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      01-31-2020, 10:26 AM   #837
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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Chevrolet Camaro (not even the ZL1 1LE. Just the regular SS 1LE)
Ford Mustang GT350/350R/500
Toyota Supra

Just to name 3 off the top of my head. Other cars that have bested the M2 Competition and can and will go head to head against the M4:

Tesla Model 3 Performance
Most of the Porsche 911 line-up


I'm using the ring for my basis:

Camaro I concur is a good value, I saw a video by motor trend I think comparing both.
Supra, M4 and M2 comp all same track times.
Mustang you listed are more expensive
Porshe 911 way more expensive
Tesla 3 terrible winter DD.
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      01-31-2020, 10:45 AM   #838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Chevrolet Camaro (not even the ZL1 1LE. Just the regular SS 1LE)
Ford Mustang GT350/350R/500
Toyota Supra

Just to name 3 off the top of my head. Other cars that have bested the M2 Competition and can and will go head to head against the M4:

Tesla Model 3 Performance
Most of the Porsche 911 line-up
I am not the Track expert but have done a few laps and with a few other brands (luckily).

Only, and only the last line makes sense but in another category.
Mustang, Supra, must be a joke to consider a "MUCH" better track car. In fact, it is not even slightly better...
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      01-31-2020, 03:05 PM   #839
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Chevrolet Camaro (not even the ZL1 1LE. Just the regular SS 1LE)
Ford Mustang GT350/350R/500
Toyota Supra

Just to name 3 off the top of my head. Other cars that have bested the M2 Competition and can and will go head to head against the M4:

Tesla Model 3 Performance
Most of the Porsche 911 line-up
I'm not going to sit here and tell you the M2 is a track monster because it's very definitely not. But it's okay as a track car and is somewhere between more practical and way more practical than any of the cars you listed.

The Camaro does come close though and gets props for being the only one that's significantly less expensive.

Can you imagine using a Tesla as a track car? The entire way there you'd be thinking "every mile I drive on the way to the track makes my car slightly slower."
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      01-31-2020, 03:41 PM   #840
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Last night I saw 2 series with vanity plate "M2Lite".

To me driving an M is appreciating the fact that the M is not just another BMW, its different. It has gone through a bit more finesse in its design and planning, something more than just getting you from A to B. It has small subtleties of options "included" that a regular spec series does not. It has some options that the regular series does not.

Owning an M is more about the driver, than the car. The guy who appreciates those differences is what makes an M an M car. So to the guy who bought the whatever series M240 and thinks its an "M2Lite" - I say you don't understand the concept of M and I'm happy you bought your diet version.
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      01-31-2020, 06:03 PM   #841
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I understand your argument here.
The guy or girl who owns that M240 is just proud of ownership.
What I don't like are the people who put an M badge on. Unless the factory slapped that M badge on, you don't have the right to stick one on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Drv4fun View Post
Last night I saw 2 series with vanity plate "M2Lite".

To me driving an M is appreciating the fact that the M is not just another BMW, its different. It has gone through a bit more finesse in its design and planning, something more than just getting you from A to B. It has small subtleties of options "included" that a regular spec series does not. It has some options that the regular series does not.

Owning an M is more about the driver, than the car. The guy who appreciates those differences is what makes an M an M car. So to the guy who bought the whatever series M240 and thinks its an "M2Lite" - I say you don't understand the concept of M and I'm happy you bought your diet version.
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      01-31-2020, 06:37 PM   #842
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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post

Tesla Model 3 Performance
Maybe at the drag strip or auto-x, but not on the circuit. It's not practical. The car starts to experience performance loss after just 4-5 laps. I'm just getting warmed up at that point.
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      01-31-2020, 06:59 PM   #843
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Is M just a badge?

M is special to me because it is more focused on what I am interested in a car. It has purpose, legacy, integrity. You knew what you were getting. However, what I want is the car wearing the badge, not the badge itself. What I want is an M3/4. Putting an M in front of a 340i alone doesn't change the car. Inversely, omitting the badge doesn't downgrade the car.

In other words–"M" is more than the badge, but it's also just an "M" badge. If we are hinging the worthiness of a car on just the badge, then perhaps we've missed the point.
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      01-31-2020, 10:39 PM   #844
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Maybe at the drag strip or auto-x, but not on the circuit. It's not practical. The car starts to experience performance loss after just 4-5 laps. I'm just getting warmed up at that point.


A Tesla Model 3 Performance with track mode enabled and some suspension mods won Global Time Attack at Buttonwillow in its class.

For a 4,000lbs car, it is shockingly (no pun intended) competent one stock form and with some minor mods, a slayer of other giants on track.
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      01-31-2020, 10:48 PM   #845
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You guys miss my point.

It used to be, that no other manufacturer besides the one in Stuttgart can compete with BMW on the twisty stuff. You’d have to step way up onto the exotic level for anything that would put a BMW, ANY BMW, to shame on track.

Now a days a f**king $35k Honda with decent tires will give the best ///M has a run for its money. HONDA. And Toyot. Brands we used to make fun of as appliances on wheels. Making your average BMW look BAD.

Not to mention Chevys and Fords besting the halo BMWs. And we’re not even talking about the ZR1 and the GT. Even just 10 years ago if you tell me a Mustang is a better track car than a BMW M3, I’d tell you you’re nuts and the world is about to end, because that is for SURE the final sign of the apocalypse.

Sure enough, the GT350/350R/500 are ALL better than the latest M3/4 on track. This used to be inconceivable. The dilution of the brand is complete, you want a REAL enthusiast car? BMW won’t be the first brand I’d look at.

Again, lifetime BMW CCA member and owner of more than a dozen BMWs in the last 25 years talking here.
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      01-31-2020, 11:04 PM   #846
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drv4fun View Post
Last night I saw 2 series with vanity plate "M2Lite".

To me driving an M is appreciating the fact that the M is not just another BMW, its different. It has gone through a bit more finesse in its design and planning, something more than just getting you from A to B. It has small subtleties of options "included" that a regular spec series does not. It has some options that the regular series does not.

Owning an M is more about the driver, than the car. The guy who appreciates those differences is what makes an M an M car. So to the guy who bought the whatever series M240 and thinks its an "M2Lite" - I say you don't understand the concept of M and I'm happy you bought your diet version.
Owning an ///M is definitely more about the driver than the car.
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      01-31-2020, 11:34 PM   #847
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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Maybe at the drag strip or auto-x, but not on the circuit. It's not practical. The car starts to experience performance loss after just 4-5 laps. I'm just getting warmed up at that point.


A Tesla Model 3 Performance with track mode enabled and some suspension mods won Global Time Attack at Buttonwillow in its class.

For a 4,000lbs car, it is shockingly (no pun intended) competent one stock form and with some minor mods, a slayer of other giants on track.
I didn't say it wasn't fast. : it's just not practical... yet.
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      02-01-2020, 07:03 AM   #848
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The 'real M' fan boys wouldn't like this the B58 equipped supra (just like in in m240i and m340i) just dusted M2c at Laguna seca driven back to back by Randy Pobst. With the same guy on the same track m850i faster than M2c stock for stock on the same day. Another poster mentioned M850i even faster on Laguna Seca than F90 M5

Guys that track superiority may not be always true
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      02-02-2020, 12:33 AM   #849
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Originally Posted by babaikram View Post
The 'real M' fan boys wouldn't like this the B58 equipped supra (just like in in m240i and m340i) just dusted M2c at Laguna seca driven back to back by Randy Pobst. With the same guy on the same track m850i faster than M2c stock for stock on the same day. Another poster mentioned M850i even faster on Laguna Seca than F90 M5

Guys that track superiority may not be always true
Yeah M cars SUCK! Might as well be driving huge pieces of turd. /s

The M850i is in a different league than an M2. I can hit triple digits quite easily in an M850i. It's a rocket.

"Dusted" isn't a word I would use for 0.3s.

Also, Supra weighs less and has a lower center of gravity. It's a sports car. The M2 is still a sports coupe, there is a small but significant difference.

I'm pretty sure the S58 in the G80 will be far superior to the B58 in the G20.
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      02-02-2020, 03:53 AM   #850
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The M340 has the same exact aluminum suspension (with a ///M stamp), brakes and identical electronic 100% locking LSD as a "real" M car..

Does it need to be anointed by the M gods themselves for it to be christen a true M car?

I get that you guys are trying to distinguish between the two variants but the pie has been cut so thin nowadays that separating M and M Performance is almost a pointless exercise, other than for the bragging rights.

I'll be honest, I didn't think much of the M340i before I drove one but man, that car is a rocket, handles just as good as an M2 and is as M as it's really all one would need for regular road driving, with a little pep.

The electronic 100% locking LSD was the crown-jewel of all M cars over the standard models but now that BMW has leveled the playing field and made them common amongst all, so I really don't see the advantage of an official M car anymore.
First off, we don't have the G80 yet so how can you know it has the same suspension as the M car? Because to be frank, it does not. The suspension arms used in the M340i are exactly what are used in all the other cars except for one component, the suspension strut. The sheet metal is all the same. The interior leather is the same as the regular G20. There's no carbon fiber roof. The bumper is the same as the regular M Sport model. The only thing different is just to accommodate the extra power and some visual bits like the grille and badge.

I'm not saying the M340i isn't a great car. It absolutely is. But an M car has always had unique body panels and unique suspension geometry (significantly unique, not just a slightly revised strut). The F80 also had standard Merino leather and a bunch of interior differences. The M340i basically has the same interior as any other M Sport car.

Who cares if it's a real M car or not? I don't think it is, but that doesn't make it any less of a car. It's a great car. In fact, I'd prefer the M340i if I could get it in a manual. Hands down. But I wouldn't consider it an M car. It just isn't.
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      02-02-2020, 05:36 PM   #851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
The M340 has the same exact aluminum suspension (with a ///M stamp), brakes and identical electronic 100% locking LSD as a "real" M car..

Does it need to be anointed by the M gods themselves for it to be christen a true M car?

I get that you guys are trying to distinguish between the two variants but the pie has been cut so thin nowadays that separating M and M Performance is almost a pointless exercise, other than for the bragging rights.

I'll be honest, I didn't think much of the M340i before I drove one but man, that car is a rocket, handles just as good as an M2 and is as M as it's really all one would need for regular road driving, with a little pep.

The electronic 100% locking LSD was the crown-jewel of all M cars over the standard models but now that BMW has leveled the playing field and made them common amongst all, so I really don't see the advantage of an official M car anymore.


Who cares if it's a real M car or not? I don't think it is, but that doesn't make it any less of a car. It's a great car. In fact, I'd prefer the M340i if I could get it in a manual. Hands down. But I wouldn't consider it an M car. It just isn't.
Maybe you missed the other 5 threads where I kept braying that I don't care if it's an M car or not but I'll reiterate; unlike you, I judge a machine based on its own merits, not what badge is on the back or what marketing strategy the manufacturer is pushing.

I wasn't trying to steal your [COLOR="DarkRed"]M[/COLOR] sunshine, just stating that fact that regular BMW comes with an LSD standard now, takes away the whole appeal of an officially marketed M car, IMHO.

That was my point and once again, the M340i is not an official M car but it's an excellent performing vehicle, standing on its own and sans its whatever embleming is on the trunk. The end.
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      02-02-2020, 05:40 PM   #852
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Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Maybe you missed the the other 5 threads where I kept braying that I don't care if it's an M car or not but I'll reiterate; unlike you, I judge a machine based on its own merits, not what badge is on the back or what marketing strategy the manufacturer is pushing.

I wasn't trying to steal your M sunshine, just stating that fact that regular BMW comes with an LSD standard now, takes away the whole appeal of an official M car, IMHO. That was my point. The end.

I wasn't trying to steal your M sunshine.
Why did you exclude my entire explanation about how the M340i doesn't have the unique suspension geometry and unique sheet metal that usually differentiates an M car? Because then you couldn't make it seem like I'm being swayed by marketing and only you "judge a machine based on its own merits". The jump from the 330i sport to the M340i is basically just the engine. The 330i is also available with an active LSD. The jump from the M340i to the M3 is engine, suspension, all body panels, interior. You don't think there's a much bigger jump between M340i and M3? I think the only ones who think the M340i is an M car are the ones that only care about straight line speed. Again, it's a great car but I don't consider it in the same league as the m3. Please don't edit my replies again to make it seem like I said something different.
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      02-02-2020, 05:46 PM   #853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Maybe you missed the the other 5 threads where I kept braying that I don't care if it's an M car or not but I'll reiterate; unlike you, I judge a machine based on its own merits, not what badge is on the back or what marketing strategy the manufacturer is pushing.

I wasn't trying to steal your [COLOR="DarkRed"]M[/COLOR] sunshine, just stating that fact that regular BMW comes with an LSD standard now, takes away the whole appeal of an official M car, IMHO. That was my point. The end.

I wasn't trying to steal your M sunshine.
Why did you exclude my entire explanation about how the M340i doesn't have the unique suspension geometry and unique sheet metal that usually differentiates an M car? Because then you couldn't make it seem like I'm being swayed by marketing and only you "judge a machine based on its own merits". The jump from the 330i sport to the M340i is basically just the engine. The jump from the M340i to the M3 is suspension, all body panels, interior. You don't think there's a much bigger jump between M340i and M3? I think the only ones who think the M340i is an M car are the ones that only care about straight line speed. Again, it's a great car but I don't consider it in the same league as the m3. Please don't edit my replies again to make it seem like I said something different.
Relax, I copy and pasted exactly what you said, I wasn't trying to hide your post. What's the point when anyone can go back to it.

You kept implying M cars are so great, why? It's just a machine with parts working in unison.

So tell me, what now makes an M car so superior beside the bragging rights?
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      02-02-2020, 06:59 PM   #854
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M or not, who cares? We all drive awesome cars.
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      02-02-2020, 09:40 PM   #855
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I didn't say it wasn't fast. : it's just not practical... yet.
How so? It seats 4+. Has a trunk AND a frunk. You NEVER have to fill up at a gas station.

It is the sheer definition of PRACTICALITY. Unless you regularly drive 200+ miles each way for commute, it doesn’t get much better than a Tesla 3 with autopilot.
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      02-02-2020, 10:30 PM   #856
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Relax, I copy and pasted exactly what you said, I wasn't trying to hide your post. What's the point when anyone can go back to it.

You kept implying M cars are so great, why? It's just a machine with parts working in unison.

So tell me, what now makes an M car so superior beside the bragging rights?
I never implied M cars were great. I repeatedly said that the M340i is a great car and that I'd prefer one if it also came with a manual. All I said was that the M340i is not an M car. It seems like you're implying being an M car is so great. To me, one is a track ready car, the other is a premium fast road car made to be a daily driver. It's all about preference. I think too many people buy M cars not realizing they'd be better served with an M Sport inline 6 like the M340i (you realize the M340i is essentially the new 340i M Sport with all sport options ticked off right?). They just buy the M car because they perceive it's better mainly because it costs the most. I live in an area where people buy it who barely have any idea what they're driving. And it sounds like you share that perception. To me, it's just a choice. It's like the difference between yellow and green. One may cost more, but you get the one that you need, not the one that just costs more.

I'll say it again, if the M340i came in a manual, I'd definitely be buying one. But my next car will probably be the G80 because of the transmission alone.

Last edited by upsidedownfunnel; 02-02-2020 at 10:39 PM..
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      02-03-2020, 12:58 AM   #857
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Quote:
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I didn't say it wasn't fast. : it's just not practical... yet.
How so? It seats 4+. Has a trunk AND a frunk. You NEVER have to fill up at a gas station.

It is the sheer definition of PRACTICALITY. Unless you regularly drive 200+ miles each way for commute, it doesn't get much better than a Tesla 3 with autopilot.

Those are all good but we were talking about the track weren't we?
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      02-03-2020, 01:40 AM   #858
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Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Maybe you missed the the other 5 threads where I kept braying that I don't care if it's an M car or not but I'll reiterate; unlike you, I judge a machine based on its own merits, not what badge is on the back or what marketing strategy the manufacturer is pushing.

I wasn't trying to steal your [COLOR="DarkRed"]M[/COLOR] sunshine, just stating that fact that regular BMW comes with an LSD standard now, takes away the whole appeal of an official M car, IMHO. That was my point. The end.

I wasn't trying to steal your M sunshine.
Why did you exclude my entire explanation about how the M340i doesn't have the unique suspension geometry and unique sheet metal that usually differentiates an M car? Because then you couldn't make it seem like I'm being swayed by marketing and only you "judge a machine based on its own merits". The jump from the 330i sport to the M340i is basically just the engine. The jump from the M340i to the M3 is suspension, all body panels, interior. You don't think there's a much bigger jump between M340i and M3? I think the only ones who think the M340i is an M car are the ones that only care about straight line speed. Again, it's a great car but I don't consider it in the same league as the m3. Please don't edit my replies again to make it seem like I said something different.
Relax, I copy and pasted exactly what you said, I wasn't trying to hide your post. What's the point when anyone can go back to it.

You kept implying M cars are so great, why? It's just a machine with parts working in unison.

So tell me, what now makes an M car so superior beside the bragging rights?
The M340i still weighs more because it is more luxury focused. 0-60 times on the M340i X drive is still slower than the F80 and F82 CS. These are two different cars built for two different purposes. What's makes an M car superior to me might not matter to everyone because of how I use it. The M340 is just not performance focused enough for my liking. If it was the superior car for me,I would have gotten an M340i instead of the M3 CS. It really is that simple. For others, the M340i was the superior car, but again, for different reasons and uses. They probably only care about M bragging rights and 0-60 times. They don't care about road courses and handling enough to pay the premium. In all honesty, a lot of M owners don't care about handling either. It's just about bragging rights. However, there are a fair amount of us who actually track and care about the finer details.

What's nice about adding M to the M340i is that customers can now feel they have an M car without compromising luxury and convenience. Plus it's cheaper! It can reach a broader audience who couldn't previously afford the price of admission to the "M Club". The old eMvy (get it?) is now gone. Now M340i owners can look down on the 330i owners just like the M owners used to look down on the 340i owners! Lol, I kid but sadly there's probably more truth to this than we would care to admit.


I think this video sums it up nicely at the end:



What I don't really understand is, now that the new M340i owners are in the M Club, they want to take a shit on what made the M club special in the first place: the M cars. That's just human nature I guess.
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