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      05-17-2014, 09:51 AM   #221
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I am surprised no one has made the point that the reviewers aren't saying "it is the bomb, just run to the dealer... go get one" etc. without qualifying their comments.
I've never read an m3 review in the past where there were so many qualifications.

E46 and E9X reviews were more compelling.
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      05-17-2014, 09:52 AM   #222
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Unfortunately it seems you van't get the best of both worlds 100%...

The DD part definitely seems to be better and it won't be so easily caught in the wrong gear the same way a NA engine can. It seems however that the thrill of taking it all the way to the redline have taken a step back on the S55...

But, the next gen M3!!! That will nail all of those parts in one great package
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      05-17-2014, 09:55 AM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330indy View Post
I am surprised no one has made the point that the reviewers aren't saying "it is the bomb, just run to the dealer... go get one" etc. without qualifying their comments.
I've never read an m3 review in the past where there were so many qualifications.

E46 and E9X reviews were more compelling.
Where they?

EVO Magazine actually declared the E46 M3 a better M3 when they compared it with the E92 M3 when that was launched...

I have read many E9x reviews that had qualifications on the weight, steering and not least the engines low rpm power and mileage...
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      05-17-2014, 10:00 AM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elitex
Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinweiss 335i
I'm happy someone finally agrees that the e92 feels heavy and "slow". I've always said my f30 335i "feels" much faster than my e92 M3 did.


So I guess it's official. We are now allowed to openly criticize the e92 M3.
It does when you get caught in the wrong gear. Happens all the time when you're just cruising around town.
Yeah right
Because I bought an M3 to boost my fragile ego, street race and feel superior.
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      05-17-2014, 10:01 AM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V1.47fan View Post
The E30 M3 is very competitive in its class in various racing series, NASA, SCCA etc. A great momentum car like the Miata.
You're not going to be top 3 at the nationals in A stock class in an E9X M3 or F8X M3. There was a time when the M3 wasnt about drag racing at airports.
I should have used the word quick, not fast. The E30 was very fast around a track, but not because it was quick in a straight line. We're in agreement.
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      05-17-2014, 10:05 AM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Where they?

EVO Magazine actually declared the E46 M3 a better M3 when they compared it with the E92 M3 when that was launched...

I have read many E9x reviews that had qualifications on the weight, steering and not least the engines low rpm power and mileage...
I remember the same thing. My recollection of reviews for every new M3 since the E30 is "OMG they made it so much fatter!" There were usually bits that they found better, but there always seemed to be a handful of things about the previous gen that everyone loved.

It sounds like this most recent car has an improved chassis, but the engine is a step backwards.
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      05-17-2014, 10:09 AM   #227
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I will still buy a 2016 MY (please be out for June ED) but I really want another 50hp... I want some sort of "wow" in the car, not just a DD, I think 475hp and 425lbs would do that for me. I love my e36 for a track car, my e92 feels special and just sounds amazing, not sure if I will trade it in or not (winter car)? Yes, it feels heavy and slow 20% of the time.
With that said, I had a 1M and that car/motor was fun, just flat out fun everyday. If this is even close to the fun of my 1M with a better interior it will be a good car. Special though....I'll need to drive one first and please give me a lot of power.
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      05-17-2014, 10:12 AM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330indy View Post
I am surprised no one has made the point that the reviewers aren't saying "it is the bomb, just run to the dealer... go get one" etc. without qualifying their comments.
I've never read an m3 review in the past where there were so many qualifications.

E46 and E9X reviews were more compelling.
That is time clouding your memory.

I summarized some old reviews here:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...w#post15958808

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...g#post15928716

They were at LEAST as critical (and, actually, on the same issues - steering, response, weight, lack of 'rawness' etc).

Remember, reviewers can't be pure fanboys. They have to nitpick because (a) these cars are not perfect; and (b) they have to maintain some critical distance to reflect that they understand point (a) and because that is actually their job.

Don't be fooled: these are all very positive reviews. At least as positive as the E90 and we all know how great that car is seen to be now....

Last edited by (((myzmak))); 05-17-2014 at 10:14 AM. Reason: fixed links.
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      05-17-2014, 10:20 AM   #229
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OP thank you for posting that review. Looking forward to see the video.
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      05-17-2014, 10:23 AM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330indy
Quote:
Originally Posted by elitex
Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinweiss 335i
I'm happy someone finally agrees that the e92 feels heavy and "slow". I've always said my f30 335i "feels" much faster than my e92 M3 did.


So I guess it's official. We are now allowed to openly criticize the e92 M3.
It does when you get caught in the wrong gear. Happens all the time when you're just cruising around town.
Yeah right
Because I bought an M3 to boost my fragile ego, street race and feel superior.
Wait, I am confused. You don't agree with what I said?

M3 is still supposed to be relatively quick, ppl will always jump in and say that it's not just about straight line speed. True but having straight line speed with the rest of the package makes for an awesome driving experience. IMO....
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      05-17-2014, 10:42 AM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330indy View Post
I am surprised no one has made the point that the reviewers aren't saying "it is the bomb, just run to the dealer... go get one" etc. without qualifying their comments.
I've never read an m3 review in the past where there were so many qualifications.
Really?
chris harris ‏harrismonkey May 9
"If you haven't already ordered a new M3, stop what you're doing IMMEDIATELY and go and do so. It's ace."
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      05-17-2014, 10:55 AM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post
Really?
chris harris ‏harrismonkey May 9
"If you haven't already ordered a new M3, stop what you're doing IMMEDIATELY and go and do so. It's ace."
What he meant to say is that so far none of these journalists have bothered to set up shop outside his home to run a large neon sign that flashes

BUY THE NEW M3

330INDY ... DO IT NOW


Therefore it must be a POS.
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      05-17-2014, 11:18 AM   #233
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From the Pistonheads forum, Harris's interesting, frank and sober reply to another journo poster. As a E90 M3 owner I believe he's spot on with regard to the outgoing V8 motor, love it but won't really miss it apart from the sound, and that's only be it has an Akra.

Quote:
cmoose said:
Perhaps. But I also think that perhaps the current car enthusiast journalistic crop forgets that the guy buying the M3/4 may not actually drive much or even anything else regularly. So while journos are routinely in something with a really extreme engine / getting their visceral fix and therefore think, OK for my daily this new M3 engine is bland but torquey and that's OK, for the people buying this car I think they should be encouraged to demand something more exciting and life affirming than yet another samey, numb turbo rocket.

If you're driving GT3s and Paganis and P1s and LaFs regularly, a bland M3 lump is OK for a daily / chase / camera car etc. If it's really all you drive, the loss of the old NA BMW engines is a minor tragedy - that's what made M cars so wonderful, you drove a saloon with an engine that was as special and exciting as a supercar.

Plus the M3 daily of today is the used performance bargain / weekend toy of tomorrow, and none of the latest M crop appeal in that context, more's the pity.


Chris Harris replies:
Jeremy - I'm going to call you by your real name Mr.Laird because I think you often represent yourself as being 'in the trade' and people like us - journalists - don't really have the right to hide behind soubriquets.

Before presenting yourself as the arbiter of what all car enthusiasts should want in an everyday, fast saloon car, it might be best to drive the new M3. If you do and still think the engine is bland, it'll confirm that my opinion on the subject of what is usable, enjoyable and an acceptable loss in 'feel' in the face of ever more stringent emissions and safety regulations is very different to yours. Of course mine is just another opinion, as is yours, but If you'd like to openly discuss which of us better understands this end of the marketplace,and what buyers are actually looking for, then I'm happy to do so here. And admit my mistakes. But as far as I can recall, I have never edited a car magazine devoted to electric cars and hybrids. However, I have lived with pretty much every car in this class for tens of thousands of miles at a time.

Of course your blanket dismissal of people like me spending too much time in GT3s to be able to judge what someone might want from a single performance car is ludicrous, so I won't bother to explain it.

What I will reiterate is that torque is far more useful than outright power in a street car. And I think more absorbing for a daily driver over time. The new M3 has torque and too end. I ran an E92 M3 everyday, for 11,000 miles to confirm that'll had too little of the former. But I also drove a few Zondaghinis during that period, so according to your theory, I'm not qualified to state that I had to drive the buttons off it to stay ahead of turbodiesels and I just couldn't enjoy that amazing top end enough.

Fuel economy? Read again - I'm talking about range. Range is what matters to people who can afford a 60k car. Spending less time at horrid fuel stations. And that is sadly quite closely related to fuel economy. Again, my frequent exposure to Ferraris must mean that I don't quite understand the range issue on the E92.

Sorry if you think I've given you both barrels unfairly, but I don't think it's fair to jump chameleon-style between being forum punter and journalist when it suits you. And then to have pops from the sidelines .

The M3 is a cracker in my opinion. Anyone who thinks the powertrain is boring needs their head looking at. But that's just my opinion. What really matters is what owners think of the car. I hope to be one of those at some point. And I'll still drive the odd GT3.

Typed on my phone, so apologies for typos etc

Last edited by consolidated; 05-17-2014 at 11:51 AM.
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      05-17-2014, 11:46 AM   #234
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      05-17-2014, 11:53 AM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by consolidated View Post
From the Pistonheads forum, Harris's interesting, frank and sober reply to another journo poster.
I must confess to not having read CH's reviews before. If I have, I didn't bother to learn his name. Since he seemed to be considered some kind of sage automotive Guru around these parts, I was interested to read his review to see what the fuss was about. I really enjoyed his initial review as it seemed to hit on the important points, and provided information that I could use about the car I'm buying. Reading the reply you posted above, made me see why he is a legend.

Unfortunately, he isn't helping ease my ants-in-my-pants excitement about the car I will be picking up in Munich in a month's time. I think I'm going to absolutely adore my street fighting, float like a butterfly, sting like a bee, crappy sounding (at times) Bavarian driving machine.
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      05-17-2014, 12:53 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by consolidated
From the Pistonheads forum, Harris's interesting, frank and sober reply to another journo poster. As a E90 M3 owner I believe he's spot on with regard to the outgoing V8 motor, love it but won't really miss it apart from the sound, and that's only be it has an Akra.

Quote:
cmoose said:
Perhaps. But I also think that perhaps the current car enthusiast journalistic crop forgets that the guy buying the M3/4 may not actually drive much or even anything else regularly. So while journos are routinely in something with a really extreme engine / getting their visceral fix and therefore think, OK for my daily this new M3 engine is bland but torquey and that's OK, for the people buying this car I think they should be encouraged to demand something more exciting and life affirming than yet another samey, numb turbo rocket.

If you're driving GT3s and Paganis and P1s and LaFs regularly, a bland M3 lump is OK for a daily / chase / camera car etc. If it's really all you drive, the loss of the old NA BMW engines is a minor tragedy - that's what made M cars so wonderful, you drove a saloon with an engine that was as special and exciting as a supercar.

Plus the M3 daily of today is the used performance bargain / weekend toy of tomorrow, and none of the latest M crop appeal in that context, more's the pity.


Chris Harris replies:
Jeremy - I'm going to call you by your real name Mr.Laird because I think you often represent yourself as being 'in the trade' and people like us - journalists - don't really have the right to hide behind soubriquets.

Before presenting yourself as the arbiter of what all car enthusiasts should want in an everyday, fast saloon car, it might be best to drive the new M3. If you do and still think the engine is bland, it'll confirm that my opinion on the subject of what is usable, enjoyable and an acceptable loss in 'feel' in the face of ever more stringent emissions and safety regulations is very different to yours. Of course mine is just another opinion, as is yours, but If you'd like to openly discuss which of us better understands this end of the marketplace,and what buyers are actually looking for, then I'm happy to do so here. And admit my mistakes. But as far as I can recall, I have never edited a car magazine devoted to electric cars and hybrids. However, I have lived with pretty much every car in this class for tens of thousands of miles at a time.

Of course your blanket dismissal of people like me spending too much time in GT3s to be able to judge what someone might want from a single performance car is ludicrous, so I won't bother to explain it.

What I will reiterate is that torque is far more useful than outright power in a street car. And I think more absorbing for a daily driver over time. The new M3 has torque and too end. I ran an E92 M3 everyday, for 11,000 miles to confirm that'll had too little of the former. But I also drove a few Zondaghinis during that period, so according to your theory, I'm not qualified to state that I had to drive the buttons off it to stay ahead of turbodiesels and I just couldn't enjoy that amazing top end enough.

Fuel economy? Read again - I'm talking about range. Range is what matters to people who can afford a 60k car. Spending less time at horrid fuel stations. And that is sadly quite closely related to fuel economy. Again, my frequent exposure to Ferraris must mean that I don't quite understand the range issue on the E92.

Sorry if you think I've given you both barrels unfairly, but I don't think it's fair to jump chameleon-style between being forum punter and journalist when it suits you. And then to have pops from the sidelines .

The M3 is a cracker in my opinion. Anyone who thinks the powertrain is boring needs their head looking at. But that's just my opinion. What really matters is what owners think of the car. I hope to be one of those at some point. And I'll still drive the odd GT3.

Typed on my phone, so apologies for typos etc
Excellent.

Should be the end of this thread. He has interpreted his own column and made clear his love of the car. Don't agree? Fine (even though you haven't driven it) but no need to further interpret his words.
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      05-17-2014, 12:53 PM   #237
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thanks for posting this review. waiting for the video. he didn't mention how the car drifts. lol
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      05-17-2014, 01:20 PM   #238
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Haha, entertaining and well-stated forum reply from Harris.
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      05-17-2014, 01:22 PM   #239
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"Anyone who thinks the powertrain is boring needs their head looking at." Love that one.
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      05-17-2014, 01:36 PM   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by consolidated
From the Pistonheads forum, Harris's interesting, frank and sober reply to another journo poster. As a E90 M3 owner I believe he's spot on with regard to the outgoing V8 motor, love it but won't really miss it apart from the sound, and that's only be it has an Akra.

Quote:
cmoose said:
Perhaps. But I also think that perhaps the current car enthusiast journalistic crop forgets that the guy buying the M3/4 may not actually drive much or even anything else regularly. So while journos are routinely in something with a really extreme engine / getting their visceral fix and therefore think, OK for my daily this new M3 engine is bland but torquey and that's OK, for the people buying this car I think they should be encouraged to demand something more exciting and life affirming than yet another samey, numb turbo rocket.

If you're driving GT3s and Paganis and P1s and LaFs regularly, a bland M3 lump is OK for a daily / chase / camera car etc. If it's really all you drive, the loss of the old NA BMW engines is a minor tragedy - that's what made M cars so wonderful, you drove a saloon with an engine that was as special and exciting as a supercar.

Plus the M3 daily of today is the used performance bargain / weekend toy of tomorrow, and none of the latest M crop appeal in that context, more's the pity.


Chris Harris replies:
Jeremy - I'm going to call you by your real name Mr.Laird because I think you often represent yourself as being 'in the trade' and people like us - journalists - don't really have the right to hide behind soubriquets.

Before presenting yourself as the arbiter of what all car enthusiasts should want in an everyday, fast saloon car, it might be best to drive the new M3. If you do and still think the engine is bland, it'll confirm that my opinion on the subject of what is usable, enjoyable and an acceptable loss in 'feel' in the face of ever more stringent emissions and safety regulations is very different to yours. Of course mine is just another opinion, as is yours, but If you'd like to openly discuss which of us better understands this end of the marketplace,and what buyers are actually looking for, then I'm happy to do so here. And admit my mistakes. But as far as I can recall, I have never edited a car magazine devoted to electric cars and hybrids. However, I have lived with pretty much every car in this class for tens of thousands of miles at a time.

Of course your blanket dismissal of people like me spending too much time in GT3s to be able to judge what someone might want from a single performance car is ludicrous, so I won't bother to explain it.

What I will reiterate is that torque is far more useful than outright power in a street car. And I think more absorbing for a daily driver over time. The new M3 has torque and too end. I ran an E92 M3 everyday, for 11,000 miles to confirm that'll had too little of the former. But I also drove a few Zondaghinis during that period, so according to your theory, I'm not qualified to state that I had to drive the buttons off it to stay ahead of turbodiesels and I just couldn't enjoy that amazing top end enough.

Fuel economy? Read again - I'm talking about range. Range is what matters to people who can afford a 60k car. Spending less time at horrid fuel stations. And that is sadly quite closely related to fuel economy. Again, my frequent exposure to Ferraris must mean that I don't quite understand the range issue on the E92.

Sorry if you think I've given you both barrels unfairly, but I don't think it's fair to jump chameleon-style between being forum punter and journalist when it suits you. And then to have pops from the sidelines .

The M3 is a cracker in my opinion. Anyone who thinks the powertrain is boring needs their head looking at. But that's just my opinion. What really matters is what owners think of the car. I hope to be one of those at some point. And I'll still drive the odd GT3.

Typed on my phone, so apologies for typos etc
Looks like I'll have to spend more time over at Pistonheads. Seems like an epic battle between two fairly well spoken/written car enthusiasts.

I'll admit I was actually fairly compelled by cmoose, until Chris Harris rolled onto the scene for the smackdown.
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      05-17-2014, 02:08 PM   #241
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Still waiting to see what C63 AMG will bring to the table. If they fix the trans and keep that V8 sound with massive HP and a massive torque when you combine V8 and turbo. I think they might bring something special this time. I can always go for a second year production m3 and pay much less and not worry about first year issues. Not too eager to throw all that cash to get the second best. Let them earn my cash just like I did to get it.
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      05-17-2014, 02:11 PM   #242
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That was a VERY good find

-He hopes to own a F8x, to those who figured that was what really counts

-Anyone that thinks the S55 is boring, needs their heads examined... That's a classic



BTW, the Jeremy Laid dude is editor of green car magazine iCAR...

Last edited by Boss330; 05-17-2014 at 02:36 PM.
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