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      02-03-2020, 02:15 AM   #859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by praxis218 View Post

I would only cringe if they start putting M badges on a 320i.
they’ve been doing that with the 320d Msport for years, lol. On both front wings.
The handling difference wasn’t very vast in the early days, e28, e34, e30 etc.
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      02-03-2020, 03:53 AM   #860
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Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
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Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Relax, I copy and pasted exactly what you said, I wasn't trying to hide your post. What's the point when anyone can go back to it.

You kept implying M cars are so great, why? It's just a machine with parts working in unison.

So tell me, what now makes an M car so superior beside the bragging rights?
I never implied M cars were great. I repeatedly said that the M340i is a great car and that I'd prefer one if it also came with a manual. All I said was that the M340i is not an M car. It seems like you're implying being an M car is so great. To me, one is a track ready car, the other is a premium fast road car made to be a daily driver. It's all about preference. I think too many people buy M cars not realizing they'd be better served with an M Sport inline 6 like the M340i (you realize the M340i is essentially the new 340i M Sport with all sport options ticked off right?). They just buy the M car because they perceive it's better mainly because it costs the most. I live in an area where people buy it who barely have any idea what they're driving. And it sounds like you share that perception. To me, it's just a choice. It's like the difference between yellow and green. One may cost more, but you get the one that you need, not the one that just costs more.

I'll say it again, if the M340i came in a manual, I'd definitely be buying one. But my next car will probably be the G80 because of the transmission alone.
Fair enough.

Look, I previously loved the concept of an M car not because of the name but what equipment that was attached to it, which gave it a discernible advantage over standard models, you knew the extra money was well spent, now the difference is so minimal, I feel like you're just paying for the name.

Back in 2008, when I got into BMW from Minis, they didn't have this many various models, the entry-level price for an M car with NA V8, aluminum components, Adaptive Suspension, electronic LSD, ITB, M iDrive Control, ect. You would have to spend a minimum of $75,000 for the price of admission to a E92 M3.

The fact that BMW throws in most of the above for standard M Performance line takes away the pizazz and uniqueness that they once commanded, IMHO. It's like walking into a store and seeing Coke and Pepsi, at the end of the day, most really can't tell the difference, so they go with which one is cheaper or sale because they pretty much all the same.

I predict to further separate the official M models from the M Performance variants, for the next generation, would be the manual option; everything else would pretty much be equivalent, as BMW continue to blur the lines between M Cars and M Performance line, in the name of profits, from everyone that wants an equivalently equipped vehicle.

The fact is that the M model line-up in general have now reach a plateau in performance and handling, to the point there is no way to go beside electric, so enjoy this last generation of real M cars with combustion engines before they disappear and this dispute is moot.
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      02-04-2020, 12:42 PM   #861
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Yeah, no. I’ve driven a G M340i and it is nowhere near my M3. The overall stiffness and responsiveness. The body roll. The power band. Two drastically different cars. Above all, the feeling is different. Steering is disconnected in the 40i and you can’t hear much outside the cabin. Which a lot of people like! And I understand that! But to say the M340i is anywhere near an M3 CS, Competition, or even a base, is insane.
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      02-04-2020, 07:14 PM   #862
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Man I miss the days when ANY BMW you can get your hands on is a capable track weapon...

Now? The BEST BMW has to offer could BARELY keep up with run of the mill Toyotas
Nah, it's been like this before. I DD'd a 325e way back in the day. It was an economical pig of a BMW, by design.
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      02-04-2020, 08:21 PM   #863
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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post

Now? The BEST BMW has to offer could BARELY keep up with run of the mill Toyotas,
Um what? You've totally lost me, I am FAR from what I could consider "good" and I placed 42 out of 123 at the last autocross I attended. Among those who had slower times where 911 (including a Turbo), Lamborghini, GTRs, Boxsters, Mustangs, Corvettes, Challengers. I honestly think you are jaded for a reason that you probably think is a good one, but your opinion doesn't reflect reality is much as you think.

At Streets of Willow just last month I was getting point-by's from Mustangs, Corvettes and EVO's in the intermediate group. My M3 CS is stock with PS4S's.

BTW my first car was an E21 320i and while it was fun to drive, it was slow.
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      02-04-2020, 08:36 PM   #864
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Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
now the difference is so minimal, I feel like you're just paying for the name.
Weight, cooling, brakes, CG, torque... these are not "minimal" when it comes to performance. And not just straight line performance. The M340i weighs nearly 4000 lbs. The G80 will most probably weigh LESS than the current F80 which is in the 3600 lb range and will have more power and torque than the M340i and current M3/4 CS. The G80, just like the F80 compared to the F30, will have better cooling, lower CG thanks to a CF roof (and CF Hood in the CS and GTS models), and aluminum sheetmetal. The suspension will be different and very importantly, will have more radiators and airflow for additional cooling. The M340i is more street oriented, and if they don't track or don't want to spend the extra money, the M340i is suited for them. If they track, the G80 is more suited for competitive tracking out of the box without extensive modifications with the warranty completely intact. From attending multiple track days and M school events in the M3, M4, M2 and M5, I can tell you that they are more than capable of the brutal abuse of multiple track days (except the M5, which hates heat).

There is a price difference, and you GET something for paying more contrary to what people want to believe.
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      02-04-2020, 08:42 PM   #865
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Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
I judge a machine based on its own merits, not what badge is on the back or what marketing strategy the manufacturer is pushing.
Judging by its weight, it's not a car I would consider. M badge or not.
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      02-04-2020, 08:53 PM   #866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Um what? You've totally lost me, I am FAR from what I could consider "good" and I placed 42 out of 123 at the last autocross I attended. Among those who had slower times where 911 (including a Turbo), Lamborghini, GTRs, Boxsters, Mustangs, Corvettes, Challengers. I honestly think you are jaded for a reason that you probably think is a good one, but your opinion doesn't reflect reality is much as you think.

At Streets of Willow just last month I was getting point-by's from Mustangs, Corvettes and EVO's in the intermediate group. My M3 CS is stock with PS4S's.

BTW my first car was an E21 320i and while it was fun to drive, it was slow.
Lol. 42 out of 123 isn’t something to write home about, IMO. That’s like saying “hey mom I finish slightly above AVERAGE! In my high HP, top of the line BMW!”

There’s a lot to be said about how a faster driver in a faster car will net faster results. Just because you’re getting point-bus from inferior drivers in faster cars, doesn’t make your M3 CS a better car.

In fact, I can cite anecdotal evidence all day long about how I was passing significantly faster and better cars on track in my MZ4 Coupe, doesn’t change the fact that first session out in a Corvette C7 Grand Sport I was doing laps 7 seconds per lap faster. And no matter how much I LOVE the MZ4 Coupe, it cant compete with 200 more ft-lbs on a 13 year newer chassis with magic double wishbone suspension and 50mm wider semi street legal “slicks.”

It ALSO doesn’t change the fact that in 2006-2008 (when my MZ4 Coupe was born) the M3 of the day could hang with the Corvettes of its day and then some...But nothing in the BMW lineup today can go toe to toe with today’s Corvette. Or Camaro ZL1. Or Crapstang GTxxx.

And I don’t even have to mention those prancing ponies from Stuttgart.
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      02-04-2020, 08:58 PM   #867
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Those are all good but we were talking about the track weren't we?
So was I. A Model 3 Performance with just suspension mods won Global Time Attack at Buttonwillow. Up against modified WRX STis putting up 500+ hp.

The Model 3 will run circles around most cars on track. That instantaneous torque delivered to 4 wheels on a 4,000ish lbs frame with super low center of gravity makes it an excellent handling car out of the box.
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      02-04-2020, 09:12 PM   #868
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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Lol. 42 out of 123 isn’t something to write home about, IMO. That’s like saying “hey mom I finish slightly above AVERAGE! In my high HP, top of the line BMW!”
Maybe you missed this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
I am FAR from what I could consider "good"
Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
There’s a lot to be said about how a faster driver in a faster car will net faster results. Just because you’re getting point-bus from inferior drivers in faster cars, doesn’t make your M3 CS a better car.
That goes without saying, but this is the intermediate group with people with a decent amount of track experience on the same day with the same conditions. Sure, some of them weren't as good as me but as you pointed out, I'm "slightly above AVERAGE" at best. Chances are, the M3 CS actually IS a decent car that can keep up with other "better" cars even in the hands of someone as inept as me. The point is that the fact that capabilities of the M3 CS allowed me to even beat anyone speaks to the qualities of the car: fast, not too heavy, powerful, predictable. These are the things that I would not get in a "run of the mill Toyota". I understand that you were trying to make a point by exaggerating and being dramatic, but you are wrong in this case. Tell me I can beat my PB at Big Willow in a Camry and I'll get rid of my M3 CS. Frankly, this discussion is ridiculous because now you have resorted to insults. You sound like you've been around the block–I expected a much more thoughtful response.
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      02-05-2020, 12:21 AM   #869
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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Those are all good but we were talking about the track weren't we?
So was I. A Model 3 Performance with just suspension mods won Global Time Attack at Buttonwillow. Up against modified WRX STis putting up 500+ hp.

The Model 3 will run circles around most cars on track. That instantaneous torque delivered to 4 wheels on a 4,000ish lbs frame with super low center of gravity makes it an excellent handling car out of the box.
The examples you gave in the post I was replying to spoke of daily conveniences, not track. Many tacks don't have chargers and the Tesla 3 gets heat loss in only a few laps as I have already stated. My
Buddy couldn't attend a track day I organized because the nearest charger was too far for his Tesla S. We all know that practice makes perfect and we want to take advantage of our track days to get in as many runs as possible. This is more difficult in an electric car. I see more Tesla 3's at autocrosses for this reason.

Believe me when I say I am an advocate for EV's as I've been daily driving one for 3 years. I hope one day the EV becomes just as practical on a circuit as an ICE, however today is not that day yet.
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      02-13-2020, 09:20 AM   #870
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Lol. 42 out of 123 isn’t something to write home about, IMO. That’s like saying “hey mom I finish slightly above AVERAGE! In my high HP, top of the line BMW!”

There’s a lot to be said about how a faster driver in a faster car will net faster results. Just because you’re getting point-bus from inferior drivers in faster cars, doesn’t make your M3 CS a better car.

In fact, I can cite anecdotal evidence all day long about how I was passing significantly faster and better cars on track in my MZ4 Coupe, doesn’t change the fact that first session out in a Corvette C7 Grand Sport I was doing laps 7 seconds per lap faster. And no matter how much I LOVE the MZ4 Coupe, it cant compete with 200 more ft-lbs on a 13 year newer chassis with magic double wishbone suspension and 50mm wider semi street legal “slicks.”

It ALSO doesn’t change the fact that in 2006-2008 (when my MZ4 Coupe was born) the M3 of the day could hang with the Corvettes of its day and then some...But nothing in the BMW lineup today can go toe to toe with today’s Corvette. Or Camaro ZL1. Or Crapstang GTxxx.

And I don’t even have to mention those prancing ponies from Stuttgart.
Somewhat disagree, I think you have selective memory.

The regular M3/4 has a very similar performance envelope to a base C7 Corvette. Look up the best track times in the Track sub forum (there are a few people who have owned or tracked both and gotten similar times).

I hang with GT350 and Camaro SS 1LE at VIR. Could better drivers perhaps go a second or two faster in the Mustang or Camaro? Who knows. The differences don’t seem night and day.

In 2008 no BMW could hang with a Z06 Corvette.
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      02-13-2020, 09:28 AM   #871
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On another note, just because a manufacturer puts a badge on it, it still doesn't mean much. lol. Flame suit on....
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      02-20-2020, 03:05 AM   #872
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Weight, cooling, brakes, CG, torque... these are not "minimal" when it comes to performance. And not just straight line performance. The M340i weighs nearly 4000 lbs. The G80 will most probably weigh LESS than the current F80 which is in the 3600 lb range and will have more power and torque than the M340i and current M3/4 CS. The G80, just like the F80 compared to the F30, will have better cooling, lower CG thanks to a CF roof (and CF Hood in the CS and GTS models), and aluminum sheetmetal. The suspension will be different and very importantly, will have more radiators and airflow for additional cooling. The M340i is more street oriented, and if they don't track or don't want to spend the extra money, the M340i is suited for them. If they track, the G80 is more suited for competitive tracking out of the box without extensive modifications with the warranty completely intact. From attending multiple track days and M school events in the M3, M4, M2 and M5, I can tell you that they are more than capable of the brutal abuse of multiple track days (except the M5, which hates heat).

There is a price difference, and you GET something for paying more contrary to what people want to believe.
G80 weighing less than the current gen? HIGHLY doubtful.
Ill believe it when I see both cars on the scales.
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      02-20-2020, 03:20 AM   #873
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G80 weighing less than the current gen? HIGHLY doubtful.
Ill believe it when I see both cars on the scales.
The F80 weighed less than the E90, and that is the rumor...

Point being, the F8X M3/4 weighed less than its top non-M counterpart, the 340i. There is no reason to believe that trend won't continue with the G8X simply due to the fact that it will have aluminum sheetmetal and carbon fiber roof.
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      02-20-2020, 03:44 AM   #874
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The F80 weighed less than the E90, and that is the rumor...

Point being, the F8X M3/4 weighed less than its top non-M counterpart, the 340i. There is no reason to believe that trend won't continue with the G8X simply due to the fact that it will have aluminum sheetmetal and carbon fiber roof.
Its true, that is the trend. But, now you have XDrive in play, and thats a couple hundred pounds easy, plus the ZF and all the standard safety equipment. Id be happy if it stays even.

Most probably the "PURE" version with RWD and Manuel will be the lightest.
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      02-20-2020, 03:46 AM   #875
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Originally Posted by A6bullet View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
The F80 weighed less than the E90, and that is the rumor...

Point being, the F8X M3/4 weighed less than its top non-M counterpart, the 340i. There is no reason to believe that trend won't continue with the G8X simply due to the fact that it will have aluminum sheetmetal and carbon fiber roof.
Its true, that is the trend. But, now you have XDrive in play, and thats a couple hundred pounds easy, plus the ZF and all the standard safety equipment. Id be happy if it stays even.

Most probably the "PURE" version with RWD and Manuel will be the lightest.
That's a good point, but as far as being lighter than the non-M the M340i also has XDrive and a ZF so they cancel each other out.
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      02-20-2020, 03:57 PM   #876
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G80 weighing less than the current gen? HIGHLY doubtful.
Ill believe it when I see both cars on the scales.
It should especially with the newer processes. The G12 & was lighter than the F01 and its larger.
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      02-20-2020, 05:29 PM   #877
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To be honest, except for the shitty ride, my E46 M3 wasn't really an M car
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      02-20-2020, 05:31 PM   #878
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On another note, just because a manufacturer puts a badge on it, it still doesn't mean much. lol. Flame suit on....
The numbers don't even mean anything anymore
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      02-20-2020, 05:32 PM   #879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elitex View Post
On another note, just because a manufacturer puts a badge on it, it still doesn't mean much. lol. Flame suit on....
The numbers don't even mean anything anymore
Yes but in those days they were trying to advertise 6.3L when we all know it wasn't true.
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      02-21-2020, 03:21 AM   #880
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To be honest, except for the shitty ride, my E46 M3 wasn't really an M car
Damn that's a bold statement. What makes you say that?
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