M4 vs 911 base (991.2)

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by W///

I've been playing with the configurator all weekend and have done more research on a 991.1 Carrera S too, and what I'm learning is that while the GT cars hold their values like crazy, the Carreras really don't. Not unusual to see 2013 991 C2S with only 10k miles going for mid 70s.

From what I'm reading, the first 2 years of ownership, you can easily lose $10k/year, which is a tough pill to swallow for me considering I wouldn't be leasing.

Having said that, I look forward to seeing what the tuners will do with this car. Not that I'm too interested in risking the warranty of a $100k car.

Did you buy your Ms new? I lost almost 25k on an E92 M3 coupe after less than 2 years. A couple people I know who recently upgraded to 911s from M4s lost 30k in less than 2 years of ownership on them. Cars were 80k new or more and trade ins were in the 50s.
The 911s have always tended to hold value well (10k is nothing on a 100-150k car), but the GT cars only go up in value and obviously anything air cooled is doing the same. Even a clean 996 turbo goes for 50k almost 20 years later and these cars were 110-120k when new. 997 turbo prices are rising too given you can't buy new turbos with manuals. That plays a big part too.

[W///]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

Did you buy your Ms new? I lost almost 25k on an E92 M3 coupe after less than 2 years. A couple people I know who recently upgraded to 911s from M4s lost 30k in less than 2 years of ownership on them. Cars were 80k new or more and trade ins were in the 50s.
The 911s have always tended to hold value well (10k is nothing on a 100-150k car), but the GT cars only go up in value and obviously anything air cooled is doing the same. Even a clean 996 turbo goes for 50k almost 20 years later and these cars were 110-120k when new. 997 turbo prices are rising too given you can't buy new turbos with manuals. That plays a big part too.

Nope, have always bought used. We all know if you trade it in, you're going to take a bath on these cars. Plus I'm also taking into consideration that while the MSRP of the F80 build would be $79k, I can promise you I won't be paying anywhere near that. It's going to be a lose lose proposition when you ditch a car after 2 years aka the biggest depreciation, regardless of brands unfortunately

Now just to be clear, I'm not talking about a GT car (wish I was though) or a Turbo (the real one). If I looked at getting a 991.2, it would almost certainly have to be a base, and we all know those do not hold their value. It's not like these are limited production cars.

Having said all this, I think the best value right now might be a 991.1 C2S, but the new improvements to the 991.2 sure makes it tempting. Different beats for sure, but I've always thought 911 with turbos are cool.

We'll see, I probably have no business looking at cars this expensive

[M4 LF]

Originally Posted by dgp

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ra-test-review

Base 991.2 does 0-60 in 3.4s, 11.9@118mph quarter, 1.06g and 70-0 braking in 135ft! Impressive for base model with 370hp!

Wow, 0-60 in 3.4!

I don't need rear seats. I don't plan on tracking the car just using it as a daily driver. So I can pretty much eliminate all the sports options with the exception of maybe the sport exhaust. Msrp should come in around 105k. In two years I should be able to get it for about 10% off.

I'll say I may have I found my M4 replacement.

[W///]

Originally Posted by M4 LF

Wow, 0-60 in 3.4!

I don't need rear seats. I don't plan on tracking the car just using it as a daily driver. So I can pretty much eliminate all the sports options with the exception of maybe the sport exhaust. Msrp should come in around 105k. In two years I should be able to get it for about 10% off.

I'll say I may have I found my M4 replacement.

It would be a great choice. I really enjoyed the test drive, although I can't decide on whether to go with .1 or .2

[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

Did you buy your Ms new? I lost almost 25k on an E92 M3 coupe after less than 2 years. A couple people I know who recently upgraded to 911s from M4s lost 30k in less than 2 years of ownership on them. Cars were 80k new or more and trade ins were in the 50s.
The 911s have always tended to hold value well (10k is nothing on a 100-150k car), but the GT cars only go up in value and obviously anything air cooled is doing the same. Even a clean 996 turbo goes for 50k almost 20 years later and these cars were 110-120k when new. 997 turbo prices are rising too given you can't buy new turbos with manuals. That plays a big part too.

While I agree that the 996TT have bottomed out at a very good number and 997TT have actually crept up, I am seeing 2013 non GT 991.1S versioned 911's going for mid $70's with 10-15K miles on them. These cars stickered for $115K+. The only way to look at stuff like this objectively is to see what % of its original value are they selling for. Besides launch 2012 991's that had insane residuals, Porsche lease rates are average at best. That is the real indicator of how well (or not) they maintain their values.

I just did the Auto Trade Kelly Blue Book Instant Cash offer thing with my M4. My M4 is nine months old, has 5k miles on it and stickered for right at $70K. I bought it for $66.5K. Instant Cash Offer is $63,077. $66.5K - $63K = $3,423/9 = driving a brand new M4 for $380/month. If I had to pay taxes of 6% on the $66.5K, my monthly expense to drive it would still only be $823/month. I think that is pretty good. Once again, if you load these types of cars up with options and then sell them in the first couple years, chances are very good that you will lose your ass.

Now that I have a daily driver truck, I'm looking at perhaps selling the M4 and getting into another Porsche which is my reason for doing the KBB Instant Cash thing to try to get some sort of baseline for what I would likely get on a trade in for the M4. For some reason, I personally find the 981 BoxsterS/GTS more appealing than the non GT'd version 911s...irrespective of the greater performance/panache/etc. of the 991.1 and 991.2 911's

[48Laws]

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

Being a BMW homer I think I have owned 9 or so, and on my second Porsche first was a 991S, and now a GT3. If you have the option Porsche hands down, and honestly I'm not a big fan of the HP wars because most can't drive these cars to full capability.

The Porsche drive, and feel is exceptional. If you don't need the room go Porsche, and if you need the room M4. A 991.2 will be fine as a DD if that's your purpose it's very capable. Good luck with your selection.

And you'll score 28 mpg which is insane.

[blschaefer1]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

Did you buy your Ms new? I lost almost 25k on an E92 M3 coupe after less than 2 years. A couple people I know who recently upgraded to 911s from M4s lost 30k in less than 2 years of ownership on them. Cars were 80k new or more and trade ins were in the 50s.
The 911s have always tended to hold value well (10k is nothing on a 100-150k car), but the GT cars only go up in value and obviously anything air cooled is doing the same. Even a clean 996 turbo goes for 50k almost 20 years later and these cars were 110-120k when new. 997 turbo prices are rising too given you can't buy new turbos with manuals. That plays a big part too.

While I agree that the GT P-cars hold their value, I disagree that standard models (991 included) hold value better than their counterparts, M cars in particular. Part of the issue is the manner in which Porsche nickel and dimes you for every option. It's very difficult to capture much residual value for these options at time of resale or trade in.

My current 2014 991.1 C2S is rather highly optioned (PDK, S-PASM, PSE, Sport Chrono, Aero Kit, Parking Sensors, Ventilated Seats, etc.) and carried an MSRP of $128k. I'd be looking at a low $70k trade, and possibly mid-high $70k on a private party sale. And it is pristine with less than 5k miles. I've had it less than two years, and it is three model years old now. That's 40+% depreciation in that time. Thankfully I paid far less than sticker.

I would anticipate my new M4 to be at approx. 30% depreciation from MSRP in that timeframe, perhaps better.

While KBB may not be a perfect data point, it substantiates the above.

[DC-T]

depends on you mate

[fusionchicken]

wow the 991.2 base trapping 118mph surprised me

3.4 to 60mph is ridiculous as well

[W///]

Originally Posted by blschaefer1

While I agree that the GT P-cars hold their value, I disagree that standard models (991 included) hold value better than their counterparts, M cars in particular. Part of the issue is the manner in which Porsche nickel and dimes you for every option. It's very difficult to capture much residual value for these options at time of resale or trade in.

My current 2014 991.1 C2S is rather highly optioned (PDK, S-PASM, PSE, Sport Chrono, Aero Kit, Parking Sensors, Ventilated Seats, etc.) and carried an MSRP of $128k. I'd be looking at a low $70k trade, and possibly mid-high $70k on a private party sale. And it is pristine with less than 5k miles. I've had it less than two years, and it is three model years old now. That's 40+% depreciation in that time. Thankfully I paid far less than sticker.

I would anticipate my new M4 to be at approx. 30% depreciation from MSRP in that timeframe, perhaps better.

While KBB may not be a perfect data point, it substantiates the above.

That's more or less what I'm seeing on Autotrader, but probably more low 80s for a car like yours. The problem is that 7MT are not THAT plentiful and it seems like all of them are painted black (I would like red, yellow or blue).

So yea, that's why a 991.2 Carrera scares me. I cannot stomach losing that kind of money, when my buddy has a GT4 that he bought for around the same price as a stripper 991.2 base.

[blschaefer1]

Originally Posted by W///

That's more or less what I'm seeing on Autotrader, but probably more low 80s for a car like yours. The problem is that 7MT are not THAT plentiful and it seems like all of them are painted black (I would like red, yellow or blue).

So yea, that's why a 991.2 Carrera scares me. I cannot stomach losing that kind of money, when my buddy has a GT4 that he bought for around the same price as a stripper 991.2 base.

Agreed, my car would likely go for low-mid 80's as a CPO.

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by M4 LF

Wow, 0-60 in 3.4!

I don't need rear seats. I don't plan on tracking the car just using it as a daily driver. So I can pretty much eliminate all the sports options with the exception of maybe the sport exhaust. Msrp should come in around 105k. In two years I should be able to get it for about 10% off.

I'll say I may have I found my M4 replacement.

As I have said, the 991.2 base is as fast as an outgoing S if not faster. The 991.2 S is going to trap 122-123 mph. These car are very, very quick especially when you consider the minimal HP they have. Track times have also proven to be incredibly quick too where these cars truly shine (in the turns).

[DieGrüneHölle]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

As I have said, the 991.2 base is as fast as an outgoing S if not faster. The 991.2 S is going to trap 122-123 mph. These car are very, very quick especially when you consider the minimal HP they have. Track times have also proven to be incredibly quick too where these cars truly shine (in the turns).

...and Cobb Accessport coming soon, none of this bench flash crap.

[M4 LF]

Originally Posted by W///

It would be a great choice. I really enjoyed the test drive, although I can't decide on whether to go with .1 or .2

I never take my cars to the track. So prior to Porsche going turbo on their base 911 I never seriously considered them. I just didn't think it was as fun. Having an M4 made that even clearer to me. The M4 is such a blast around town. So my preference is definitely toward the .2. But I can understand the appeal of a NA P car.

Originally Posted by blschaefer1

I would anticipate my new M4 to be at approx. 30% depreciation from MSRP in that timeframe, perhaps better.

Are you're getting rid of your 911 for an M4? Would you share your experience on what you like and dislike about your 911?

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

As I have said, the 991.2 base is as fast as an outgoing S if not faster. The 991.2 S is going to trap 122-123 mph. These car are very, very quick especially when you consider the minimal HP they have. Track times have also proven to be incredibly quick too where these cars truly shine (in the turns).

Yes that's crazy that it's faster than the .1 S. Can't wait for a comparison.

[nicknaz]

OP, I personally struggle with the base 911 pricing and the depreciation. I'd stand in line for a GT4 and hope more allocations come out

another good option is to get a 997.1 TT on the used market. It seems like after a while the turbos don't really depreciate too much more. 996.1 TT has been hovering in the low $40k range for some time now.

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by M4 LF

I never take my cars to the track. So prior to Porsche going turbo on their base 911 I never seriously considered them. I just didn't think it was as fun. Having an M4 made that even clearer to me. The M4 is such a blast around town. So my preference is definitely toward the .2. But I can understand the appeal of a NA P car.



Are you're getting rid of your 911 for an M4? Would you share your experience on what you like and dislike about your 911?



Yes that's crazy that it's faster than the .1 S. Can't wait for a comparison.

Huge difference between the 991.1 and 991.1S. Torque is very good and power is much better though the 991.1 was still a quick car (113 mph trap with 7mt and likely 115 with PDK isn't slow by any means).
The 0-100 of the 991.2 base is exactly the same as the 991.1S. Trap speed is about the same too, just that it has 30 less hp. Impressive either way.
This is the first time I've seen a viable case for the base. Otherwise I would say always an S or up.
At the same time, there is still something magical about the NA car and hard to deny NA just is scintillating in every way.

[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by Motorsportenterprise

Huge difference between the 991.1 and 991.1S. Torque is very good and power is much better though the 991.1 was still a quick car (113 mph trap with 7mt and likely 115 with PDK isn't slow by any means).
The 0-100 of the 991.2 base is exactly the same as the 991.1S. Trap speed is about the same too, just that it has 30 less hp. Impressive either way.
This is the first time I've seen a viable case for the base. Otherwise I would say always an S or up.
At the same time, there is still something magical about the NA car and hard to deny NA just is scintillating in every way.

This +1.......as many FI cars that I have owned, I still find the NA cars power delivery more appealing

[dgp]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

This +1.......as many FI cars that I have owned, I still find the NA cars power delivery more appealing

911.2 is a lot quicker than 911.1 S based on car and driver's tests (0-60 in 3.4s vs 4.0 for 911.1 S and 0-100 in 8.5 for 911.2 vs. 911.1S 9.3s). Both were PDK versions, in fact Car and Driver noted 911.2 acceleration was roughly identical to 911.1 GTS

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...e-specs-page-4

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...e-specs-page-5

[W///]

Originally Posted by dgp

911.2 is a lot quicker than 911.1 S based on car and driver's tests (0-60 in 3.4s vs 4.0 for 911.1 S and 0-100 in 8.5 for 911.2 vs. 911.1S 9.3s). Both were PDK versions, in fact Car and Driver noted 911.2 acceleration was roughly identical to 911.1 GTS

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...e-specs-page-4

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...e-specs-page-5

And this is before the tuners even get their hands on this thing. COBB has already started their testing. Considering the base and S have the same engine (different turbos), the base might be the bargain.

I'm just a little scared of the depreciation.

[blschaefer1]

Originally Posted by M4 LF

Are you're getting rid of your 911 for an M4? Would you share your experience on what you like and dislike about your 911?

Yes. I currently have both a 2014 991 C2S and a recently aquired 2016 M4. I posted a quick comparison on page two of this thread.

[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by dgp

911.2 is a lot quicker than 911.1 S based on car and driver's tests (0-60 in 3.4s vs 4.0 for 911.1 S and 0-100 in 8.5 for 911.2 vs. 911.1S 9.3s). Both were PDK versions, in fact Car and Driver noted 911.2 acceleration was roughly identical to 911.1 GTS

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...e-specs-page-4

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...e-specs-page-5

fully understand that....faster does not = most appealing to everyone

I already stated that even the 981S is more appealing to me irrespective of inferior power/panache etc.

[M4 LF]

Originally Posted by blschaefer1

Yes. I currently have both a 2014 991 C2S and a recently aquired 2016 M4. I posted a quick comparison on page two of this thread.

Great comparison thanks! I actually read it a couple weeks ago but didn't make the connection that it was written by you, must be old age. Thank you for sharing.

You definitely make a great point about certain compromises when owning a small sports car like luggage space and ride comfort. When I had my Corvettes, two of the things that I hate the most were the rough riding sports suspension and the hot cabin get due to the transmission being so close to your seats. I also didn't like how the front would scrape half the time when I come in and out of the driveway. The M4 feels like a luxury sedan in comparison. Never once have I scape anything in one year of ownership. The ride is super smooth should I choose with the adjustable suspension.