Cost to track: Porsche vs BMW, chime in if you’ve upgraded

[adc]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

I take Shadow's comment as mid-engined P-cars like to steer to too well. Still in my fairly early professional career I have not had a luxury of sitting behind one of those wheels. so I have to guess from my experience with Miata (sorry lol) that steers too well.

F8x is pretty much a drift car. It's stable and controllable while it's on sideway. Car itself has negative feedback to balance the oversteer. To me it's impossible to spin in this car unless I run out of pavement or step on oil, or perhaps car is race-built and tires will store so much potential energy while gripping. It's extremely easy to catch oversteer at single countersteer, and also the edge of traction circle is very generous that enables some barbaric trail braking diving into corners.

While Miata is amazing how it handles and gives so much great joy, the edge of traction circle is very narrow and car takes only tiny input to cross the limit. Car's oversteer rotation is very quick and it's much harder to counter at one try. Also sideway is not controllable. It wants to snap and it has to be corrected ASAP or I run out of pavement very quick. It's manageble on street tires but only mostly for fun, I don't think it will be very easy to drive it on the egde- especially with stickier tires, and scary as hell at high speed (car is not built for high speed). I need to get back to Miata and try trailbraking like what I was able to do with F8x, it will be a challenge that might kill me.

Just a poor man's guess how perhaps it sounds like try drving P-cars at their limit.

Back on the subject, we aren't pro drivers living to race so what makes one happy would be what matters, and I would love to drive all of those cars regardless.

I can attest to the fact that you can definitely spin the F8x both in the dry and in the wet. I was doing 90mph in the rain at VIR when it snapped completely sideways. The longest 3-4 seconds of my life.

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by adc

I can attest to the fact that you can definitely spin the F8x both in the dry and in the wet. I was doing 90mph in the rain at VIR when it snapped completely sideways. The longest 3-4 seconds of my life.

Good point, I forgot about the wet condition! In wet rotation can be too quick for the limited steering angle to catch up. Two years ago I ended up in a ditch in my Miata on icy road at 40mph and before I could do anything car was already 90deg sideway. I still think I would never spin in F8x with enough dry pavement + no oil + no dirt + no debris + no punctured tires by somebody's garage door opener clip .

BTW that's another great story that you and your car survived that 90mph slide in rain! Linear increase of sideway speed comes with exponential increase of fear for sure.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

.

While Miata is amazing how it handles and gives so much great joy, the edge of traction circle is very narrow and car takes only tiny input to cross the limit. Car's oversteer rotation is very quick and it's much harder to counter at one try. Also sideway is not controllable. It wants to snap and it has to be corrected ASAP or I run out of pavement very quick. It's manageble on street tires but only mostly for fun, I don't think it will be very easy to drive it on the egde- especially with stickier tires, and scary as hell at high speed (car is not built for high speed). I need to get back to Miata and try trailbraking like what I was able to do with F8x, it will be a challenge that might kill me.

Just a poor man's guess how perhaps it sounds like try drving P-cars at their limit.

Sorry but what are you talking about re the Miata? If you find it snappy, the suspension is not setup properly, or you are not putting in the correct inputs.

“Car is scary as hell at high speed” statement further points to setup issue or need for driver to work up to the appropriate entry speed

Edit: did I read it right? That you think f80 can’t spin the dry? Lol!!

[calubi]

I could see maybe having a hard time spinning with DSC fully on, but not in track DSC-off conditions. Plenty of power to light up the rear end if you're not careful. A few weeks ago I had a good 180-degree spin coming out of the keyhole at Mid-Ohio. Pushed too hard, gave it too much throttle, and before I knew it I was facing the car behind me.

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Sorry but what are you talking about re the Miata? If you find it snappy, the suspension is not setup properly, or you are not putting in the correct inputs.

“Car is scary as hell at high speed” statement further points to setup issue or need for driver to work up to the appropriate entry speed

Edit: did I read it right? That you think f80 can’t spin the dry? Lol!!

I apologize if it sounded like bragging. It was totally unnecessary to say while saying how stable F8x platform is. Please just take it as a personal opinion as I said.

As long as one is approaching the limit carefully and incrementally, paying attention to feel of the car and not shifting weight too much or not being forced to do so due to other factors (racing or road hazard), one will not spin. Going to track days that are safely run so that one can safely and incrementally increase speed would help too. F8x is amazingly well engineered to be exceptionally stable at limit, while Miata requires a lot more precision at limit due to its short wheelbase and weight distribution which in fact no one uses as a drift car. People add front lip, rear wing and aero to make their high speed turn more stable- well I can do the turn in my F8x even probably faster without worrying about "what if it slides at 90mph and I don't catch it" Well now I found out F8x is not gonna kill me even if I accidentally drift it at 100mph. No way in the Miata- I don't even want to try it. Again, personal comments.

By the way, the wildfire in Oregon is really bad now. 500k under evacuation order and air quality is hazardous. Track days have become a distant thing...

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

I apologize if it sounded like bragging. It was totally unnecessary to say while saying how stable F8x platform is. Please just take it as a personal opinion as I said.

As long as one is approaching the limit carefully and incrementally, paying attention to feel of the car and not shifting weight too much or not being forced to do so due to other factors (racing or road hazard), one will not spin. Going to track days that are safely run so that one can safely and incrementally increase speed would help too. F8x is amazingly well engineered to be exceptionally stable at limit, while Miata requires a lot more precision at limit due to its short wheelbase and weight distribution which in fact no one uses as a drift car. People add front lip, rear wing and aero to make their high speed turn more stable- well I can do the turn in my F8x even probably faster without worrying about "what if it slides at 90mph and I don't catch it" Well now I found out F8x is not gonna kill me even if I accidentally drift it at 100mph. No way in the Miata- I don't even want to try it. Again, personal comments.

By the way, the wildfire in Oregon is really bad now. 500k under evacuation order and air quality is hazardous. Track days have become a distant thing...

I fully agree the E9X/F8X are almost impossible to spin. Extraordinarily stable cars allowing you to go to the limit without the car biting you

[jmg]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I fully agree the E9X/F8X are almost impossible to spin. Extraordinarily stable cars allowing you to go to the limit without the car biting you

You underestimate my ineptitude!

[drroc]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

I apologize if it sounded like bragging. It was totally unnecessary to say while saying how stable F8x platform is. Please just take it as a personal opinion as I said.

As long as one is approaching the limit carefully and incrementally, paying attention to feel of the car and not shifting weight too much or not being forced to do so due to other factors (racing or road hazard), one will not spin. Going to track days that are safely run so that one can safely and incrementally increase speed would help too. F8x is amazingly well engineered to be exceptionally stable at limit, while Miata requires a lot more precision at limit due to its short wheelbase and weight distribution which in fact no one uses as a drift car. People add front lip, rear wing and aero to make their high speed turn more stable- well I can do the turn in my F8x even probably faster without worrying about "what if it slides at 90mph and I don't catch it" Well now I found out F8x is not gonna kill me even if I accidentally drift it at 100mph. No way in the Miata- I don't even want to try it. Again, personal comments.

By the way, the wildfire in Oregon is really bad now. 500k under evacuation order and air quality is hazardous. Track days have become a distant thing...

Here is my spin at Laguna T10 with the DSC fully off.

Edit:
Just rewind to 5:50 mark. It looks like this website doesn't allow for links that start at a given time point.

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by drroc

Here is my spin at Laguna T10 with the DSC fully off.

First of all I'd like to avoid igniting a debate or critics on other person's fine driving. If I had to say a personal opinion as a lowly fellow track guy, it seemed that perhaps your turn-in was late and shifted a a bit too much weight trying to steer close to apex, making the slide already a quite wide angle to catch from the beginning. Being more mindful with front-rear weight balance when car does not react to steering input would potentially have helped, tapping brake or messing with throttle, usually throttle during turn-in induced oversteer.
I've done similar thing in my Miata at PIR T11 (as in one of my videos) and I couldn't catch it as I ran out of pavement. That scary muscle memory resulted in avoiding that scenario at first place. I would brake more and change line using more outer track to avoid abruptly crossing the edge of traction circle. Anyway you managed to stay in the pavement!

Nice video by the way, you seem to seamlessly flow making it entertaining to watch and enjoy the first person POV of amazing track. 6MT looking great! It seems like you also use left foot for braking?

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I fully agree the E9X/F8X are almost impossible to spin. Extraordinarily stable cars allowing you to go to the limit without the car biting you

Interestingly a couple of E9X guys said the same thing to me while we were seeing red/black flags every session during my last track day.

[drroc]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

First of all I'd like to avoid igniting a debate or critics on other person's fine driving. If I had to say a personal opinion as a lowly fellow track guy, it seemed that perhaps your turn-in was late and shifted a a bit too much weight trying to steer close to apex, making the slide already a quite wide angle to catch from the beginning. Being more mindful with front-rear weight balance when car does not react to steering input would potentially have helped, tapping brake or messing with throttle, usually throttle during turn-in induced oversteer.
I've done similar thing in my Miata at PIR T11 (as in one of my videos) and I couldn't catch it as I ran out of pavement. That scary muscle memory resulted in avoiding that scenario at first place. I would brake more and change line using more outer track to avoid abruptly crossing the edge of traction circle. Anyway you managed to stay in the pavement!

Nice video by the way, you seem to seamlessly flow making it entertaining to watch and enjoy the first person POV of amazing track. 6MT looking great! It seems like you also use left foot for braking?

The slide was definitely my fault as I screwed up the braking and entered too late into the corner. There was also less rubber on that part of the track and the late braking was definitely causing weight transfer issues. The end result was that the car very quickly lost it and I couldn't slide out of it... In my experience, it is fairly easy to control the on throttle rotation in the F80. However at speed, when the weight transfer is not quite right, the back end becomes very lively and it is much more difficult to control.

And yes, I do left foot brake

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by drroc

In my experience, it is fairly easy to control the on throttle rotation in the F80. However at speed, when the weight transfer is not quite right, the back end becomes very lively and it is much more difficult to control.

And yes, I do left foot brake

Yes, controlling braking (weight transfer) induced oversteer is another order of magnitude trickier than controlling power oversteer. Requires extra focus on keeping the car's balance. A bump or something slippery on the road can easily make it harder to control. You were so close from pulling out a heroic braking drift though.

"And yes, I do left foot brake " - That's dope!

Edit:

Originally Posted by drroc

The end result was that the car very quickly lost it and I couldn't slide out of it..

I am sure you got it, but I just wanted share my thought for others. As all I can see in the video, your steering inputs are excellent at feeling and tracking car's movement. That controls weight transfer on lateral axis. What we can't see is how your foot inputs were which controls longitudinal weight transfer. Whether you were doing it right or not, it seems a good example.

Car not reacting to the steering input trying to stop rotation could be because chassis balance was upset due to either road condition or foot inputs and weight wasn't shifted away from front.

A general tip but most important: releasing brake and moving onto throttle shouldn't come with as any tiny degree of jerkiness. Then the rate of the transitions vs. how car reacts can be experimented and adjusted. It's all about physics and how we feel it. Both weight movement in forward-rear (feet) and left-right (hands) are continuous and smooth enough, it pretty much becomes like controlling a car in a video game. But it probably happens so quick and there is no time to think except a moment of fear- but the muscle memory can be trained. First, not to abruptly lift brake when rear end starts to slide, and then not to abruptly get on throttle. Also, when weight transfer is used to rotate the car, one doesn't need much steering input at all, and by loading and unloading weight incrementally onto tires (with both steering wheel and brake/gas pedals) and feeling how they react you can approach and find limit. Once you are used to the 'feel' you get better at knowing even before understeer or oversteer happens, giving you more time to react.

Typically in my F8x, releasing brake pedal smoothly was usually sufficient to catch turn-in oversteer, although throttle input were required depending on situation. I think pro drivers probably use throttle in a more advanced way to accelerate out of the slide more quickly.

[adc]

Originally Posted by jmg

You underestimate my ineptitude!

Haha, exactly. Nobody messes with my ineptitude, I’ll tell you that! I’ve worked too hard at it...

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

I apologize if it sounded like bragging. It was totally unnecessary to say while saying how stable F8x platform is. Please just take it as a personal opinion as I said.

As long as one is approaching the limit carefully and incrementally, paying attention to feel of the car and not shifting weight too much or not being forced to do so due to other factors (racing or road hazard), one will not spin. Going to track days that are safely run so that one can safely and incrementally increase speed would help too. F8x is amazingly well engineered to be exceptionally stable at limit, while Miata requires a lot more precision at limit due to its short wheelbase and weight distribution which in fact no one uses as a drift car. People add front lip, rear wing and aero to make their high speed turn more stable- well I can do the turn in my F8x even probably faster without worrying about "what if it slides at 90mph and I don't catch it" Well now I found out F8x is not gonna kill me even if I accidentally drift it at 100mph. No way in the Miata- I don't even want to try it. Again, personal comments.

By the way, the wildfire in Oregon is really bad now. 500k under evacuation order and air quality is hazardous. Track days have become a distant thing...

Hey man, I re read my post. I was trying to make a joke but it clearly didn’t read that way. I guess those kinds of comments need to be worded differently by me since we are online and not hanging out in person.

Who did the setup on your Miata? Get the setup looked at and changed. Or I can dig up my setup sheet if you think if will help you. I agree there’s a pucker factor to knowing you have to slide the car a bit at 90-100mph (aka riverside at Buttonwillow) but that’s how all the fast guys who have shared vids and data with me are taking it. Better to get used to sliding your car in a $10k Miata than a $50k+ f8x and if your Miata is not setup to support that learning, it’s kind of a missed opportunity, imho

I agree, I haven’t been to the track in while either. For better or worse, instead of discussing g80 with friends it’s now g34....

Btw which online racing platform do you use? Maybe we can organize a virtual private track day

[MyFragileHalogen]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Hey man, I re read my post. I was trying to make a joke but it clearly didnÂ’t read that way. I guess those kinds of comments need to be worded differently by me since we are online and not hanging out in person.

Who did the setup on your Miata? Get the setup looked at and changed. Or I can dig up my setup sheet if you think if will help you. I agree thereÂ’s a pucker factor to knowing you have to slide the car a bit at 90-100mph (aka riverside at Buttonwillow) but thatÂ’s how all the fast guys who have shared vids and data with me are taking it. Better to get used to sliding your car in a $10k Miata than a $50k+ f8x and if your Miata is not setup to support that learning, itÂ’s kind of a missed opportunity, imho

I agree, I havenÂ’t been to the track in while either. For better or worse, instead of discussing g80 with friends itÂ’s now g34....

Btw which online racing platform do you use? Maybe we can organize a virtual private track day

I do acknowledge that I am miles away from being most experienced nor fastest nor skilled driver, and probably all my posts are cute for some seasoned or semi or pro drivers to read. Mostly I was just sharing my excitement and knowledge I learned in relatively short time from somewhat all my cars liking to slide more than necessary and that I still have cars to drive. I am aware that at times I probably got too excited from my own progress, but mostly I love to promote learning and sharing.

My Miata's setup is really simple, just street tires and track/street dual setup. I definitely will have to go back to the Miata for unfinished learning and as you say I will get it corner-balanced by a reputable shop and see. But man, F8x is soooooo much easier to drive and it is addicting to play with it.

I am still really primitive about using data platforms as I don't want to get stressed with small things and also I don't have to be competitive. But the Garmin thing Suds is talking about in other thread looks pretty fun. Maybe in a few year when I get bored of PNW tracks I will drive down to bay area tracks.

edit: oh, you mean online racing, I don't do anything. I played Forza a bit lol. but that sounds like fun what these forum members could do during winter break.

[FormulaMMM]

3 events in with the .2, a few updates on running costs:

Oil change (discretionary): $399 at the dealer.

Pagid pads & fluid flush (independent): $1400.

Did this out of habit more than anything else. OE pads were excellent. The RSL 1 probably have more initial bite, which I prefer.

As of day 3, N1 Cup 2 have definitely lost a step. -2-3 mph min speed in key corners and estimate -1-2 seconds/lap. Front end has less turn in, rear even got slidey with pressures running a bit too high.

Tread, on the other hand, is all good. Really excellent wear. You’d never guess they were out of their prime. So this puts you into a tire conundrum -- keep running at reduced pace and with "evolving" handling characteristics, or fit new. Track characteristics might help inform that choice, i.e., what is margin for error.

Believe tires were fitted new at the time of my purchase, but they are ’18 manufacture dates. Also run in crazy hot conditions. I imagine a fresh set run in more optimum ambient conditions wouldn’t fall off quite as quick.

So, echoing the RS owner on pg 1, the tire cost factor is a big one. Word on the street is that the OE Dunlop is faster and achieves more heat cycles. I’ll probably try those next -- $2k.

Trofeo R are available for +$200 over the Dunlops, but those can deliver either lap records or frustration. I’ll probably steer clear.

(Bridgestone, Hankook, Nitto, et al could probably corner the market with releases in 991 GT3 specs.)

OE front rotors are showing a handful of small cracks. Porsche says anything >5 mm requires replacement. A few of them exceed that measurement, but they’re all pretty fine, none to the outer edge, or connecting the cross drills, etc. so confident I’ll get at least another 1-2 events out of them. Car was tracked before my ownership. OE iron rotors will last longer than my 4-5.

Replacement front slotted aftermarket: $1600.

Pretty fun car...

[adc]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

3 events in with the .2, a few updates on running costs:

Oil change (discretionary): $399 at the dealer.

Pagid pads & fluid flush (independent): $1400.

Did this out of habit more than anything else. OE pads were excellent. The RSL 1 probably have more initial bite, which I prefer.

As of day 3, N1 Cup 2 have definitely lost a step. -2-3 mph min speed in key corners and estimate -1-2 seconds/lap. Front end has less turn in, rear even got slidey with pressures running a bit too high.

Tread, on the other hand, is all good. Really excellent wear. You’d never guess they were out of their prime. So this puts you into a tire conundrum -- keep running at reduced pace and with "evolving" handling characteristics, or fit new. Track characteristics might help inform that choice, i.e., what is margin for error.

Believe tires were fitted new at the time of my purchase, but they are ’18 manufacture dates. Also run in crazy hot conditions. I imagine a fresh set run in more optimum ambient conditions wouldn’t fall off quite as quick.

So, echoing the RS owner on pg 1, the tire cost factor is a big one. Word on the street is that the OE Dunlop is faster and achieves more heat cycles. I’ll probably try those next -- $2k.

Trofeo R are available for +$200 over the Dunlops, but those can deliver either lap records or frustration. I’ll probably steer clear.

(Bridgestone, Hankook, Nitto, et al could probably corner the market with releases in 991 GT3 specs.)

OE front rotors are showing a handful of small cracks. Porsche says anything >5 mm requires replacement. A few of them exceed that measurement, but they’re all pretty fine, none to the outer edge, or connecting the cross drills, etc. so confident I’ll get at least another 1-2 events out of them. Car was tracked before my ownership. OE iron rotors will last longer than my 4-5.

Replacement front slotted aftermarket: $1600.

Pretty fun car...

Thank you for posting this update. This is excellent data...

[fanatic1]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Word on the street is that the OE Dunlop is faster and achieves more heat cycles. I’ll probably try those next -- $2k.

.

Heard the same thing this weekend at the track, Dunlop approx two seconds faster than cup2 on a sub two minute lap time, 991.2 RS

[adc]

Originally Posted by fanatic1

Heard the same thing this weekend at the track, Dunlop approx two seconds faster than cup2 on a sub two minute lap time, 991.2 RS

I’ve witnessed the better/extra Dunlop wear & heat cycles on the RS. Maybe wasn’t driven quite as fast but it was wearing better than the Michelins.

[katzndogs]

I traded my F80 for a 718 GT4 early this summer - here are a few quick observations after 3 track days on the car.

1) still on stock fluid and pads which I have no complaints about so far. Will use these until their life is up and then upgrade. So far I have saved money compared to the cost to purchase, install and flush lines with Pagid RS29 and Motul High Temp Fluid which was immidiately neccesary on my F80 with steel brakes.

2) tire cost is much higher. Cup 2 replacement is like $1650 (this is for non N1 and about another $100 for n1).... not including install

3) factory adjustable coil overs, F and R sway bars, and F and R aero definitely makes the car a lot easier and cheaper to dial in without forcing you to go aftermarket. Sway bars and Aero I can adjust in my garage.

4) I installed camber shims. Quite inexpensive and allow more camber than stock to help save on the tires.

All in all - I think this car is more inexpensive and far more capable out of the box and for your first few days on track compared to the F80. However, once you eat through your first set of tires, need an oil change, and want to go further with safety equipment (6 pt harnesses and harness bar), that's when the BMW is a cheaper car to track.

[ABenLauda]

I'm considering the GT4 as my next track car and if you don't mind, may I ask:

Originally Posted by katzndogs

1) still on stock fluid and pads which I have no complaints about so far. Will use these until their life is up and then upgrade. So far I have saved money compared to the cost to purchase, install and flush lines with Pagid RS29 and Motul High Temp Fluid which was immidiately neccesary on my F80 with steel brakes.

Q1: Does your GT4 have steels or carbon ceramics?
Q2: Is the GT4's stock brakes better than the F80's upgraded brakes (lines, pads and fluid) on track?
Q3: What will you upgrade the GT4's brakes to? BBK? If yes, which one?

Originally Posted by katzndogs

4) I installed camber shims. Quite inexpensive and allow more camber than stock to help save on the tires.

Q4: Why didn't you go with camber plates?

[katzndogs]

Originally Posted by ABenChod

I'm considering the GT4 as my next track car and if you don't mind, may I ask:



Q1: Does your GT4 have steels or carbon ceramics?
Q2: Is the GT4's stock brakes better than the F80's upgraded brakes (lines, pads and fluid) on track?
Q3: What will you upgrade the GT4's brakes to? BBK? If yes, which one?




Q4: Why didn't you go with camber plates?

1) Steel - this is the option all who plan on seriously tracking the car select

2) yes - night and day. no contest. My F80 with upgraded pads and fluids while sufficient on the track, would still get tired towards the end of the session on track and were not good at all on the street from a NVH point of view. With the GT4 steel brakes - I can beat on them for a 100+ track miles in one day and then drive home without so much as a peep or vibration. Very pleased. Also so far there has been next to zero fade on the track and I am pushing them hard.

3) no need to upgrade at this point - but once I wear through my pads and rotors - I will likely upgrade to AP racing rotors and upgraded pads. High temp fluid will happen when I flush the brake lines before my next track day

4) I could have either went with camber plates or camber shims. The latter was a more cost efficient and easier option as I am only running 2.1' of neg camber in the front and I could achieve that (and more) with 7mm shims alone. I will need to see if camber plates are required to install if I decide to dial in a more aggressive alignment down the road. Rear toe links and adjustable thrust arms will likely be necessary at this point. As for now, I am pleased with tire wear with current alignment. BTW, slight toe-in in the rear helped wonders under hard braking.

Overall - its a magnificent upgrade over the F80 in ALL departments. My exciting to drive on the street, and really the best all around street legal choice for the track for reasonable money.

I will always have a soft spot for the F80s killer looks and ability to just lay skids at any time. But the GT4 is a more precise, rewarding to drive, classy, capable track weapon 'out of the box'.