European Auto Source (EAS)
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Technical Topics > Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons / Tuning

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-20-2019, 01:31 PM   #1
MPOOR
First Lieutenant
MPOOR's Avatar
United_States
96
Rep
374
Posts

Drives: F80 M3 / WHITE
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: S.F bay area

iTrader: (0)

Need some members advice on Methanol injection nozzle location.

hi , guys

I finally decided to "GO" for the methanol injection kit.

I noticed the general notion is to install it on a set of aftermarket charge

pipes that comes with methanol injection nozzle bungs.

But I noticed that it is more effective to install a methanol nozzle on the cold

side of the boost pipe. BMW seems to follow the same logic on their M4 GTS

water injection system although it is directly into the intake manifold, it is on

the cold side. Whereas the majority of products locate it on the hot side

charge pipe.

I am already running a set of ESS charge pipe and don't want to re invest.

BMS seems selling just the cold side j pipe but I am not sure if it has pre-

installed nozzle bung for methanol kit. Also, it seems I need a dual nozzle set

up but can it all mount on one j pipe?

Any idea?
Attached Images
   
__________________
What shall i buy for my next track toy

Last edited by MPOOR; 08-20-2019 at 01:38 PM..
Appreciate 0
      08-21-2019, 07:30 PM   #2
MPOOR
First Lieutenant
MPOOR's Avatar
United_States
96
Rep
374
Posts

Drives: F80 M3 / WHITE
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: S.F bay area

iTrader: (0)

Anyone??????????????
__________________
What shall i buy for my next track toy
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2019, 10:33 AM   #3
blockdoc
Lieutenant
United_States
373
Rep
500
Posts

Drives: 2015 M4
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nysid2007 View Post
Anyone??????????????
I think you are overthinking this. You already have good charge pipes with Meth bungs in them. By FAR, the easiest an effective way to do this is to simply pipe your meth into each bung and be done with it.

My story,
As my build has increased in power via additions and ongoing work with F80Paul, I decided to add an E30/40 tune on top of the current methanol injection (100 percent meth via the charge pipes). Since I have crappy CA watered down gas, Paul told me we were basically getting all the power available from the base 91 octane source, and that I had to add another fuel source if I was looking for more power. While I had the intake manifold off (upgrading fuel lines and adding an inline ethanol sensor), I bought a VRSF J pipe with a bung and planned on adding a third nozzle there for the same reasons you describe.

While planning the nozzle sizes, I ended up driving down to ProMeth and speaking with their head technician. He basically talked me out of the "cold side" injection due to uneven distribution of meth to the cylinders. They have done a fair bit of testing and found unpredictable flow due to manifold design (more meth in the middle cylinders). The most efficient way to inject cold side is to do Port Injection, but that is a much more involved process and probably unnecessary unless you are looking for HUGE power.

What I DID do, was go up in nozzle size on the charge pipes (actually running dual CM 14s) based on recommendations from ProMeth and then acccounted for during the tuning process

In summary,
I'd stick with the charge pipes. Other than PI, that's what the vast majority of your S55 brethren have done with good results.

YMMV
Appreciate 8
ntg442887.50
ssgm1x417.50
sly1types426.50
davyent10.50
Fred E13.50
      08-23-2019, 09:52 PM   #4
MPOOR
First Lieutenant
MPOOR's Avatar
United_States
96
Rep
374
Posts

Drives: F80 M3 / WHITE
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: S.F bay area

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by blockdoc View Post
He basically talked me out of the "cold side" injection
due to uneven distribution of meth to the cylinders.
I'd stick with the charge pipes.

YMMV
hey blockdoc ~!! Thank you for your input ~~~ Looks like I need a new set of

charge pipes~ !
__________________
What shall i buy for my next track toy
Appreciate 0
      08-24-2019, 02:45 PM   #5
blockdoc
Lieutenant
United_States
373
Rep
500
Posts

Drives: 2015 M4
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nysid2007 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by blockdoc View Post
He basically talked me out of the "cold side" injection
due to uneven distribution of meth to the cylinders.
I'd stick with the charge pipes.

YMMV
hey blockdoc ~!! Thank you for your input ~~~ Looks like I need a new set of

charge pipes~ !
You can easily tap a bung into each. Super simpe
Appreciate 0
      08-25-2019, 08:51 AM   #6
bobbyh907
Private
34
Rep
66
Posts

Drives: 2015 M3 Alpine White
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Alaska

iTrader: (0)

This is what I did on my N55. Used an aquamist HFS-4 and their port injection kit. Worked perfectly and held up under 25 psi from a Pure stage 2 for 20k miles.

Name:  IMG_20171129_142656.jpg
Views: 5362
Size:  370.6 KB
Name:  IMG_20171225_150943.jpg
Views: 4691
Size:  189.7 KB
Name:  IMG_20171225_153436.jpg
Views: 4780
Size:  223.3 KB
Appreciate 2
blockdoc373.00
      08-25-2019, 09:11 AM   #7
johnnyredgtr
Second Lieutenant
johnnyredgtr's Avatar
121
Rep
250
Posts

Drives: 2022 BMW X6MC
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Puerto Rico

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nysid2007 View Post
hi , guys

I finally decided to "GO" for the methanol injection kit.

I noticed the general notion is to install it on a set of aftermarket charge

pipes that comes with methanol injection nozzle bungs.

But I noticed that it is more effective to install a methanol nozzle on the cold

side of the boost pipe. BMW seems to follow the same logic on their M4 GTS

water injection system although it is directly into the intake manifold, it is on

the cold side. Whereas the majority of products locate it on the hot side

charge pipe.

I am already running a set of ESS charge pipe and don't want to re invest.

BMS seems selling just the cold side j pipe but I am not sure if it has pre-

installed nozzle bung for methanol kit. Also, it seems I need a dual nozzle set

up but can it all mount on one j pipe?

Any idea?
I use Snow Performance Nozzles and 100%Meth, on chargepipes and J Pipe as well...very effective on lowering the temps.
__________________
2022 X6MC Donington Grey Metallic/ Sakhir Orange
Appreciate 0
      08-30-2019, 03:07 PM   #8
MPOOR
First Lieutenant
MPOOR's Avatar
United_States
96
Rep
374
Posts

Drives: F80 M3 / WHITE
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: S.F bay area

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyh907 View Post
This is what I did on my N55. Used an aquamist HFS-4 and their port injection kit. Worked perfectly and held up under 25 psi from a Pure stage 2 for 20k miles.

Attachment 2128688
Attachment 2128689
Attachment 2128690
Damnnnnnnnnnnnn~~~~~~~~~~ Thank you for sharing your set up~!!
Looks D.O.P.E ~!!!
Does it require more maintenance since you have more tubes that are tapped
into intake manifold?
Also what type of adhesive did you use to fix the nozzles? Epoxy?
__________________
What shall i buy for my next track toy
Appreciate 0
      08-30-2019, 03:08 PM   #9
MPOOR
First Lieutenant
MPOOR's Avatar
United_States
96
Rep
374
Posts

Drives: F80 M3 / WHITE
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: S.F bay area

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyredgtr View Post
I use Snow Performance Nozzles and 100%Meth, on chargepipes and J Pipe as well...very effective on lowering the temps.
So you are using three nozzles total correct?? Did you purchase an aftermarket j pipe that had built-in Meth bung?
__________________
What shall i buy for my next track toy
Appreciate 0
      08-30-2019, 03:34 PM   #10
johnnyredgtr
Second Lieutenant
johnnyredgtr's Avatar
121
Rep
250
Posts

Drives: 2022 BMW X6MC
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Puerto Rico

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nysid2007 View Post
So you are using three nozzles total correct?? Did you purchase an aftermarket j pipe that had built-in Meth bung?
No, only two nozzles, one on the jpipe and one in one chargepipe. On the other chargepipe i used it to read boost to my VC-50 Snow Performance Meth control.
__________________
2022 X6MC Donington Grey Metallic/ Sakhir Orange

Last edited by johnnyredgtr; 08-30-2019 at 04:28 PM..
Appreciate 1
      08-31-2019, 07:36 AM   #11
bobbyh907
Private
34
Rep
66
Posts

Drives: 2015 M3 Alpine White
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Alaska

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nysid2007 View Post
Damnnnnnnnnnnnn~~~~~~~~~~ Thank you for sharing your set up~!!
Looks D.O.P.E ~!!!
Does it require more maintenance since you have more tubes that are tapped
into intake manifold?
Also what type of adhesive did you use to fix the nozzles? Epoxy?
Nope I just put a couple of in line high pressure filters to keep any debris that's gets through the filter funnel I use to fill the tank and then the low pressure in line filter before the pump. Yeah I drilled and tapped it for the bushings that aquamist sends with the kit then epoxied the bushings in. The nozzles screw into the bushings with an o-ring seal so super easy if I need to change nozzle sizes.
Appreciate 1
      09-01-2019, 05:47 PM   #12
ssgm1x
Captain
ssgm1x's Avatar
No_Country
418
Rep
771
Posts

Drives: 2020 M340i & 2018 M3
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Cherry hill ,NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nysid2007 View Post
hi , guys

I finally decided to "GO" for the methanol injection kit.

I noticed the general notion is to install it on a set of aftermarket charge

pipes that comes with methanol injection nozzle bungs.

But I noticed that it is more effective to install a methanol nozzle on the cold

side of the boost pipe. BMW seems to follow the same logic on their M4 GTS

water injection system although it is directly into the intake manifold, it is on

the cold side. Whereas the majority of products locate it on the hot side

charge pipe.

I am already running a set of ESS charge pipe and don't want to re invest.

BMS seems selling just the cold side j pipe but I am not sure if it has pre-

installed nozzle bung for methanol kit. Also, it seems I need a dual nozzle set

up but can it all mount on one j pipe?

Any idea?
Pro Meth did testing with an s55 manifold and found that J-pipe injection cause the middle cylinders to get much more flow than the outside cylinders.
I'm doing methanol injection via the chargepipes.
__________________
2020 BMW M340ix Dravit Grey
2018 BMW M3 Alpine White
Appreciate 0
      09-01-2019, 05:49 PM   #13
blockdoc
Lieutenant
United_States
373
Rep
500
Posts

Drives: 2015 M4
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssgm1x View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nysid2007 View Post
hi , guys

I finally decided to "GO" for the methanol injection kit.

I noticed the general notion is to install it on a set of aftermarket charge

pipes that comes with methanol injection nozzle bungs.

But I noticed that it is more effective to install a methanol nozzle on the cold

side of the boost pipe. BMW seems to follow the same logic on their M4 GTS

water injection system although it is directly into the intake manifold, it is on

the cold side. Whereas the majority of products locate it on the hot side

charge pipe.

I am already running a set of ESS charge pipe and don't want to re invest.

BMS seems selling just the cold side j pipe but I am not sure if it has pre-

installed nozzle bung for methanol kit. Also, it seems I need a dual nozzle set

up but can it all mount on one j pipe?

Any idea?
Pro Meth did testing with an s55 manifold and found that J-pipe injection cause the middle cylinders to get much more flow than the outside cylinders.
I'm doing methanol injection via the chargepipes.
That's exactly what they showed me when I visited.
The absolute BEST is PI
Appreciate 0
      09-01-2019, 06:39 PM   #14
M3anPower
Banned
176
Rep
342
Posts

Drives: F80 M3
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Somewhere

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by blockdoc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssgm1x View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nysid2007 View Post
hi , guys

I finally decided to "GO" for the methanol injection kit.

I noticed the general notion is to install it on a set of aftermarket charge

pipes that comes with methanol injection nozzle bungs.

But I noticed that it is more effective to install a methanol nozzle on the cold

side of the boost pipe. BMW seems to follow the same logic on their M4 GTS

water injection system although it is directly into the intake manifold, it is on

the cold side. Whereas the majority of products locate it on the hot side

charge pipe.

I am already running a set of ESS charge pipe and don't want to re invest.

BMS seems selling just the cold side j pipe but I am not sure if it has pre-

installed nozzle bung for methanol kit. Also, it seems I need a dual nozzle set

up but can it all mount on one j pipe?

Any idea?
Pro Meth did testing with an s55 manifold and found that J-pipe injection cause the middle cylinders to get much more flow than the outside cylinders.
I'm doing methanol injection via the chargepipes.
That's exactly what they showed me when I visited.
The absolute BEST is PI
They showed you the s55 manifold in action?
Appreciate 0
      09-01-2019, 06:55 PM   #15
blockdoc
Lieutenant
United_States
373
Rep
500
Posts

Drives: 2015 M4
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3anPower View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by blockdoc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssgm1x View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nysid2007 View Post
hi , guys

I finally decided to "GO" for the methanol injection kit.

I noticed the general notion is to install it on a set of aftermarket charge

pipes that comes with methanol injection nozzle bungs.

But I noticed that it is more effective to install a methanol nozzle on the cold

side of the boost pipe. BMW seems to follow the same logic on their M4 GTS

water injection system although it is directly into the intake manifold, it is on

the cold side. Whereas the majority of products locate it on the hot side

charge pipe.

I am already running a set of ESS charge pipe and don't want to re invest.

BMS seems selling just the cold side j pipe but I am not sure if it has pre-

installed nozzle bung for methanol kit. Also, it seems I need a dual nozzle set

up but can it all mount on one j pipe?

Any idea?
Pro Meth did testing with an s55 manifold and found that J-pipe injection cause the middle cylinders to get much more flow than the outside cylinders.
I'm doing methanol injection via the chargepipes.
That's exactly what they showed me when I visited.
The absolute BEST is PI
They showed you the s55 manifold in action?
They've got a whole bunch of manifolds. They have the clear one they used for testing. Didn't actually see it work but he showed me where they did the testing
Appreciate 0
      09-01-2019, 10:36 PM   #16
Fuel-It!
Banned
547
Rep
949
Posts

Drives: M4, M5, M2C, X4M, 440i, etc...
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Phoenix AZ

iTrader: (0)

The BMS J pipe has a WMI nozzle on it but the hot side chargepipe placement works very well on this application. The JB4 is able to monitor fuel trims in both banks and one of the safety systems that sets it apart from other "dumb" WMI systems is that it will disable meth/lower boost if it ever appears one cylinder is getting more fuel than the others.
Appreciate 1
blockdoc373.00
      09-02-2019, 07:23 AM   #17
bobbyh907
Private
34
Rep
66
Posts

Drives: 2015 M3 Alpine White
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Alaska

iTrader: (0)

How would it be able to tell if cyl 1 is lean but cyl 3 is rich?
Appreciate 0
      09-02-2019, 10:47 AM   #18
Fuel-It!
Banned
547
Rep
949
Posts

Drives: M4, M5, M2C, X4M, 440i, etc...
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Phoenix AZ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyh907 View Post
How would it be able to tell if cyl 1 is lean but cyl 3 is rich?
You'll still get a variance for differences within the bank compared to the bank with normal distribution just a smaller variance. Also, the leaner cylinder will have increased knock activity and can be spotted that way as well.
Appreciate 1
      09-02-2019, 04:19 PM   #19
bobbyh907
Private
34
Rep
66
Posts

Drives: 2015 M3 Alpine White
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Alaska

iTrader: (0)

So it can't is what you're saying. It responds to knock. At what variance of timing corrections does it trip the safety map?
Appreciate 0
      09-02-2019, 04:27 PM   #20
Fuel-It!
Banned
547
Rep
949
Posts

Drives: M4, M5, M2C, X4M, 440i, etc...
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Phoenix AZ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyh907 View Post
So it can't is what you're saying. It responds to knock. At what variance of timing corrections does it trip the safety map?
You can still spot those interabank fueling variances via the fuel trims it's just less obvious than the more common issue of cyl1 getting less fuel than the rest of the cylinders with WMI kits.

The specific thresholds for safety switches based on trims, timing drops, etc, would depend on the firmware and settings. You'd have to contact BMS with help on setup for that based on your specific needs.

On nozzle placement as stated I've seen better results with the hot side placement and that is what we suggest for most WMI applications.
Appreciate 2
blockdoc373.00
sly1types426.50
      03-09-2020, 05:08 AM   #21
AlpineWhiteF30
Private First Class
AlpineWhiteF30's Avatar
17
Rep
113
Posts

Drives: BMW ///M4 Mosselman
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyredgtr View Post
No, only two nozzles, one on the jpipe and one in one chargepipe. On the other chargepipe i used it to read boost to my VC-50 Snow Performance Meth control.
You have any pics of your set up. I bought a stage 3 Snow P Meth kit. I have VRSF CP and J pipe. I’m looking at doing the same. I have Mosselman turbos and trying to hit 700.
Appreciate 0
      03-09-2020, 01:09 PM   #22
johnnyredgtr
Second Lieutenant
johnnyredgtr's Avatar
121
Rep
250
Posts

Drives: 2022 BMW X6MC
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Puerto Rico

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpineWhiteF30 View Post
You have any pics of your set up. I bought a stage 3 Snow P Meth kit. I have VRSF CP and J pipe. I’m looking at doing the same. I have Mosselman turbos and trying to hit 700.
I don't have a pics but, i only used one of the Chargepipes for meth and the other is for boost on my VC-50. I will try to take a pic. The 2nd noozle is in the jpipe.
__________________
2022 X6MC Donington Grey Metallic/ Sakhir Orange
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:25 AM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST