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      05-22-2013, 01:50 PM   #45
BigMacSmallFries
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Automobile mag just stated the horsepower and torque will be approximately 450hp and 406 ft lbs respectively. Check the home page out.

Let's assume the redline is 7900 for now.

Edit:

Since the M5/M6 horsepower and torque is 560 and 500, I imagine the goal of the engineers was 100 less in each category: 460 and 400.

However I imagine BMW M would create horsepower levels that separate the 2, 4, and 6 in a simplified manner. For example:

M6: 560 500 8cyl
M4: 450 400 6cyl
M2: 340 300 4cyl

A scheme like that would make sense and sound plausible to me.

Last edited by BigMacSmallFries; 05-22-2013 at 02:01 PM.
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      05-22-2013, 01:51 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burrito007 View Post
if this is all TRUE - the car will be a real monster when tuned to hold boost to redline - we are talking 600hp.
Yes, if it revs about 8000rpm, I think they must use forged pistons, crank and conrods so easily 500-600hp.
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      05-22-2013, 01:51 PM   #47
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Not sure if that "hump" on the hood is really necessary... It makes the F30-style nose look even more "droopy" :-/
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      05-22-2013, 01:56 PM   #48
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      05-22-2013, 01:58 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
This is incorrect. Usually, the higher the percentage of peak torque is produced at redline, the higher the power output of an engine.

And power best indicates the capabilites of an engine .
i agree with you about power, but there are different ways to get there....revs being the other obvious one besides torque. the engineer may decide that tapering off the torque quickly (especially in a boosted engine) is worth it from a durability point of view and that can be compensated with increased Revs. My point is that an engine that runs 70% torque at red-line is not inferior to an engine that runs 80% just b/c the % is lower.
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      05-22-2013, 02:02 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisK View Post
I may have to do another euro delivery lol
Just don't order Atlantis Blue. This engine is looking better and better. I just hope it sounds good too.
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      05-22-2013, 02:05 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATX78703 View Post
i agree with you about power, but there are different ways to get there....revs being the other obvious one besides torque. the engineer may decide that tapering off the torque quickly (especially in a boosted engine) is worth it from a durability point of view and that can be compensated with increased Revs. My point is that an engine that runs 70% torque at red-line is not inferior to an engine that runs 80% just b/c the % is lower.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATX78703 View Post
The amount of torque you make after 5252 rpm is irrelevant. there's nothing gained by making a higher percentage of peak torque at redline.
True. It is a combination of the RPM at redline and the % of peak torque produced at redline. There is still something to be gained by producing more torque at redline. It can be offset by increasing the revs of the redline, but saying that nothing is to be gained is untrue.

I still question your statement where torque produced past 5252RPM is irrelevant .

5252 is simply a constant for the power/torque/RPM relationship in the imperial system. This number is meaningless in the actual physics of the engine.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 05-22-2013 at 02:54 PM.
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      05-22-2013, 02:06 PM   #52
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Lets hope we see 450/400. Everytime I see an update here it helps put off my desire to trade in now and wait for the M4. Time will tell! Thanks for the update!
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      05-22-2013, 02:10 PM   #53
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Looking like another winner. My only concern is if the high redline is artificial. If the power is flat from 5500 on up, then the car won't have that continuous rush of power. My 335i was like that. No real reason to go over 6k rpm. All that would happen is a lot of noise and no increase in power delivery.

I hope they aren't doing that just to market this new M3/M4 as a "high rev" engine to appease the M masses.

Time will tell, but I would be surprised if this new version of the M legacy wasn't fantastic.
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      05-22-2013, 02:12 PM   #54
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bse !!!! bad boy
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      05-22-2013, 02:15 PM   #55
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8k rpm .... Hmmmm, time to sshhhhh some of the s65 fanatics here.
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      05-22-2013, 02:33 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
I can't mention names but we were told so by someone who is intimately involved in BMW M3/M4 development.


Best regards,
south

looking forward to pages and pages of posts from doubting thomases that LOVE their BMW motors (inline 6 only!!!) but somehow feel that BMW AG can't improve on motor design or somethng...


" no way it will have an 8K redline with a turbo... "

" turbos don't rev high.. "

" i won't buy it if it's not naturally aspirated... "

i won't buy it if it's not an inline 6 " etc..


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      05-22-2013, 02:44 PM   #57
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All this sounds great!! Now BMW don't fuck up the steering
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      05-22-2013, 02:46 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATX78703 View Post
+1
If the car redlines to 8K, then the specs should be more along 450 hp, 380 lb-ft... should be a bigger differential b/t hp and torque.
See how this marketing works.

In no time you have people mentioning 8,000 redline.

Just like the near E46 M3 weight comments.
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      05-22-2013, 02:48 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auaq View Post
8k rpm .... Hmmmm, time to sshhhhh some of the s65 fanatics here.
Not until we hear how the engine sounds (intake/exhaust)
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      05-22-2013, 02:51 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATX78703 View Post
The amount of torque you make after 5252 rpm is irrelevant. there's nothing gained by making a higher percentage of peak torque at redline.
...what? The horsepower you make at any RPM is a function of the torque you're making at that same RPM. More torque at redline means more horsepower at redline.

I see your point about what I said about 70% of torque at redline vs 80%, I wasn't clear on what my point was. I'm trying to say that the torque is dropping off rapidly compared to peak torque which makes for an N54/N55 style lazy motor that doesn't pull hard towards redline vs what we like to see in an M motor where the motor makes most of its power right at or near redline instead of making peak power at like 5,500RPM. This is the difference between a car that doesn't really feel that fast and a car that pushes you back in your seat in each gear as it pulls harder and harder.

The numbers S62 came up with on the first page look realistic to me (and yes, that would be a power curve similar to the M5/M6) but you can see what I'm talking about where the torque curve drops rapidly and the horsepower curve is a big plateau instead of a peak like the current M3. Ironically, this type of power curve will result in a faster car (with a huge area under the curve) but one which may feel less fast than a peakier power curve from behind the wheel.

Last edited by Remonster; 05-22-2013 at 02:59 PM.
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      05-22-2013, 02:53 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holander View Post
Nearly 8000rpm means, that engine is heavy modified N55, not badge tuning.

....Mclaren Mp4 3.8L tc V8 revs 8500rpm.
Wow...wow...simmer down know. Now we have people mentioning MP4 in the breath. LOL!

"nearly 8,000"...something like 7,800 is a world apart from 8,500.
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      05-22-2013, 02:55 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auaq View Post
8k rpm .... Hmmmm, time to sshhhhh some of the s65 fanatics here.
Is that what you read...8,000?
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      05-22-2013, 03:00 PM   #63
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"Nearly" 8000 rpm Keep playing it up
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      05-22-2013, 03:02 PM   #64
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Really?




Quote:
Originally Posted by ATX78703 View Post
The amount of torque you make after 5252 rpm is irrelevant. there's nothing gained by making a higher percentage of peak torque at redline.
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      05-22-2013, 03:03 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
All this sounds great!! Now BMW don't fuck up the steering
Agree, the S65 is everything good said about it and more. It's truly an epic masterpiece. However it's still just the power plant. Put it in the F10 and it's still a lousy uninspiring drive but put the N55 in the E9X M3 and you still have a pretty awesome car. So much talk about the engine when to me the main concern is the steering. The chassi communication is another but the spy shots and videos indicates a fantastic well sorted chassi with very little body motions. The steering is really the thing. I hope they are testing both a HPS and EPS system and only go with the EPS if it's really good.
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      05-22-2013, 03:05 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Interesting article on the McLaren MP4-12C on the dyno and with power curves.

http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/t...no-tested.html

As can be seen on that engine, it's possible to combine high end power, high rev limit and turbocharging.



Interesting overlay of power curves for the McLaren, Porsche 911 GT2 RS and Lexus LFA:

It is possible to combine high end power, high revs, and turbos but to do so you need bigger turbos, bigger piping on the intake side, etc. to flow enough air at those high RPMs and this usually results in a little extra lag. I've seen real world drivers post complaints about the turbo lag on the MP4-12c on Rennlist and 6speed and other forums. I've never been in a 12c so I can't say how bad the lag really is, it's likely they're just being overly picky or trying to compare that car to the insanely responsive 458 Italia, but the main trade off for a high revving turbocharged car is turbo lag. That article also mentions that the McLaren made peak power at 7,700RPM despite its 8,500RPM which is a pretty good power curve but you can see that they still sacrificed a little bit of top end power in order to keep the lag to reasonable levels and to gain a little more power in the midrange.

BMW could get around this by having two (or more) differently sized turbos like the Mark IV Supra, M550d, etc. so I'm very interested to see what this S55 motor turns out to be like.

btw, here's one owner's review of his MP4-12c; "- Throttle response leaves a little to be desired. - TURBO LAG! Below 3000rpm the small engine does show through. You really have to be above 3000rpm all the time otherwise it feels like I am driving my smart car. There really is virtually no get up and go at all compared to my similar cars."

Last edited by Remonster; 05-22-2013 at 03:11 PM.
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