Turbo lag in M3 vs M5

[JoeFromPA]

It is conjecture at this point to say the S55 uses the same system as the M5 and 1M.

BMW has introduced it as a unique technology in their statements to date. Maybe they will backtrack, maybe not.

[solstice]

More important than the lag experieced when the turbos build boost from low rpm until peak boost rpm is the lag experienced off - on throttle. The low rpm lag is mainly handled by the use of small turbos that spools quickly.

It's the off-on throttle lag where the "anti-lag" system comes in play. However BMW has inidicated that this system is only active in "Sprorts +" and only under "track like circumstances". That's not really much help in day to day commuting.

The M5 makes a lot more power off boost which will play in it's relative favour but the S55 might have turbos which are quicker to spool. There are many factors we don't know which are hard to predict . we just need to wait and see.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by solstice

More important than the lag experieced when the turbos build boost from low rpm until peak boost rpm is the lag experienced off - on throttle. The low rpm lag is mainly handled by the use of small turbos that spools quickly.

It's the off-on throttle lag where the "anti-lag" system comes in play. However BMW has inidicated that this system is only active in "Sprorts +" and only under "track like circumstances". That's not really much help in day to day commuting.

The M5 makes a lot more power off boost which will play in it's relative favour but the S55 might have turbos which are quicker to spool. There are many factors we don't know which are hard to predict . we just need to wait and see.

All good points.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Such anti-lag measures - which are only available in more aggressive ECU modes, and which are really there to keep the turbos spooled rather than to get them spooled quickly - aside, is there any technology we are aware of in the S55 design that could hope to give us a lag-free experience from idle? It seems unlikely at this point, no?

IIRC, the N54 in the 1M does not have Valvtronic and still uses a throttle body. So there are more technology possibilities with the S55 comapred to the N54.

When I test drove my buddies 1M at the track, I didn't find that the throttle response was particularly sharp and it was more difficult to steer with the throttle compared the my M3. I sure hope that the S55 is better than the N54 in the 1M in that respect.

How the S55 will differ from the S63 as far as anti-lag technology is pure speculation since BMW has been very moot on the topic. I am really eager to find out .

EDIT: Deleted my reference, just saw that Boss already posted it...

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by solstice

More important than the lag experieced when the turbos build boost from low rpm until peak boost rpm is the lag experienced off - on throttle. The low rpm lag is mainly handled by the use of small turbos that spools quickly.

It's the off-on throttle lag where the "anti-lag" system comes in play. However BMW has inidicated that this system is only active in "Sprorts +" and only under "track like circumstances". That's not really much help in day to day commuting.

The M5 makes a lot more power off boost which will play in it's relative favour but the S55 might have turbos which are quicker to spool. There are many factors we don't know which are hard to predict . we just need to wait and see.

Good points and spot on as regards the on-off throttle situations. How agile and responsive will it be in those situations. And the S63 is a 4,4l engine, making more power off boost than a 3l so the S55 will need even less lag to feel as agile... However the S55 could in theory, with it's high CR, be just as agile/responsive as a NA 3l with similar CR...

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by solstice

It's the off-on throttle lag where the "anti-lag" system comes in play. However BMW has inidicated that this system is only active in "Sprorts +" and only under "track like circumstances". That's not really much help in day to day commuting.

Well, I'm not too worried about my "lag free commute".

I mean, if that damn Volvo gets in front of me one more time because of the less than half a second lag it takes to get full boost, well, I'm just gonna wait less than a half second more and politely pass them as I drink my double soy latte and wave at them as I drive by.

The nerve.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by solstice

More important than the lag experieced when the turbos build boost from low rpm until peak boost rpm is the lag experienced off - on throttle. The low rpm lag is mainly handled by the use of small turbos that spools quickly.

It's the off-on throttle lag where the "anti-lag" system comes in play. However BMW has inidicated that this system is only active in "Sprorts +" and only under "track like circumstances". That's not really much help in day to day commuting.

The M5 makes a lot more power off boost which will play in it's relative favour but the S55 might have turbos which are quicker to spool. There are many factors we don't know which are hard to predict . we just need to wait and see.

You will likely not need 430hp in day to day commuting anyway .

For me the concern about lag is not so much about going full throttle after steady cruising. The lag we see from modern turbo engines is so minimal, it won't really make a difference (as we can witness in the many F10 vs E60 M5 videos). My concern with lag is more related throttle steering, when you play with the throttle to transfer weight front to rear to steer the car. When there is lag, this becomes quite complex to achieve and manage.

I also suspect that BMW has selcted gear ratios (especially 1st gear) exactly for that. So the engine is more responsive off boost when puttering around (also applicable to the M5).

[solstice]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You will likely not need 430hp in day to day commuting anyway.

It's not always the lack of power but the inconsistent power that is the issue. I.e lack of predictable power. It's something you adapt to for sure but it's better if you don't have to in a large extent. It's just nice in everyday traffic to have a linear power delivery as you zip in and out in traffic even if you don't floor it constantly.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by solstice

It's not always the lack of power but the inconsistent power that is the issue. I.e lack of predictable power. It's something you adapt to for sure but it's better if you don't have to in a large extent. It's just nice in everyday traffic to have a linear power delivery as you zip in and out in traffic even if you don't floor it constantly.

Agreed. A 335i is not that unpredictable from that perspective though, and I doubt that the S55 will be any worse.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by solstice

It's not always the lack of power but the inconsistent power that is the issue. I.e lack of predictable power. It's something you adapt to for sure but it's better if you don't have to in a large extent. It's just nice in everyday traffic to have a linear power delivery as you zip in and out in traffic even if you don't floor it constantly.

Really? You need that exact precision on your commute? Are you drafting the guy ahead of you with only an inch to spare?

If you honestly think that a modern turbo engine is so unpredictable for everyday driving, well, please don't drive in the same state as me.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Agreed. A 335i is not that unpredictable from that perspective though, and I doubt that the S55 will be any worse.

Indeed it isn't. It makes me wonder where some of these comments originate from.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

IIRC, the N54 in the 1M does not have Valvtronic and still uses a throttle body. So there are more technology possibilities with the S55 comapred to the N54.

Good point. I wonder how the S63tu compares to its S63 predecessor as far as lag goes. The two are very similar with Valvetronic being one of the key differentiators.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Indeed it isn't. It makes me wonder where some of these comments originate from.

The ethos of hyperbole

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Really? You need that exact precision on your commute? Are you drafting the guy ahead of you with only an inch to spare?

If you honestly think that a modern turbo engine is so unpredictable for everyday driving, well, please don't drive in the same state as me.

Need??? If you are shopping for what you need you are in the wrong place
Do you need 430hp to commute? Do you need leather interior? Do you need 19' wheels to commute? Do you need HK radio to commute? Do you need M tuned sports suspension? The answer is no very,very far from it, but I want it, just as I want as predictable power as possible. And yes, turbo lag can absolutely be felt in my daily commute. I owned a 2008 535i for 4 years and it was a great car but make no mistake it would have been better with less lag and what was a good engine for that car would not have received the same praise for me in an M3.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by solstice

Need???

Well, you obviously "need" to make hyperbolic statements

I feel turbo lag in my daily commute too. Doesn't mean the car is imprecise. With statements like yours, it's a wonder we don't find turbocharged cars in the ditch on a daily basis.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

It is conjecture at this point to say the S55 uses the same system as the M5 and 1M.

BMW has introduced it as a unique technology in their statements to date. Maybe they will backtrack, maybe not.

Yes but the E92 M3 achieved great weight savings, and
The M4 weighs 1500 kg, and
The M4 uses i3 like composites technology, and
50-50 weight balance is ideal for a performance oriented car, and

In short don't trust most marketing folks and very often don't trust BMW marketing folks. It's my best guess this will be a very slightly refined version (at best) of the M5 and 1M capability.

[bm323]

This thread is drifting into the mountain (cf molehill ) The S63tu (and my bets on the S55) is far from being inconsistent and unpredictable. The turbo lag is very seldom noticeable for forummers driving it sportily and having set the correct button (bet swamp doesn't know which )

If the S63tu were inconsistent and unpredictable, this ton of a car would not have set the times it has on the short tracks http://fastestlaps.com/cars/bmw_m5_f10.html

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by tdizzle

I'd guess it would be comparable to the m5 if not better where response is concerned. I also didn't see noticeable lag in the m5.

Are ppl mistaking turbo lag for throttle response?

Does the car go when you tell it to go?

[solstice]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

Are ppl mistaking turbo lag for throttle response?

Does the car go when you tell it to go?

I really don't think so, we are just a bit reckless with the wording. I would be surprised if anyone here can't recognize turbo lag.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by Boss330

RealStig:

You are posing a very interesting question and one that it amazingly seems we haven't done any good info on here.

...

This is great.

But btw, members of 1addicts have already confirmed laggy throttle response as i did my research and asked about this when i really wanted the car. So response can be better'd but will never be instant. I hope it is in the m3. The n20 seems to have no lag in throttle response due to how small it is.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

I'll say it to Chris Harris or anyone else. If you're not already on it, you'll get lag in an M5. I've driven a 1/2 dozen, both 2013 and 2014. If you're tooling along at low revs, you can definitely feel the turbos spool and the boost build.

The car does have good power off boost. I mean, it is a 4.4 liter V8 after all. But to say there's no lag is a fallacy.

Agree. These reviews all say the lag is minimal but that is subjective.

There is an episode of Fifth Gear where tiff needell and Sabine Schmitz drive an m6 and put it to tests against the 991. They didnt like the throttle response in the m6 and said you had to throttle earlier than normal to compensate - which even though is "minimal" is still long enough to be an annoyance.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by bm323

This thread is drifting into the mountain (cf molehill ) The S63tu (and my bets on the S55) is far from being inconsistent and unpredictable. The turbo lag is very seldom noticeable for forummers driving it sportily and having set the correct button (bet swamp doesn't know which )

If the S63tu were inconsistent and unpredictable, this ton of a car would not have set the times it has on the short tracks http://fastestlaps.com/cars/bmw_m5_f10.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://fastestlaps.c...5_f10.html</a>

It sets times because the engine is a beast. Nothing to do with this conversation. Lol
Great. Another m5 owner posting another persons lap times.