BMW M3 / M4 Brake Systems: Deep Dive and Interview

[Powaup]

Originally Posted by absoluteis350

Your dealer is probably unaware of the change. They definitely are covered now. Confirmed by BMW NA and the M5 guys that have gotten CCB. It was only the first year that they were uncovered.

But the point is largely irrelevant: They will last the life of the car under normal use, so no money out of dealers pocket. And if you track the car, they will void the Maintenance program on the CCB, also no money out of dealers pocket.

As for wear, I don't think anyone around here has worn them yet. The largest dealer that has sold CCB around here told me they have yet to replace a set of pads. That can mean anything tho (maybe the ppl that got CCB don't put many miles on their cars, maybe they got them done somewhere else, who knows)

Good info to know. Now what happens if the brakes explode because you washed your car improperly and dented the discs? I'm guessing that's still covered by warranty?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Powaup

Good info to know. Now what happens if the brakes explode because you washed your car improperly and dented the discs? I'm guessing that's still covered by warranty?

Since when is damage resutling from an accident or improper use/maintenance covered under warranty

[TNTofthe916]

I know folks stationed here in Germany have had maintenance under warranty voided because they revealed it occurred at the ring. It's best to reveal nothing regarding even limited track use and keep requests at a reasonable pace.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Much better braking, better handling and acceleration (27.5+ lb rotational and unsprung weight savings), perpetually clean wheels, low maintenance, plus street cred and super cool aesthetic... CCB's price of admission seems reasonable to me!

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Much better braking, better handling and acceleration (27.5+ lb rotational and unsprung weight savings), perpetually clean wheels, low maintenance, plus street cred and super cool aesthetic... Price seems reasonable to me!

Almost got me talked into them!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Much better braking, better handling and acceleration (27.5+ lb rotational and unsprung weight savings), perpetually clean wheels, low maintenance, plus street cred and super cool aesthetic... CCB's price of admission seems reasonable to me!

27.5lb rotational mass saving yes, but not unsprung weight. Unsprung weight is only reduced by 3.25-3.75lb per corner due to the heavier callipers.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Much better braking, better handling and acceleration (27.5+ lb rotational and unsprung weight savings), perpetually clean wheels, low maintenance, plus street cred and super cool aesthetic... CCB's price of admission seems reasonable to me!

And "much better braking" is clearly a big stretch. Maybe, somewhat improved fade resistance but surely not better braking force/time/distance. That is largely governed by available traction (assuming brakes matched well to weight distribution change under hard braking).

Massivle higher price, makes your car look more like a exotic, much more fragile and little to no wear benefit when pushed hard on the track = totally unreasonable price of admission (of course my perspective).

[consolidated]

Think of it as a luxury item first, you know, like a BMW M car.

Not even full leather gets this much debate, because it's purely a luxury selection. Not worth overthinking this one, feel it or don't feel it. It happens to stop the car, but that's not a measure of it's complete 'value' if you know what I mean.

[KevN27]

Is the M3 more of a sport or luxury car? I tend to add options enhancing such characteristic of the car.

To some people, it's more of the latter. So full leather, comfort access are more worth spending their money on.

[consolidated]

Originally Posted by KevN27

Is the M3 more of a sport or luxury car?

The beauty of the formula. Sporty lux auto for reasonable money. More lux these days, but that's the case for every car.

I can have a daily driver, kid hauler with carbon ceramic brakes and 9/10th of the capability of a pure sports car for SUV money. Only a wagon would make it more perfect.

[Caelric]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

As far as being covered for track days and HPDE, the term "competitive events" is very specific. Track days and HPDEs are not considered competitive events.

While we all understand that HPDEs and Track Days are not competitive events, almost all insurance companies and warranty programs consider that it you are on any form of race track, even if for a 'non-competitive event' such as an HPDE, they consider it to be competitive and will not honor insurance and/or warranty claims.

I have USAA, considered one of the best, if not the best, insurance company in the US, and they, like all other insurance companies make it more than clear that if you are on a track surface, you are not covered. This goes for most warranty programs, as well.

[ss134]

Originally Posted by TNTofthe916

I know folks stationed here in Germany have had maintenance under warranty voided because they revealed it occurred at the ring. It's best to reveal nothing regarding even limited track use and keep requests at a reasonable pace.

.. ....which is shocking considering every promo or commercial for the M3 show a racing driver thrashing it around a track clearly trying to show that the M3 is a road car designed with occasional track days in mind.

[gago1101]

Originally Posted by ss134

.. ....which is shocking considering every promo or commercial for the M3 show a racing driver thrashing it around a track clearly trying to show that the M3 is a road car designed with occasional track days in mind.

Agree, if BMW meant track use will void warranty, they would have clearly stated that. Instead, they say competitive events, which gives room for interpretation. Any time there is room for interpretation, you can interpret it as you like and you can and will win in court with appropriate representation.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Caelric

While we all understand that HPDEs and Track Days are not competitive events, almost all insurance companies and warranty programs consider that it you are on any form of race track, even if for a 'non-competitive event' such as an HPDE, they consider it to be competitive and will not honor insurance and/or warranty claims.

I have USAA, considered one of the best, if not the best, insurance company in the US, and they, like all other insurance companies make it more than clear that if you are on a track surface, you are not covered. This goes for most warranty programs, as well.

We have had students have incidents while attending HPDEs. With the proper documentation and reports proving it was a non-competitive event, their insurance covered. If you have a clause that specifically specifies that you are not covered on a race track, then it is a different story.

As for warranty, as others have stated, the BMW documentation is not explicit about use on a track, which makes it open to interpretation.

[Caelric]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

We have had students have incidents while attending HPDEs. With the proper documentation and reports proving it was a non-competitive event, their insurance covered. If you have a clause that specifically specifies that you are not covered on a race track, then it is a different story.

As for warranty, as others have stated, the BMW documentation is not explicit about use on a track, which makes it open to interpretation.

Conversely, every single incident I have heard of of someone trying to claim on their insurance from an HPDE mishap has been denied. But anecdotal evidence is just that...anecdotes. Enough of them actually make data, but I certainly don't claim to have enough anecdotes to make data.

As for the BMW warranty documentation bein open to interpretation, you are certainly correct in that; but I would azrd to say that BMW has a number of on staff lawyers that are experts in such interpretation, whereas the average owner has....less of such resources.

We are certainly straying far from the original subject of the CCBs.

For me, the CCBs are just plain not worth it, even though I plan on doing multiple track days in my M4. Of course, changing brake pads the morning of track event is incredibly easy, if you are not an idiot, and it is something I did every track day I went to in the past, and probably about halway into my track day time, started chaging wheels/tires to a dedicated r-compound tire and wheel set.

The lack of brake dust from the CCBs is a nice bonus, and the 'bling' certainly is there, but it is not worth the $8k, not for me.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Caelric

Conversely, every single incident I have heard of of someone trying to claim on their insurance from an HPDE mishap has been denied. But anecdotal evidence is just that...anecdotes. Enough of them actually make data, but I certainly don't claim to have enough anecdotes to make data.

I am very involved with our local BMW club, and what I mentioned is factual, not anecdotal

It might be different in Canada vs the US though...

Originally Posted by Caelric

We are certainly straying far from the original subject of the CCBs.

For me, the CCBs are just plain not worth it, even though I plan on doing multiple track days in my M4. Of course, changing brake pads the morning of track event is incredibly easy, if you are not an idiot, and it is something I did every track day I went to in the past, and probably about halway into my track day time, started chaging wheels/tires to a dedicated r-compound tire and wheel set.

The lack of brake dust from the CCBs is a nice bonus, and the 'bling' certainly is there, but it is not worth the $8k, not for me.

We are on the same page here

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by Caelric

While we all understand that HPDEs and Track Days are not competitive events, almost all insurance companies and warranty programs consider that it you are on any form of race track, even if for a 'non-competitive event' such as an HPDE, they consider it to be competitive and will not honor insurance and/or warranty claims.

I have USAA, considered one of the best, if not the best, insurance company in the US, and they, like all other insurance companies make it more than clear that if you are on a track surface, you are not covered. This goes for most warranty programs, as well.

USAA and many other insurance carriers do indeed word the exclusions in their policy to make it clear that driving on a race track for any reason is not covered. USAA's goes so far as to say something like, "for any reason, including to improve your skill as a driver." Wouldn't want people doing THAT! On USAA in particular, I've read multiple threads about people who called them to ask about HPDE coverage either as part of their regular policy or as part of some supplemental coverage they could purchase. USAA not only told them that HPDEs were not covered, but then chose not to renew their policies just because they asked about it.

It USED to be that the most carriers' policies said that you were only excluded from coverage on the track if you were "practicing for or participating in any timed or competitive event" -- which means HPDEs would be covered. Open track days with no instructors or classes probably wouldn't be covered though, even if you weren't timing anything, since that could more easily be construed as practice for a competitive event. My policy with Amica Mutual (in Texas in case there are variations from state to state) says that I'm not covered on a race track if I'm "practicing for or participating in any racing or speed contest", which again doesn't describe HPDEs. But Amica seems to be one of the few left that still uses that type of language rather than a blanket exclusion on track driving.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by jphughan

USAA and many other insurance carriers do indeed word the exclusions in their policy to make it clear that driving on a race track for any reason is not covered. USAA's goes so far as to say something like, "for any reason, including to improve your skill as a driver." Wouldn't want people doing THAT! On USAA in particular, I've read multiple threads about people who called them to ask about HPDE coverage either as part of their regular policy or as part of some supplemental coverage they could purchase. USAA not only told them that HPDEs were not covered, but then chose not to renew their policies just because they asked about it.

It USED to be that the most carriers' policies said that you were only excluded from coverage on the track if you were "practicing for or participating in any timed or competitive event" -- which means HPDEs would be covered. Open track days with no instructors or classes probably wouldn't be covered though, even if you weren't timing anything, since that could more easily be construed as practice for a competitive event. My policy with Amica Mutual (in Texas in case there are variations from state to state) says that I'm not covered on a race track if I'm "practicing for or participating in any racing or speed contest", which again doesn't describe HPDEs. But Amica seems to be one of the few left that still uses that type of language rather than a blanket exclusion on track driving.

I agree that it sucks, but honestly, do you blame them?

Ive been on track a number of times and it is absolutely more dangerous / more accident prone than regular driving. Zero doubt about it. Expecting a regular insurance policy to cover this type of extreme driving is unrealistic and unfair IMO. I don't blame the insurance companies at all.

Tracking is much more risky. Especially a place like TWS, which you also know, that has extremely dangerous and bad runoff areas where if you go off, bad things will happen.

[Randy M]

Sport bike track days are far more exciting and fun. While I've done a car day before, they're fun but not nearly as intense. Not only that but wadding up a bike makes for a bad day. Wadding up a high dollar car that will not be covered by insurance is a bad year lol...

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

I agree that it sucks, but honestly, do you blame them?

Ive been on track a number of times and it is absolutely more dangerous / more accident prone than regular driving. Zero doubt about it. Expecting a regular insurance policy to cover this type of extreme driving is unrealistic and unfair IMO. I don't blame the insurance companies at all.

Tracking is much more risky. Especially a place like TWS, which you also know, that has extremely dangerous and bad runoff areas where if you go off, bad things will happen.

I'm not saying I blame them -- except USAA for dropping people just for asking. That's just wrong. I do wonder whether those other carriers reduced their rates when they reduced their risk by excluding all track driving though. Somehow I doubt it.

As for relative safety, I have absolutely no data to substantiate this conjecture, but I would wager that there are fewer accidents at the track than on the road even per capita. Yes speeds at the track are higher and yes there are some tracks like TWS that have some nasty runoff areas, but on the other hand, traffic only goes in one direction, there are no intersections, there are corner workers to warn you of issues ahead, there are no pedestrians or kids/animals suddenly leaping out into the road, there are almost never any collisions with other cars, and most importantly, everyone out there is focused on actually driving rather than trying to balance a smartphone and a latte. I think those factors go a long way toward offsetting the increased risk from the other factors.

But again, I don't have any hard numbers. It'd be fascinating if the dedicated HPDE insurance carriers shared their average payout per insured party so we could compare against the average for regular insurers' payouts on comprehensive coverage from moving accidents on public roads, but I don't see that happening.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by Rated R

Sport bike track days are far more exciting and fun. While I've done a car day before, they're fun but not nearly as intense. Not only that but wadding up a bike makes for a bad day. Wadding up a high dollar car that will not be covered by insurance is a bad year lol...

True, though a nasty incident on a bike is also more likely to lead to a nasty death, or at least permanent bodily damage -- either of which kind of outweighs a nasty financial year from wadding up a car in my book. But then again I go skydiving, so we all have our level of acceptable risk for the thrill available.

That's why I'm considering an Ariel Atom though. Closer to sport bike intensity but you still get harnesses and roll bars.

[2thdr]

So, I am wondering after seeing so many Porsche's running around in the city with CCB's as to how many people are considering the ceramic option on the F80/F82 for daily drivers with no track use. I don't think I need the CCB in that situation and am not even sure as to how well they would perform if I decided to run the vehicle in the winter months as well, but I honestly don't know enough about them aside from anecdotal generalizations about using CCBs in the winter.

Can someone please provide their opinions/experiences?