S55 vs. S65

[Killerfish2012]

Op, and others in this tread made several assumptions. Here are some of them, as well as my personal opinion on them

1. The S65 is a "weak" engine- This engine in my opinion shines at the track. Other than that, I'm not sure what folks are getting at by comparing it to the N54, or the yet to be released S55. Neither of these can hang with an S65 for hours on a track without extensive use of methanol for cooling IMHO.

2. The S55 is "stronger" than the N54- I actually think the opposite is true, based on the terminology that BMW used to describe the two engines. The N54 internals are re-enforced, according to BMW, whereas BMW notes that the main difference between the N55, and S55 is that the crank, and pistons are re-enforced to specifically withstand the higher rpm output of the S55. Nothing else was techincally re-enforced other than these two specific parts.

3. The S55 will make more or as much power as a highly modified N54 (+700whp)- What folks are forgetting is that BMW learned a lot from the N54 crowd, especially state side. All service protocols have been updated to specifically check for modifications and flag the vehicle for warranty if any modifications are found. Also BMW will have a ton of tuner detecting shadow codes. Unlike before, when they now scan your vehicle, the ecu spits out all codes ever thrown, so deleted codes will come back.
Aside from this, no one has yet developed a flash tune for the F series in general, as BMW made this extra hard to do. Piggybacks should of course work on the S55, but as for a proper flash tune it may never come. Finally, the oem turbos on this car will prove quite difficult to make an upgrade kit for, based on the electronic design.

[e46e92love]

Wow..... famous 335i vs M3 has leaked over!!!

Can't say the OP is right or wrong. A bit brash, yes. I will say that the M-DCT was the first dual clutch trans in the world rated to 9k....beat the 458 by I think 6-months, and only those two, new R8 and new GT3 have them. Pretty cool, great job by ///M division.

So for me, I don't care about power, torque. I focus on the uniqueness of the way it's accomplished and thrill of the drive. Always felt that the S65 was the culmination of the S54, S85, S65 line of REALLY high revving engines and exciting transmissions and power delivery to the rear wheels. Maybe not the most reliable, or fastest, but cars with engines and trans that have you a special experience.

Sorry for the long opinion.

Cheers,
e46e92

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

So for me, I don't care about power, torque. I focus on the uniqueness of the way it's accomplished and thrill of the drive. Always felt that the S65 was the culmination of the S54, S85, S65 line of REALLY high revving engines and exciting transmissions and power delivery to the rear wheels. Maybe not the most reliable, or fastest, but cars with engines and trans that have you a special experience.

Sorry for the long opinion.

Cheers,
e46e92

i have been saying stuff like that for a while. simply put we have to many non M owners here right now. that really never experienced what those engines were about. to blinded by turbo engines to see that there IS in factor more to cars than power. sure turbo engines are great and all. but there is drawbacks. i would say people who own a 335i right now, are all going to be happy with the M4 engine.

its like a really rich and greedy person. its hard for them to see that there is more to life than money.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Ezio

i have been saying stuff like that for a while. simply put we have to many non M owners here right now. that really never experienced what those engines were about. to blinded by turbo engines to see that there IS in factor more to cars than power. sure turbo engines are great and all. but there is drawbacks. i would say people who own a 335i right now, are all going to be happy with the M4 engine.

its like a really rich and greedy person. its hard for them to see that there is more to life than money.

I think you paint with too broad a brush and make too many assumptions. Many of us 335i/328i/320i owners have owned M3's before (..in my case, I've owned 5; two E46 M3's and three E9X M3's). I'm impartial really. I don't really care whether a car is N/A or F/I. All I care about is a responsive, 'fun to drive' demeanor, and I'm not invested in the pro-N/A or pro-turbo arguments. I have never touched the motor on any BMW I've owned (..I grew out of that in the B-Series motor swapping Honda days), but I always work the suspension over.

Is your 2013 your first ///M car? You seem to romanticize things a bit.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by Ezio

i have been saying stuff like that for a while. simply put we have to many non M owners here right now. that really never experienced what those engines were about. to blinded by turbo engines to see that there IS in factor more to cars than power. sure turbo engines are great and all. but there is drawbacks. i would say people who own a 335i right now, are all going to be happy with the M4 engine.

its like a really rich and greedy person. its hard for them to see that there is more to life than money.

I used to feel that way and now realize they are the majority, we are the minority, which is ok. Different strokes for different folks. I hate it, but as a businessman understand why BMW made the switch: it lowers production costs, increases margins and increases sales as you cater to larger market. Forces people like us to make enough money to afford the GT3s of the world or to buy used

I own my e92, and drive it daily, but it is soon to be retired from daily use by a 3 year old 740Li. When the comp pkg comes our I will lease (first time I have ever leased) an F80 ///M3 for my company, and hand the 7 to the wife and her '07 X3 will be regulated to minor driving. I view mine as too special to ever give up, while the new one as a great car that I won't care about giving up after a few years.

Cheers,
e46e92

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

I used to feel that way and now realize they are the majority, we are the minority, which is ok. Different strokes for different folks. I hate it, but as a businessman understand why BMW made the switch: it lowers production costs, increases margins and increases sales as you cater to larger market. Forces people like us to make enough money to afford the GT3s of the world or to buy used

I own my e92, and drive it daily, but it is soon to be retired from daily use by a 3 year old 740Li. When the comp pkg comes our I will lease (first time I have ever leased) an F80 ///M3 for my company, and hand the 7 to the wife and her '07 X3 will be regulated to minor driving. I view mine as too special to ever give up, while the new one as a great car that I won't care about giving up after a few years.

Cheers,
e46e92

It seems like you might benefit from not painting the brush with such broad a stroke either. Many people have 'been there, done that'.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

It seems like you might benefit from not painting the brush with such broad a stroke either. Many people have 'been there, done that'.

What are you talking about? Like it or not the majority want torque and FI. Is what it is.

Cheers,
e46e92

[Boss330]

The next gen California (MY 2015) will have the Maserati/Ferrari 3,8l turbo engine that has been in production for a few years now.

http://www.gtspirit.com/2013/12/19/n...bos-at-geneva/

So, Ferrari will be using a existing turbo engine, probably with their own specific set up for the California. Will be interesting to see if they retain the cross plane crank from the Maserati version or use a flat plane crank...

From an interview with Ferrari CEO Amadeo Felisa:

I'd asked him about turbos in general. "Turbocharging and direct gasoline injection is the right way for performance without a payment in consumption. To get the same performance with naturally aspirated engines at the same consumption is difficult." OK, I ask, so turbo would be good for the next California?

"Today's California doesn't lack performance…" But then he adds. "To evolve performance as we have the past four or five years, turbo is a solution." Won't that mean losing the engine sound that's so critical to being a Ferrari, and the sharp throttle response? He shakes his head. "Wait and see."

I ask if this means using an additional electric motor. "LaFerrari was done to research hybrids. But it's not affordable on our normal cars. You don't need an electric motor to offset turbo lag. You can do it in another way."

So onward goes the relentless march of the turbo engine. Still, even for Ferrari, some things are sacred. "We will keep the V12 naturally aspirated," Felisa says.

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/n...rbo-2013-11-18

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Op, and others in this tread made several assumptions. Here are some of them, as well as my personal opinion on them

1. The S65 is a "weak" engine- This engine in my opinion shines at the track. Other than that, I'm not sure what folks are getting at by comparing it to the N54, or the yet to be released S55. Neither of these can hang with an S65 for hours on a track without extensive use of methanol for cooling IMHO.

2. The S55 is "stronger" than the N54- I actually think the opposite is true, based on the terminology that BMW used to describe the two engines. The N54 internals are re-enforced, according to BMW, whereas BMW notes that the main difference between the N55, and S55 is that the crank, and pistons are re-enforced to specifically withstand the higher rpm output of the S55. Nothing else was techincally re-enforced other than these two specific parts.

3. The S55 will make more or as much power as a highly modified N54 (+700whp)- What folks are forgetting is that BMW learned a lot from the N54 crowd, especially state side. All service protocols have been updated to speciically check for modifications and flag the vehicle for warranty if any modifications are found. Also BMW will have a ton of tuner detecting shadow codes. Unlike before, when they now scan your vehicle, the ecu spits out all codes ever thrown, so deleted codes will come back.
Aside from this, no one has yet developed a flash tune for the F series in general, as BMW made this extra hard to do. Piggybacks should of course work on the S55, but as for a proper flash tune it may never come. Finally, the oem turbos on this car will prove quite difficult to make an upgrade kit for, based on the electronic design.

Have you any confirmation that the S55 has to have an extensive use of methanol to keep up with the S65 on track? Or is just your assumption...

Have you forgot that the S55 has a brand new block with a closed deck design and no cylinder liners? Should be significantly stronger than the N54/55 Block!

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

Wow..... famous 335i vs M3 has leaked over!!!

Can't say the OP is right or wrong. A bit brash, yes. I will say that the M-DCT was the first dual clutch trans in the world rated to 9k....beat the 458 by I think 6-months, and only those two, new R8 and new GT3 have them. Pretty cool, great job by ///M division.

So for me, I don't care about power, torque. I focus on the uniqueness of the way it's accomplished and thrill of the drive. Always felt that the S65 was the culmination of the S54, S85, S65 line of REALLY high revving engines and exciting transmissions and power delivery to the rear wheels. Maybe not the most reliable, or fastest, but cars with engines and trans that have you a special experience.

Sorry for the long opinion.

Cheers,
e46e92

DCT transmission is bought wholesale from Getrag, not made or developed by BMW...

But, I agree on your view on the S85 and S65 as being the culmination of a long line of BMW M naturally aspirated engines. The "special" qualities of a NA engine will be lost with the S55, but that engine will have other "special" qualities!

[paddy335]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I think you paint with too broad a brush and make too many assumptions. Many of us 335i/328i/320i owners have owned M3's before (..in my case, I've owned 5; two E46 M3's and three E9X M3's). I'm impartial really. I don't really care whether a car is N/A or F/I. All I care about is a responsive, 'fun to drive' demeanor, and I'm not invested in the pro-N/A or pro-turbo arguments. I have never touched the motor on any BMW I've owned (..I grew out of that in the B-Series motor swapping Honda days), but I always work the suspension over.

Is your 2013 your first ///M car? You seem to romanticize things a bit.

Completely agree with you. Same boat here, owned M3's, not invested in FI vs NA, owned many types of both, enjoyed most of them.

What astounds me most is how many people on this forum have written off the new M3's engine without even driving it or seeing any impartial reviews, and in spite of great data and some fantastic new parts. Amazingly 'head buried in sand' approach.

Or as sedan_clan also said: a bit of romanticization

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by paddy335

Completely agree with you. Same boat here, owned M3's, not invested in FI vs NA, owned many types of both, enjoyed most of them.

What astounds me most is how many people on this forum have written off the new M3's engine without even driving it or seeing any impartial reviews, and in spite of great data and some fantastic new parts. Amazingly 'head buried in sand' approach.

Or as sedan_clan also said: a bit of romanticization

I also wonder if those same folks have driven the new M5/M6s. I spent a couple days at the performance M school driving all all the M cars hard around the track. I may be in the minority but I preferred the turbo V8s easily. I know it's blasphemy, but I also preferred the exhaust note of the M5/M6s. Inside the cabin you're a bit isolated but that's the general nature of the luxury cars themselves. But standing outside the cars or inside mine with the windows down while another M5 went WOT was a beautiful sound.

The M3 was actually my favorite car, but that's only due to it's smaller size and has nothing to do with the engine or lackluster interior. It felt more tossable around the track, even if my actual times didn't back that up.

If the F80 has kept the same overall feel of the E90 or improved along with an engine with similar characteristics of the M5, I think we have a winner. I left my first day after driving the M5 then the M3 back to back saying, "boy if they could put the M5 engine in the M3, THAT would be the car I'd want".

[dc503]

Originally Posted by Ezio

i have been saying stuff like that for a while. simply put we have to many non M owners here right now. that really never experienced what those engines were about. to blinded by turbo engines to see that there IS in factor more to cars than power. sure turbo engines are great and all. but there is drawbacks. i would say people who own a 335i right now, are all going to be happy with the M4 engine.

its like a really rich and greedy person. its hard for them to see that there is more to life than money.

Keep going, you're getting better and better.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by tdizzle

I also wonder if those same folks have driven the new M5/M6s. I spent a couple days at the performance M school driving all all the M cars hard around the track. I may be in the minority but I preferred the turbo V8s easily. I know it's blasphemy, but I also preferred the exhaust note of the M5/M6s. Inside the cabin you're a bit isolated but that's the general nature of the luxury cars themselves. But standing outside the cars or inside mine with the windows down while another M5 went WOT was a beautiful sound.

The M3 was actually my favorite car, but that's only due to it's smaller size and has nothing to do with the engine or lackluster interior. It felt more tossable around the track, even if my actual times didn't back that up.

If the F80 has kept the same overall feel of the E90 or improved along with an engine with similar characteristics of the M5, I think we have a winner. I left my first day after driving the M5 then the M3 back to back saying, "boy if they could put the M5 engine in the M3, THAT would be the car I'd want".

You know what's funny? I remember a similar comment being tossed around before the E9X. Then they lobbed off two cylinders from the E60's powerplant, and the S65 was born. LOL!

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Have you any confirmation that the S55 has to have an extensive use of methanol to keep up with the S65 on track? Or is just your assumption...

I'm basing it on years of our collective tracking experiences with the 335I. We've all tried everything, but 1,600F recycled exhaust gas temps is ultimately impossible to beat. The only guys truly able to go lap after lap use methanol.

Originally Posted by Boss330

Have you forgot that the S55 has a brand new block with a closed deck design and no cylinder liners? Should be significantly stronger than the N54/55 Block!

Significantly stronger than the N55? YES. Than the N54? Not a chance! Like OP stated, our stock block is currently holding daily driven 770whp. Call me when we see this with the S55. Oh, and how bout them S55 rods? Don't think those are as re-enforced as the N54

[RMB]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

I'm basing it on years of our collective tracking experiences with the 335I. We've all tried everything, but 1,600F recycled exhaust gas temps is ultimately impossible to beat. The only guys truly able to go lap after lap use methanol.



Significantly stronger than the N55? YES. Than the N54? Not a chance! Like OP stated, our stock block is currently holding daily driven 770whp. Call me when we see this with the S55. Oh, and how bout them S55 rods? Don't think those are as re-enforced as the N54

I don't know. Your experience definitely counts for something, so I am not trying to negate that in any way. But don't you think we should wait to get some more data/history on the new M3/M4 before we start writing it off compared to previous BMW products?

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by Boss330

DCT transmission is bought wholesale from Getrag, not made or developed by BMW...

But, I agree on your view on the S85 and S65 as being the culmination of a long line of BMW M naturally aspirated engines. The "special" qualities of a NA engine will be lost with the S55, but that engine will have other "special" qualities!

Incorrect......some basic design may be the same, but internals are different, even from other BMW DCTs like on the 335is.

Best source I could find: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take-road-test


Cheers,
e46e92

[435iaffair]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I think you paint with too broad a brush and make too many assumptions. Many of us 335i/328i/320i owners have owned M3's before (..in my case, I've owned 5; two E46 M3's and three E9X M3's). I'm impartial really. I don't really care whether a car is N/A or F/I. All I care about is a responsive, 'fun to drive' demeanor, and I'm not invested in the pro-N/A or pro-turbo arguments. I have never touched the motor on any BMW I've owned (..I grew out of that in the B-Series motor swapping Honda days), but I always work the suspension over.

Is your 2013 your first ///M car? You seem to romanticize things a bit.

You're like the voice of reason on this forum lol

Originally Posted by paddy335

Completely agree with you. Same boat here, owned M3's, not invested in FI vs NA, owned many types of both, enjoyed most of them.

What astounds me most is how many people on this forum have written off the new M3's engine without even driving it or seeing any impartial reviews, and in spite of great data and some fantastic new parts. Amazingly 'head buried in sand' approach.

Or as sedan_clan also said: a bit of romanticization

+8000

My first 8 "performance cars" were all turbocharged, but I've since switched to n/a as I enjoy the throttle response and more linear power delivery. The 435 is the first FI car I've had in quite some time and I love it. Can't wait to try the S55 as I'm sure it's better than the N55 in every way. The broad powerband on the S55 should be quite beneficial when translated into real world performance figures.

I love the E9xM but IMHO the s65 just didn't have enough torque for being a v8 and the overall driving experience wasn't visceral enough for me to justify trading in the Z4M for. If I didn't love the Z4M so much I'd be in a 6mt E92 M3 for the past few years. That said I drive my friend's 6mt and dct e92 Ms every chance I get (about once every few weeks), and I smile like a little kid in a candy store every time I drive them. These cars are all awesome.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

I could come up with more sources for you, but I just don't care enough to.

Believe what you want, somehow your sources are valued more......


Same old BimmerPost.

Cheers,
e46e92

Well, maybe I am wrong. I posted multiple, different sources.

If you can find a source to refute those, then by all means.

[RMB]

The S65 sounded great and was a great engine to rev and it felt exotic to me. I do miss my old E92 M3, however, even though the throttle response was great, it just felt weak below 5000 rpm. If only the S65 had another 50 pounds of low end torque it would be great.

I know it is not an equal comparison price wise, etc., but when I got out of an R8 V10 plus (another NA engine), it made my M3 feel a lot less special. That NA engine, pushed me in the back of my seat from idle to redline. I really want more grunt with the new FI engine and I do feel that it will deliver. I don't want to spend 180K for this R8, but I am fine with 90K for my M4. This is why I sold my M3 to make room for my Silverstone M4 and I can't wait.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

Incorrect......some basic design may be the same, but internals are different, even from other BMW DCTs like on the 335is.

Best source I could find: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take-road-test

I'm siding with the opposition here. Your source doesn't really even address the key point of contention here. Journalists often give praise to an OEM for some outsourced component (steering, tranny, diff, electronics, etc.).

Now although I would give the vast majority of the design/engineering/manufacturing credit to Getrag for the M-DCT in the E9X M3, BMW and Getrag almost for sure cooperated on the unit. After all software for the transmission must cooperate with the engine software (further cooperation/integration has been discussed for the DCT in the M4). This tight knitting clearly requires some co-development and this is very typical as the supplier engineering team becomes a bit intermingled with the OEMs team during the development phase.

If I were to speculate on the customizations for BMW software is one obvious one as is the overall external packaging. The M-DCT unit advertised on Getrags website (right around and prior to the launch time of the E9X M3) looked ENTIRELY different than the actual unit. I'm sure those pics can easily be dug up. However, the internals both in their advertised unit and those for the other BMW models offering a nearly identical spec, are likely very close to identical. They probably offer very slight internal revisions and updates here and there but are going to be largely identical. There is plenty of documentation both external and I believe straight from the horses mouth (from BMW) stating this as the case.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by 435iaffair

I love the E9xM but IMHO the s65 just didn't have enough torque for being a v8 and the overall driving experience wasn't visceral enough for me to justify trading in the Z4M for. If I didn't love the Z4M so much I'd be in a 6mt E92 M3 for the past few years. That said I drive my friend's 6mt and dct e92 Ms every chance I get (about once every few weeks), and I smile like a little kid in a candy store every time I drive them. These cars are all awesome.

Is this fairly contradictory or am I missing something, especially the bold parts?

Is it the chassis or engine which wasn't visceral enough? I've never heard the S65 being described as anything but frenetic and visceral.

We've also beat the "not enough torque" think to death in about 100 threads. The car has more torque at the wheels than a 400 ft lb Z06 Vette at most rpms in most gears. Torque at the crank is largely a meaningless. It is torque with the gear/FD multiplication which gives wheel torque which is then something directly related to instantaneous acceleration.