as a real actual human organism with feelings. But if all the E90M's vanished from the planet tomorrow, I'd be sad, and then I'd get an F80M. It's truly a near-perfect car, and for every downside vs. the E90M, there's an upside in usability, speed, etc. Now that we can look upon the whole model run, and compare it to its competition, it's clear BMW M hit a home run with the F80.

The F82, meh, fast coupes are everywhere. But the sedan is something special.

This.

I challenge all those who says it lacks drama. Perhaps you need to extend the chassis towards the limit, it is an incredible adrenaline delivery system when you do so. If all you have experienced is a ride along the block with the friendly salesperson in the passenger seat, then please refrain from commenting.


I gave a ride to an instructor who races his heavily modified E46 in NASA, and he was amazed at what this chassis can do. (And yes, his car was more exciting . Then I drove my car home, and he trailered his race car back home and drove an Audi the next day.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by THEROK

The F8X authentically appeals to those who really care to appreciate the motorsport derived and engineered details throughout.
.

I wish BMW would decide to just say F it and forget the daily driver part of things and just go all out performance

Throw on JRZ coilovers, enduro capable brake pads, and 305 wide square setup of Nt01 or other R tire, and depower the steering rack.

F you power steering and concessions to commuting!

Never going to happen but would be nice!

Then sell an “m3 touring” with pss tires and sound proofing and the current adjustable suspension

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

I wish BMW would decide to just say F it and forget the daily driver part of things and just go all out performance

They could build their own "The Homer" but they'll probably lose their shirt in such a design..