M4 vs TRACTION

[ss134]

Originally Posted by DaFish

Fast times for sure. It has fast track times too. All the car mag articles, and there are more than 3 or 4, are complaining about traction. You find powering out of corners requires some patience or judicious throttle control?

Is first gear usable?

What about wet?

I've driven over 6000 miles in my F80 now and it has very good traction and grip in dry conditions . Powering out of corners does require patience though, you cannot just plant your foot down in the lower gears. First gear needs to be modulated in the dry also and sometimes second.

In the wet? Forget it . It will spin it's tyres on full throttle even into 4th. I've had the back end step out in a straight line at over 100 mph in the wet.

In the dry the RS5 would be dispatched easily by the F80 no question but in the wet you just cannot deploy ALL of the F80s power to the ground , part throttle is needed in at least the first 3 gears and sometimes into 4th at full throttle up shifts. In the hands of 99% of drivers the RS5 would be much faster and be far easier and more confidence inspiring on a wet road than the F80. I like my F80 but that is a fact. It's not an easy car to drive quickly in the wet, it's a handful.

Driving reasonably quickly is fine, but if you really try and attack a wet road in this car you had better be a very good driver.

I genuinely believe that on a wet road I would be faster in my old E90 M3- it was definitely easier to drive in those conditions.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

Yes, people find the DSC cuts in too early but that's because their tyres are in good condition.

When the tyres get half worn then the way it's been programed is actually a life saver.

When the PS2 on my 1M was fairly new, I was cursing the DSC...when the tyres starts wearing out and traction goes downhill, I was grateful for it. DSC don't come on often then and instead car has snappy oversteer left and then right within 0.5 seconds on uneven roads even on the straight.

Now the car has new PSS tyres and I am back to seeing regular DSC lights flashing.

Wouldn't half worn tires actually improve dry traction though?

[brava09]

Originally Posted by ss134

Powering out of corners does require patience though, you cannot just plant your foot down in the lower gears. First gear needs to be modulated in the dry also and sometimes second.


In the dry the RS5 would be dispatched easily by the F80 no question

.

Really? you're not going to dispatch any RS5 in the dry, unless you go above 100mph. By the time you are busy modulating the first and second gear in the M4, the RS5 is long gone...need to play catch up.

The M4 would be faster than the RS5 only at triple digits speed.

[brava09]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

I had a S4 but way back in 05. Loved it in the rain, but man the thing understeers. That car was no fun at all to drive at the limits. The more you push, the more the car understeers and fights back at you! It was also poorly weighted with the engine too far in front of the wheels.

Never drove an RS5 but if you look at the specs it is the same Audi formula- it is heavy 4027 lbs, with 58%/42% weight distribution!

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...son/specs.html

If you look at most reviewers with the RS5, RS6, S6, S4, AWD in the Audi still understeers grossly. I would not consider Audi cars in any serious sports car application, until they fix those issues.

You are right the RS5 is a great and easy car to drive but at anything above 7/10's you will find it very lacking.

Now the AWD in the GT-R apparently eliminates most of the understeer.

The E92 M3 understeers as well...give it enough speed at a slow corner entry and it will keep straight.

In my RS5 never experienced understeer, while in my former E92 M3 it happened a couple of times when the front wheels lost the grip.


Please note that I am talking from my own experience in both cars, while you are just assuming/imagining about the RS5.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by brava09

Really? you're not going to dispatch any RS5 in the dry, unless you go above 100mph. By the time you are busy modulating the first and second gear in the M4, the RS5 is long gone...need to play catch up.

The M4 would be faster than the RS5 only at triple digits speed.

Didn't we already have this debate with you?

You might be correct from a DEAD stand still... from a 25 MPH roll it is the other way around (see below). Your "only over 100mph" comment garbage is simply not true.

Look at 1/4 mile results. The M4 is faster time wise and a much higher trap speed. Even from a dig it gets to the 1/4 mile mark faster and at that point is walking away. The RS5 is a 12.5s car and the M4 is 12.0 to 12.1s. The RS5 is trapping 112mph and the M4 is trapping close to 120mph so at the 1/4 mile marker the M4 is simply walking away.

You are correct, however, that for a stop light to stop light race, the RS5 has better traction and will be faster. On the highway, the M4 walks away unless the driver is a complete dummy.

Your assertion that the M4 is faster only at triple digit speeds is simply wrong. Here is an example of a rolling race (and they are NOT starting in triple digit speeds)... granted RS4 but the result wouldn't be meaningfully different.

And here's another with the R8. Same result...

So, I don't disagree that from a standing start (i.e. stop light race) the RS5 is a push gas/go car and would get the jump but for any other type of speed contest, it loses very badly.

Your RS5 is a great car and, depending on need/want/preference, as good or better than the M4 on the street so I'm taking nothing away from it. However, it is a slower car in almost all meaningful ways (other than a standing start until the M4 catches and passes it). To suggest otherwise is incorrect.

[Merli]

Originally Posted by brava09

blah blah blah...

Insert delusional crap here.

Oh God... You again.......

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by gthal

Didn't we already have this debate with you?

You might be correct from a DEAD stand still... from a 25 MPH roll it is the other way around (see below). Your "only over 100mph" comment garbage is simply not true.

Look at 1/4 mile results. The M4 is faster time wise and a much higher trap speed. Even from a dig it gets to the 1/4 mile mark faster and at that point is walking away. The RS5 is a 12.5s car and the M4 is 12.0 to 12.1s. The RS5 is trapping 112mph and the M4 is trapping close to 120mph so at the 1/4 mile marker the M4 is simply walking away.

You are correct, however, that for a stop light to stop light race, the RS5 has better traction and will be faster. On the highway, the M4 walks away unless the driver is a complete dummy.

Your assertion that the M4 is faster only at triple digit speeds is simply wrong. Here is an example of a rolling race (and they are NOT starting in triple digit speeds)... granted RS4 but the result wouldn't be meaningfully different.

http://<div class="youtube-playerCon.../iframe></div>

And here's another with the R8. Same result...

http://<div class="youtube-playerCon.../iframe></div>

So, I don't disagree that from a standing start (i.e. stop light race) the RS5 is a push gas/go car and would get the jump but for any other type of speed contest, it loses very badly.

Your RS5 is a great car and, depending on need/want/preference, as good or better than the M4 on the street so I'm taking nothing away from it. However, it is a slower car in almost all meaningful ways (other than a standing start until the M4 catches and passes it). To suggest otherwise is incorrect.

Not saying that the RS5 is faster or anything, but Motortrend has done 12.3@112.2 mph with one, still a bit better then 12.5.

Also good to note that they tested the C63 507 same day at 12.2@117 while my friend run 11.9-12.0 with his, so their numbers for the RS5 are probably not the exeption.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

Not saying that the RS5 is faster or anything, but Motortrend has done 12.3@112.2 mph with one, still a bit better then 12.5.

Also good to note that they tested the C63 507 same day at 12.2@117 while my friend run 11.9-12.0 with his, so their numbers for the RS5 are probably not the exeption.

The whole point lies in the trap speed. The RS5 will have a great launch due to its AWD traction advantage, which will give it a good ET. However the better (average) power-to-weight of the M4 will give it the advantage in trap speed.

From a dig, the RS5 will be ahead at first and the M4 will eventually catch up.

From a roll, the RS5 has no chance.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The whole point lies in the trap speed. The RS5 will have a great launch due to its AWD traction advantage, which will give it a good ET. However the better (average) power-to-weight of the M4 will give it the advantage in trap speed.

From a dig, the RS5 will be ahead at first and the M4 will eventually catch up.

From a roll, the RS5 has no chance.

Yeah I know how 1/4 mile work, and it's obvious that the M4 is much faster from a roll at pretty much every speed, just wanted to set the record straight about what the RS5 can do at the drag strip.

Don't forget though that not everything is christal clear just by looking at the trap speed, like we saw with the race of the M4 vs E60 M5 in the other thread, a slower trapping M5 is faster then an M4, some turbo engines have that tendency to run out of breath at higher speed while N/A ususally don't.

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

Not saying that the RS5 is faster or anything, but Motortrend has done 12.3@112.2 mph with one, still a bit better then 12.5.

Also good to note that they tested the C63 507 same day at 12.2@117 while my friend run 11.9-12.0 with his, so their numbers for the RS5 are probably not the exeption.

So - the one thing that we can agree on is that the F8x, the RS5 and the C63 are all quite a bit faster than the E9x...

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

Yeah I know how 1/4 mile work, and it's obvious that the M4 is much faster from a roll at pretty much every speed, just wanted to set the record straight about what the RS5 can do at the drag strip.

Don't forget though that not everything is christal clear just by looking at the trap speed, like we saw with the race of the M4 vs E60 M5 in the other thread, a slower trapping M5 is faster then an M4, some turbo engines have that tendency to run out of breath at higher speed while N/A ususally don't.

That is the beauty of the S55, it does not run out of breath at high speed. It keeps peak power all the way to 7300RPM.

Also keep in mind that the S85 does churn 500hp; 75hp more than the M4. Not that surprising it can keep up. And the 1/4 trap speed of the E60 M5 are not that far off the F8X...

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by brava09

The E92 M3 understeers as well...give it enough speed at a slow corner entry and it will keep straight.

In my RS5 never experienced understeer, while in my former E92 M3 it happened a couple of times when the front wheels lost the grip.


Please note that I am talking from my own experience in both cars, while you are just assuming/imagining about the RS5.

you are not driving hard enough. leave your wife or g/f or your chihuahua/pomeranian out of the car and go to a place with few cars and curves.

Again, my old s4 had the same formula. front heavy, engine mounted too far in front of the wheels. Quattro AWD. It causes textbook understeer, look it up. Look up every reviewers issue with Audi AWD cars.

Your E92's understeer can be corrected because the car's handling is balanced, so you can induce power oversteer.

Whereas your RS5, once grip is lost it understeers...

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

So - the one thing that we can agree on is that the F8x, the RS5 and the C63 are all quite a bit faster than the E9x...

Depends if you speak only of 1/4 mile cause if I remember correctly, a DCT E9x has tiny advantage over the RS5 on a roll, really tiny but still it's faster!

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

That is the beauty of the S55, it does not run out of breath at high speed. It keeps peak power all the way to 7300RPM.

Also keep in mind that the S85 does churn 500hp; 75hp more than the M4. Not that surprising it can keep up. And the 1/4 trap speed of the E60 M5 are not that far off the F8X...

In fact the S55 is one of the engine I was speaking of when I said that some turbo engine run out of breath at higher speed, a bit like the 1M engine. That's the exact reason why a FOB E9x get destroyed by a F8x in the lower gear but yet is capable of running beside it at higher highway speed, that also explain why this E60 M5 is passing him later on after getting passed in the beginning of the race.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

In fact the S55 is one of the engine I was speaking of when I said that some turbo engine run out of breath at higher speed, a bit like the 1M engine. That's the exact reason why a FOB E9x get destroyed by a F8x in the lower gear but yet is capable of running beside it at higher highway speed.

Even if this were true, I'll take the win to 100mph... wouldn't race past that anyway Wait, I wouldn't street race at all... dumb, dumb, dumb... it's all for bragging rights regardless. A road course is more fun and the F8X is the faster car there anyway.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by gthal

Even if this were true, I'll take the win to 100mph... wouldn't race past that anyway Wait, I wouldn't street race at all... dumb, dumb, dumb... it's all for bragging rights regardless. A road course is more fun and the F8X is the faster car there anyway.

I'm pretty sure everyone would choose the win under 100mph race, except maybe those germain people who are lucky enough to take the Autobhan on a regular basis.

But althought the F8x is surely faster on a road course(and like you said, that's only for bragging rights), I'm not sure it is that much more fun and exithing to drive as a nicelly modded N/A E9x with a +8000rpm to play with and much more confidence inspirering power delivery, without forgetting that lovely rewarding engine noise. I've seen at many people say that in most hands, the E9x is not really slower then the F8x on a track, just because of that power delivery.

Not trying to troll BTW, just stating what my thought is on this subject!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

I'm pretty sure everyone would choose the win under 100mph race, except maybe those germain people who are lucky enough to take the Autobhan on a regular basis.

But althought the F8x is surely faster on a road course(and like you said, that's only for bragging rights), I'm not sure it is that much more fun and exithing to drive as a nicelly modded N/A E9x with a +8000rpm to play with and much more confidence inspirering power delivery, without forgetting that lovely rewarding engine noise. I've seen at many people say that in most hands, the E9x is not really slower then the F8x on a track, just because of that power delivery.

Not trying to troll BTW, just stating what my thought is on this subject!

Is there a good emoticon to reply to this post...? Yes there is:

[myzmak]

I was leaning towards

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

Depends if you speak only of 1/4 mile cause if I remember correctly, a DCT E9x has tiny advantage over the RS5 on a roll, really tiny but still it's faster!

The E9x stock DCT has never had a quarter mile at 12.3 like the RS5 - there was one outlier at 12.5 I believe - but all other stock times were at 12.6 or higher.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

The E9x stock DCT has never had a quarter mile at 12.3 like the RS5 - there was one outlier at 12.5 I believe - but all other stock times were at 12.6 or higher.

Yeah that's exactly what I said, if you are talking only of 1/4 mile, yes all these cars are faster then a E9x, but on a rolling race, a DCT M3 is a tiny tiny bit faster then a RS5.

[Carl L]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

I'm pretty sure everyone would choose the win under 100mph race, except maybe those germain people who are lucky enough to take the Autobhan on a regular basis.

But althought the F8x is surely faster on a road course(and like you said, that's only for bragging rights), I'm not sure it is that much more fun and exithing to drive as a nicelly modded N/A E9x with a +8000rpm to play with and much more confidence inspirering power delivery, without forgetting that lovely rewarding engine noise. I've seen at many people say that in most hands, the E9x is not really slower then the F8x on a track, just because of that power delivery.

Not trying to troll BTW, just stating what my thought is on this subject!

Good grief, mentally ill much? Also gthal didn't say a road course was for bragging rights, re-read it. You've never been to a track but many of us are there monthly so stop talking about it and go browse carmax some more.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by Carl L

Good grief, mentally ill much? Also gthal didn't say a road course was for bragging rights, re-read it. You've never been to a track but many of us are there monthly so stop talking about it and go browse carmax some more.

No I'm not ill, I just think a ZCP E92 with a small BBK in a front, some good coilovers, test pipes+tune and some 265/285 tires would probably be more fun on a track then a F8x, for a couple of reason, the easiness to put the power down and the intoxicating powerdand and sound of the engine! You don't have to agree!

As for my bragging right comment, what I meant was that like Gthal who said that street racing was all for the bragging right, I think the same about wanting to have the fastest car on the track.

And BTW, I've been on a track a couple of times, with my cars but also with a Gallardo Superlegerra. And although I was missing the instant torque of my modded STI in my M3, I would'nt have wanted it without the AWD, that 's just me, and that's just my opinion, you don't have to share it but respecting it would be the nice thing to do!