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08-22-2013, 04:46 AM | #133 | |
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We should always be forward thinking; the clutch and combustion engine will one day disappear and the world will have vehicles running on eerily silent electric engines and single speed transmissions. I guess my experience as a former engineer has taught me to embrace technology and better processes. Logically, it's the way to progress.
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08-22-2013, 05:07 AM | #134 |
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I can't believe how many people, "applaud Porsche," for not offering a 6MT on the GT3. Since when is less choice a good thing for consumers? I don't believe Porsche did this to make a statement. I think they simply wanted the most technologically advanced piece of equipment in their top end car. Why spend million (yes millions) of dollars designing and certifying a transmission on a low production car that less than 10% of your customers would buy? It's a financial decision, plain and simple.
Secondly, why do auto/DCT owners always feel that us 6MT enthusiasts simply need to be "educated" on the benefits of new transmission options in cars today? It's condescending to assume we've never driven a car with said transmission, because if we did, how could we ever decide a 6MT was better? Maybe the correct approach is that YOU feel satisfied with the third pedal missing, but try to understand that no amount of speed, technology, etc. will ever make up for the loss of tactile sensation I get from throwing a car into a gear and stomping on the clutch pedal (makes me want to drive right now, actually). Lastly, an argument can be made that technology is always improving and that dinosaurs like me are a dying breed. Frankly, I don't give a crap. I still order cars without navigation. I'm interested in a sense of connectedness more than a good stereo, comfort, or anything else. As long as there are people like me around, there will always be a need for the 6MT. |
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08-22-2013, 05:33 AM | #135 | |
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I don't drive any appreciable distances towards or across the city, unless I'm driving at night. Otherwise, I drive the automatic beater. |
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08-22-2013, 06:41 AM | #137 | |
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I'm glad the M3 doesn't have auto because its bad for the car but DCT is the best if both worlds even though it costs more than 5k $.
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08-22-2013, 07:04 AM | #138 |
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Saw the Sedan M3 yesterday rolling out of the Plant towards to the BMW Welt. Unfortunately he was gone until I unlocked my iPhone to take a Photo :/
The sound in real was good, i liked it a lot. The car was black with camo bottom. Excited to see it again |
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08-22-2013, 07:27 AM | #139 | |
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If I do want an automatic and yes DCT is good option but comparing DCT or manual is just not the same for not racing. Not talking about taking the car to the track once a year lol. I personally will always get the manual and never DCT unless I race professionally. One of the things that I was turn off by the C63.
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08-22-2013, 07:45 AM | #140 |
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I doubt I will ever go back to a manual transmission, but I don't necessarily demand DCT. As long as the car lets me select the gear ratios via paddles, I will consider it. But, yes, it has to get the job done quickly, or you lose much of the benefit of removing manual clutch operation from the process in the first place.
So I would be willing to give the the ZF8 or other similar state of the art transmissions a try, such as Mercedes MCT 7 Speed. But, although I have not driven a Corvette, the fact that they carried over the tired old-school Hydramatic to the shiny new model is a real downer. It's killing my buzz from this C7 high that everyone seems to be riding. |
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08-22-2013, 08:32 AM | #141 | |
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The feel of a DCT is not in the same universe as a manual, and I defy anyone to shift through the gears with a manual, redline every gear, and then conclude that a DCT is more fun. I am under the impression that many people who feel as if DCT is more fun have not experienced the joy of being responsible for gear selection, and not when the computer tells you it approves your selection of gear, OR have no clue how to drive stick / lack the experience of unlocking the full potential of driving stick. A DCT is more fun than a conventional aggressive automatic transmission, but it differs in that it gives you the option to digitally shift gears. This classification is meaningless when considering the better of the two or the more preferred of the two. A DCT is faster and more fuel efficient than a manual, but this is not indicative of it being more enjoyable to drive. Getting better lap times and corner exit / entry speed may be important for the .3 percent of people that track their beasts, but it, in no foreseeable way, elicits more excitement or driver involvement than a manual. You mention formula 1… you are clearly missing the goal of F1, which is lap times, not driver enjoyment. We manual drivers don’t drive around “worrying” about clutch pedal, as we know how to drive/shift. Your contention merely states that “just because I can control the gear shifts, it is just as fun as manual”. The digital feeling of flipping a paddle in, no way, is more tactile than shifting a manual, nor is it more fun. It does not give feedback, it is not visceral, and not more enjoyable. It does not elicit more driver involvement, and only shifts gears based on your input, as well as the computer’s approval. |
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08-22-2013, 08:54 AM | #143 |
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I really hope its false, but the pictures in the OP can't prove it.
If you recall, there was also a prototype GT3 with a MT. There were pics and videos as well. I really hope there is a MT though
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08-22-2013, 09:12 AM | #144 | |
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Well guys, might as well toss out the good old McLaren F1, F50, Ferrari GTO, GT40 and others...... old tech farts surely aren't as fun as a GTR, MP4, or 458...
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08-22-2013, 09:14 AM | #145 | |
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Who gave you the too sweet kool-aid? A DCT can shift automaticaly. Its an automatic. It doesnt have a torque converter, but its def an automatic transmission. And the bold
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08-22-2013, 09:15 AM | #146 |
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Nothing is 100% guaranteed until we have official specs, sure.
My understanding in the case with the GT3 is that prevailing belief (perhaps even word from Porsche) was always that they were testing both in order to determine which one (and only one) would make production. For BMW, although there has even been comments from officials that they put the MT in the M5 only as a nod to pressure from the US market, they are absolutely still committed to manual transmissions for the current generation of vehicles at least. We will see what happens when the G generation of cars hits in a few years time, starting with the new 5 (7 hasn't had a manual for quite some time now). We probably won't lose the MT from every single model in one generation, but in all liklihood it will start with the 5 first when it does start. Already the 550 has been hit, in fact. Smaller M cars will probably be the last to be effected - M4, M3, M2. |
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08-22-2013, 09:27 AM | #147 |
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It makes all the sense in the world that Porsche's new GT3 is PDK only as the emphasis is the utmost performance possible for that particular model. If a potential owner's priority is not the pinnacle of performance than a manual transmission can be had in a lesser model. This is an example of German logic so I wouldn't be surprised if the M4 is offered DCT only.
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08-22-2013, 09:30 AM | #148 | |
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I forgot to reference this yesterday in the original article. As recently as a year ago, BMW M's head of engineering Albert Biermann made this statement: "The M3 needs to have a stick shift. It will always have a stick shift." [full statement] While I think the M3 may one day (in future generations) lose stick shift, if Biermann is making this statement with the F80 M3 / F82 M4 development already well underway (by the time of the statement), I'd think that's a pretty solid statement we can bank on... in addition to all the other evidence.
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08-22-2013, 09:39 AM | #150 | |
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I remember their quotes about not having M trucks. Well we see where that has gotten us. The only thing that matters to me is MT, RWD, and the stable power at the top of the rev range. I had a N54 335i, and the drop in power after 6000 annoyed the hell out of me. That should NOT be a characteristic of an M.
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08-22-2013, 09:45 AM | #151 | |
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In any case, there will be stick shift manual for the upcoming M3/M4, no questions.
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08-22-2013, 09:54 AM | #153 |
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08-22-2013, 10:11 AM | #154 | |
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Agree..let's not forget that a lot of us have tried both DCT and MT and had an open mind before we bought and made a decision...no right or wrong answer as to what gives a person a certain subjective feeling. Also, people shouldn't automatically assume that BMW's product people/culture (which can at times be way over-engineering focused) knows what's best for you or what your "right" emotional reaction with regard to a certain innovation. eg, "active sound"...no one could probably tell the difference as far as sound waves are concerned, but just knowing that's the case is an issue for a lot of people and doesn't make it feel right.
Also for the guys who mentioned stuff about how great auto/DCT is during hours and hours of bumper to bumper traffic, If I were faced with that prospect, forget about the transmission, I'd just be outright miserable and focus on a more convenient home location vs the transmission in my car. Quote:
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