Brake Judder Problem

[Technic]

I see that you are local... are you driving a lot in the rain? Rotors may be warped if very hot and then you hit a deep puddle of water. But then, we are talking that you will be going thru a second set of warped rotors, which obviously it is not normal.

The only time that I have felt any judder in the brakes in 31 years of driving and almost 20 cars was in fact with a Brembo BBK in my old E92 M3. The cause was poor bed-in procedure so the front rotors had pad material embedded in them. Brembo sent me a set of racing pads to scrape that material off the rotor, at no cost (I have to return the pads, though).

The whole car was covered in brake dust when finished, never seen something like that. But the pad material was gone with the judder.

Originally Posted by Alpine300zhp

I am with you. Already bedded the brakes and judder remains. The first set were warped and confirmed by runout. I usually use the Zeckenhausen method. I ll look for Brembo's method and see if it is different.

I took a look at the Brembo method. It is very different from what I am used to doing. It sounds like a bunch of city driving and brake applications at city speeds need to be done before taking the car on the freeway. I tend to do 90% freeway driving. This may be where I am having a problem although my departed E92 M3 and F32 435 were both driven the same way without any issues.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Jbook

I'm getting this same problem pretty badly after a track day... Did the brake in properly, but the car is only at 1600 miles. I never used my ebrake after sessions and I did cool down laps around the parking lot before stopping the car. Going to take it to the dealer, but I suspect the rotors are warped.

As others have pointed out, the rotors are most likely not warped. What you are experiencing is most probably pad deposit. Street pads are not adequate for track use. They will eventually overheat and smear uneven deposits on the discs and cause brake shudder. Usually driving them for a few weeks (read 2~5 weeks) on the street will wear off the uneven deposits.

[Alpine300zhp]

Originally Posted by Technic

I see that you are local... are you driving a lot in the rain? Rotors may be warped if very hot and then you hit a deep puddle of water. But then, we are talking that you will be going thru a second set of warped rotors, which obviously it is not normal.

The only time that I have felt any judder in the brakes in 31 years of driving and almost 20 cars was in fact with a Brembo BBK in my old E92 M3. The cause was poor bed-in procedure so the front rotors had pad material embedded in them. Brembo sent me a set of racing pads to scrape that material off the rotor, at no cost (I have to return the pads, though).

The whole car was covered in brake dust when finished, never seen something like that. But the pad material was gone with the judder.

You might be right on the rain. You know how much rain we have had this summer. And both times the judder appeared was after a highway run in the rain. The high heat outside this summer combined with the heat this motor puts out does not help.

[Technic]

Originally Posted by Alpine300zhp

You might be right on the rain. You know how much rain we have had this summer. And both times the judder appeared was after a highway run in the rain. The high heat outside this summer combined with the heat this motor puts out does not help.

Unless you are hitting the exact same puddle at the same exact rotor temperature twice in two weeks then there is something else not working right in your brakes.

What about the rear rotors?

[Jbook]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

As others have pointed out, the rotors are most likely not warped. What you are experiencing is most probably pad deposit. Street pads are not adequate for track use. They will eventually overheat and smear uneven deposits on the discs and cause brake shudder. Usually driving them for a few weeks (read 2~5 weeks) on the street will wear off the uneven deposits.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. The sounds I'm hearing are too consistent to be the rotors.

[Alpine300zhp]

Originally Posted by Technic

Unless you are hitting the exact same puddle at the same exact rotor temperature twice in two weeks then there is something else not working right in your brakes.

What about the rear rotors?

Rears are fine. I'm not sure what is going on either.

[Alpine300zhp]

Just an update to those who are interested. It ended up being warped front rotors, again. New pads and rotors and she is driving perfectly. I hope this set lasts.

[///M///]

Originally Posted by Alpine300zhp

Just an update to those who are interested. It ended up being warped front rotors, again. New pads and rotors and she is driving perfectly. I hope this set lasts.

When you say judder do you mean vibrations? I have an interesting issue by no sure if I can call it a judder. This has been level ant from day 1 of buying the car and I notice it more driving in the mountains because a lot of braking is involved coming to corners and down slopes. So here is the issue....

If I am on the brakes coming to a corner from say 50 mph, when the speed drops to around 25-30 mph I hear this groan that gets louder as I am coming to a stop. It is a groan but there is no judder involved but more like a resonant vibration that occurs because of the loud groan. Hope that makes sense. Just got my car back from ED so will be showing it to the dealer.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Alpine300zhp

Just an update to those who are interested. It ended up being warped front rotors, again. New pads and rotors and she is driving perfectly. I hope this set lasts.

Again, I seriously doubt you had warped rotors. Pad deposit is often mis-diagnosed as warped rotors even by dealers, as it display the same symptoms.

[Alpine300zhp]

Originally Posted by dsm918

When you say judder do you mean vibrations? I have an interesting issue by no sure if I can call it a judder. This has been level ant from day 1 of buying the car and I notice it more driving in the mountains because a lot of braking is involved coming to corners and down slopes. So here is the issue....

If I am on the brakes coming to a corner from say 50 mph, when the speed drops to around 25-30 mph I hear this groan that gets louder as I am coming to a stop. It is a groan but there is no judder involved but more like a resonant vibration that occurs because of the loud groan. Hope that makes sense. Just got my car back from ED so will be showing it to the dealer.

I did get a groan at times, but it was inconsistent. The groan was independent of the judder and would occur off and on while the judder, over time, became consistent every time the brakes were applied at speeds over 40 mph. My new set has 2k miles and is flawless.

[Alpine300zhp]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Again, I seriously doubt you had warped rotors. Pad deposit is often mis-diagnosed as warped rotors even by dealers, as it display the same symptoms.

Believe me I understand why you suspect pad deposits. However, the shop tech did a runout test and that confirmed warped rotors. Additionally, I am quite familiar with pad deposits and I bedded the brakes before I took it in. Judder did not go away until they replaced the rotors.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Alpine300zhp

Believe me I understand why you suspect pad deposits. However, the shop tech did a runout test and that confirmed warped rotors. Additionally, I am quite familiar with pad deposits and I bedded the brakes before I took it in. Judder did not go away until they replaced the rotors.

Un-even pad deposit will also show runout being off. That is a big reason most shop misdiagnose it as warped rotors. Look at the size of those rotors. It takes some serious stress to warp these.

Uneven pad deposit, if bad enough, can evolve in a non-recuperable situation. If the brakes continue to be highly solicited with un-even deposits, the high spots will create hot spots on the discs. The increased heat can transform the rotor metallurgic properties and make them harder in that location, sort of a local heat treat. Once this happens, the rotors will wear less in those locations which only exacerbates the problem. That is why proper brake management is so important to avoid severe uneven pad deposit.

[Fast4d]

I guess mine is more of a 'groan'

I know it is deposit related as I wash my wheels often and the surface rust deposits build up.

there is absolutely no pulsing from the pedal or vibe in the steering

[TRZ06]

I seem to be getting a groan sound as well with medium to hard brake pressure applied in the 50 to 60MPH range, and I think a slight vibration as well, although not thru the steering wheel or pedal.

Only have 900 miles on it. Will bring it up on my 1200 mile service this Wed.

[andrej--h]

Dear all

Does any if you solved this issue on long term view? Because my F83 with 30t km has now the same drone vibration issue above 60mph. Specially on the Autobahn it appears every time brakes become warmer. The steering is not "shaking" that's why I suspect should be not a issue of warped rotors. Was a the dealer, BMW has opened a PUMA ticket. Probably they will replace rotor+pad I am just afraid. This is not the longterm solution and the drone will appear again out of warranty.

[Alpine300zhp]

Originally Posted by andrej--h

Dear all

Does any if you solved this issue on long term view? Because my F83 with 30t km has now the same drone vibration issue above 60mph. Specially on the Autobahn it appears every time brakes become warmer. The steering is not "shaking" that's why I suspect should be not a issue of warped rotors. Was a the dealer, BMW has opened a PUMA ticket. Probably they will replace rotor+pad I am just afraid. This is not the longterm solution and the drone will appear again out of warranty.

My problem went away permanently once all four pads and rotors were replaced. 40k miles later the problem has not returned.

[Xtabi]

Originally Posted by Alpine300zhp

My problem went away permanently once all four pads and rotors were replaced. 40k miles later the problem has not returned.

Was this done under warranty?

[Alpine300zhp]

Originally Posted by Xtabi

Was this done under warranty?

Yes, about 2 years ago. My M4 comes off lease next year.

[Xtabi]

Originally Posted by Alpine300zhp

Yes, about 2 years ago. My M4 comes off lease next year.

Thanks

[mercedesc63]

I had a set of 4 Piston Brembo BBK do this on my E46 M3. The solutions where to use an abrasive pad such as the hawk blue to scrub the surface clean or rebleed the brakes.

Try a balancing also I recommend discount tire as they have the state of the art Hunter Road Force Elite which is my go to.

[hdubf80]

I think this is due to the break compound themselves. BMW changed them from the E9X platform and these are shit. I started a thread about this a while ago, It has gotten better since but occasionally it still shows up.

[rich8566]

Originally Posted by hdubf80

I think this is due to the break compound themselves. BMW changed them from the E9X platform and these are shit. I started a thread about this a while ago, It has gotten better since but occasionally it still shows up.

You are spot on. These OEM M2 pads are junk. I never had this type of problem with the pads and rotors on my 235i. It is really embarrassing that my M2 brakes cannot take a few laps at the track without melting the OEM pads and leaving uneven deposits on the rotors which make them feel warped.