CCB or aftermarket Brembo brakes?

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

The crack team on this board is so obsessed with rotor diameter that they neglected to investigate rotor thickness, a key component in rotor longevity. Another great reason the CCB will last 10x as long as a BMW steel rotor, which we have now determined to be about as strong as Reynolds wrap.

Again utter nonsense. If used with no severe duty it is almost certain the CSiC system will outlast the conventional system, but under track conditions, past directly relevant experience from many users tells us the exact opposite.

Even for the case of light street driving the economics just don't make sense.

Unfortunately, there is nothing other than looks/emotion which can justify the cost of this option. I like the point of view that it is 10% of the cost of the car itself... Crazy, even given all of us appreciate a bit of bling and race technology on our cars.

[swamp2]

Just as previously described, no surprise that the disc itself ("friction ring") is made larger for the same application. Its reduced thermal mass if it were chosen to be exactly the same size as the cast iron system would exhibit too much penalty in this key element of brake system performance.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I'd like to see that article.

It is certainly understood that grip force varies with slip and is maximized with some level of slip (not under lockup and not under light braking). That being said I would find it quite surprising if the tire-road contact patch can or does have any "awareness" of the pad-rotor contact. Specifically let's consider the absense of fade conditions. With either type of brake system it is always possible to obtain all braking conditions, light/rolling, lockup and ideal (i.e. some very limited lockup - slip).

Now if we want to dive into a great amount of detail during the actual achievement of slip under ideal braking, there may be some element of the thermal performance of a CSiC that provide some slightly improved dynamic modulation capability but that too is going to be limited by the ABS software more so than by the operator.

Any effect here is thus extremely minimal and more academic if it even exists.

From what I remember, the key message was that a brake system does not necessarily exploit the full grip potential of the tires before lock-up even if it is able to lock the wheels. This is even more true as heat is introduced in the system. A good example is "brake fade" tests that some magazines do/used to do (thinking R&T). After repetitive braking runs, the car needs a longer distance to stop, yet one could still lock the wheels by squeezing the brakes very hard.

It does not automatically mean that CCB will brake in a shorter distance than the iron rotors. If the iron rotor system is already designed with the capability of maximizing the available grip of the tires in all conditions, then the CCBs won't alter the braking distances in any of those conditions.

The latter has been my point all along, I believe the irons will be plenty sufficient for my use.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I'd like to see scientific and statistical data that support this ///Marketing point of view!

Agree on data to back this claim

Here is what BMW says about cold brakes and cold tires:

4.1.1. Cold brake and cold tires
The spontaneously greater braking effect can reduce the stopping distance slightly depending on the situation, caused by the spontaneously higher friction at the start of braking and the resulting quicker heating-up of the tires.

Sounds reasonable, but even BMW are low key on the advantage and use wording such as "slightly" and "depending on the situation". So most likely of a academic interest more than a real world noticeable difference...

[Tonymiabmw]

Mod please sticky this thread so we don't have another CCB thread. It's really informative.

[swamp2]

If you want a really strong debate and discussion on CSiC brakes google around on m3post.com and my handle... The topics come and go. Luckily this one is not quite as repetive, divisive or annoying as power vs. torque...

[gee-m-w]

People have to realize M stands for Maintenance. High performance means low replacement interval. CiSC is one of those breakthrough materials that is both more performant and has a longer service interval. The brakes become even cheaper when you realize all you will need to do is replace pads over the entire long life you own the car. You won't need 5 major brake jobs in 5 years, or a wholesale $5k upgrade to a proper BBK.

Yeah it is expensive but we already established BMW is charging a large premium over other 3.0L 400+ HP cars with motorsports inspired performance parts. You only need to pay the invoice price on the brakes, not the retail price.

[KASM3]

I'm Getting the M4.
Lurking the forums, a lot of you are going CCB or talking of a BBK change on day 1 of f8x purchase. Do we really believe the standard brakes are going to be so inferior to an aftermarket BBK?

Other than the awful blue calipers, on paper, these brakes seem solid. Definitely not the weak link the current brakes are on the e9x. Anyone with official info on these brakes? I know you guys are connected.

[parky1215]

I think they are pretty similar to f30's m performance brake kit. So looking for review of that set would be good starting place to get more info on m3's standard brake.

[CanAutM3]

Why another thread

[Benjamin]

Proof is in the pudding, once some guys get the cars, change out the pads and fluid and they still suck then its time to complain. JMHO

[SD ///M4]

Some people mod just to mod, apparently thinking that their knowledge of BBKs exceeds that of the entire BMW engineering staff.

A BBK for a car driven solely on the street is just a huge waste of money. Do they really help you stop that much better at the stop sign at the end of your block?

"I buy BMWs because they're the best engineered cars in the world. Now let me replace the wheels, brakes, shock/springs/struts, intake, exhaust, and anything else that someone sells aftermarket because I can make my car perform better than the car BMW engineers spent years developing."

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

People have to realize M stands for Maintenance. High performance means low replacement interval. CiSC is one of those breakthrough materials that is both more performant and has a longer service interval. The brakes become even cheaper when you realize all you will need to do is replace pads over the entire long life you own the car. You won't need 5 major brake jobs in 5 years, or a wholesale $5k upgrade to a proper BBK.

Yeah it is expensive but we already established BMW is charging a large premium over other 3.0L 400+ HP cars with motorsports inspired performance parts. You only need to pay the invoice price on the brakes, not the retail price.

Wow, keep up the nonsense.

Also M often stands for marketing, I'd say BMW M cars are generally quite reliable. I'm sure statistics would back up this general observation.

CSiC brakes do not provide better performance and ONLY better life when kept off of the track. A you can't claim 5 "major" brake jobs in 5 years for regular brakes unless tracking the car. Try to keep your comparisons "apples to apples".

And lastly how can folks pay "invoice" on a factory option such as brakes? They can't. Even when the parts will be available they will cost more as parts than the factory option precisely to prohibit folks from trying to save some bucks.

[ZGM3]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I replaced my fronts twice, the second time mid season this summer. So I used two sets over 5 years (the ones on the car only have half a season on them and are still in perfect shape).

The rears need to be replaced in the spring before the track season starts. They are still good enough for winter DD but no longer suitable for track use. They are still the original discs, so they will have lasted 5½ track seasons and almost 6 years.

Just wondering how many sets of pads did you go thru for each set of rotors?
Wondering more about longevity not cost.

Sometimes dealers claim that the rotors need to be changed whenever the pads needs replacing, just wondering what your stock BMW pad and rotor life was like.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ZGM3

Just wondering how many sets of pads did you go thru for each set of rotors?
Wondering more about longevity not cost.

I go through between 2 and 3 sets of front and between 1 and 1½ sets of rear track pads per season. I am on my second set of street pads (off track season) after 5½ years of ownership and 60k miles.

Originally Posted by ZGM3

Sometimes dealers claim that the rotors need to be changed whenever the pads needs replacing, just wondering what your stock BMW pad and rotor life was like.

This is total stealer bullshit. Discs last much longer than pads, the pads are the ones with the "sacrificial" material.

This reminds me of when I brought my E46 in for service during its first summer. The dealer said that my brakes were 80% worn and needed replacing, pads and discs front and rear for some $2500. I replied that if they are 80% worn, that means that they still have $500 worth of life in them and will pass on their recommendation. I actually never needed to replace the rear rotors in the whole 7 years I owned the car, yet the dealer wanted to change them after less than one year .

[gee-m-w]

Originally Posted by swamp2

And lastly how can folks pay "invoice" on a factory option such as brakes? They can't. Even when the parts will be available they will cost more as parts than the factory option precisely to prohibit folks from trying to save some bucks.

I don't know how you purchase cars, but I add the invoice price of the base car to the invoice price of the options. Then I add in dealer profit. When I bought my Audi it was $1000 over and I got a $1000 discount for having a BMW registered ("conquest cash" or something). This time around I suppose I'll get a BMW CCA discount.

It makes sense to talk about the retail price of Sirius since it's only $500. It doesn't make sense to think this option is $8100 when it's actually $6900. Unless you are the big baller buying the launch car at MSRP.

[gee-m-w]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I go through between 2 and 3 sets of front and between 1 and 1½ sets of rear track pads per season. I am on my second set of street pads (off track season) after 5½ years of ownership and 60k miles.

This is total stealer bullshit. Discs last much longer than pads, the pads are the ones with the "sacrificial" material.

This reminds me of when I brought my E46 in for service during its first summer. The dealer said that my brakes were 80% worn and needed replacing, pads and discs front and rear for some $2500. I replied that if they are 80% worn, that means that they still have $500 worth of life in them and will pass on their recommendation. I actually never needed to replace the rear rotors in the whole 7 years I owned the car, yet the dealer wanted to change them after less than one year .

What pad are you running? Ever consider switching to a Pagid Yellow RS29 or RS19? They should last you a whole season.

+1 to the dealers being slimy with warranty work. Best to take the car in once a year to an independent BMW shop and tell them what you want done. Honestly not much needs to be done when the car has under 50k miles. Brake fluid and engine oil and filters.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

What pad are you running? Ever consider switching to a Pagid Yellow RS29 or RS19? They should last you a whole season.

I have considered the Pagids. They are more than twice the cost but don't last twice as long. Further, they squeal like hell on the street to the point of being un-usable for the DD. The PF08 are noisy, but bearable in DD use.

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

+1 to the dealers being slimy with warranty work. Best to take the car in once a year to an independent BMW shop and tell them what you want done. Honestly not much needs to be done when the car has under 50k miles. Brake fluid and engine oil and filters.

Brakes were not covered under warranty on my E46, the money would have come out of my pocket. If it would have been on an extended maintenance program, I would have had the dealer change the discs if he wanted to too, I am not stupid . And why would you want to bring your car in an independant shop if it covered under warranty . BTW, I do brakes myself.

[gee-m-w]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I have considered the Pagids. They are more than twice the cost but don't last twice as long. Further, they squeal like hell on the street to the point of being un-usable for the DD. The PF08 are noisy, but bearable in DD use.



Brakes were not covered under warranty on my E46, the money would have come out of my pocket. If it would have been on an extended maintenance program, I would have had the dealer change the discs if he wanted to too, I am not stupid . And why would you want to bring your car in an independant shop if it covered under warranty . BTW, I do brakes myself.

The Pagids do make a lot of noise on the OEM BMW rotor. I got really lucky on the AP Racing slotted BBK and they make no street noise. Just an occasional "brick dragging across a sidewalk" sound coming to a stop. They are that abrasive. I am really hard on brakes and I get over 12 track days from RS19 Yellow.

Regarding your second point, because track maintenance and readiness is work not covered under warranty?

New:


12 track days:

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

I don't know how you purchase cars, but I add the invoice price of the base car to the invoice price of the options. Then I add in dealer profit. When I bought my Audi it was $1000 over and I got a $1000 discount for having a BMW registered ("conquest cash" or something). This time around I suppose I'll get a BMW CCA discount.

It makes sense to talk about the retail price of Sirius since it's only $500. It doesn't make sense to think this option is $8100 when it's actually $6900. Unless you are the big baller buying the launch car at MSRP.

I've bought one new car in the last 20 years, my current M3 and I was so excited to have it ASAP I paid sticker. No way around that at the time. Similarly there will likely be no way around this on the new cars for some considerable time after launch.

Anyway, it does not matter if the CSiC brakes are $8k or $5k there are not worth it.

[consolidated]

For the cost of this brake upgrade alone one could buy a spec miata. Let me tell you, those things are FUN, no joke.

So M3 w/CCB or M3 w/racecar, same $. Flat tow it with your M3 or wife's SUV.

I'm still thinking of ordering them, only because I want them badly...more pistons, pie plates, sculpted front caliper and preferable color.

Sports car, want > need.

[Tonymiabmw]

Miata lol