Spool Performance HPFP now available for the S55!

[chetrickerman]

Originally Posted by Dippydo

With the cost of the HPFP, I am not sure why PI is not an option. Right now the Spool pumps cost more than even a stage 4 Fuel it kit at regular price.

Because of simplicity. When building for big power (800+ whp), you want to keep things as simple as possible to eliminate as many failure variables as you can.

[R8T3D_M]

Ive also heard that Nostrum High Performance has an HPFP Kit getting ready for release. 2021 is definitely going to be a good year!

[///BMW Junkie]

What about XDI? They already have an upgrade for N55, couldn't they just use two of those pumps as S55 solution? 🤔🤷🏼

[MJ6]

Originally Posted by ///BMW Junkie

What about XDI? They already have an upgrade for N55, couldn't they just use two of those pumps as S55 solution? 🤔🤷🏼

I'd hope they could and would, but the S55 HPFP has also been "in development" since Q1 2018.

As much as I'd like to see more competition in this realm, I don't think I'll be holding my breath any time soon.

[chetrickerman]

Originally Posted by ///BMW Junkie

What about XDI? They already have an upgrade for N55, couldn't they just use two of those pumps as S55 solution? ������

Originally Posted by MJ6

I'd hope they could and would, but the S55 HPFP has also been "in development" since Q1 2018.

As much as I'd like to see more competition in this realm, I don't think I'll be holding my breath any time soon.

Dont count XDI out just yet

[MJ6]

Originally Posted by chetrickerman

Dont count XDI out just yet

Well hot damn. The contenders in this octagon keep getting better and better.

Bring on 2021!

[Dippydo]

Originally Posted by chetrickerman

Because of simplicity. When building for big power (800+ whp), you want to keep things as simple as possible to eliminate as many failure variables as you can.

Ok I can understand the simplicity route. I’ll just hang out with the low power 750 guys 😂😂

[TopJimmy]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

Brand new Carbahn engine was recently installed, still going through break-in.

When I fried my DME there was a requirement to drive 1,200 miles to unlock the new DME properly. I drove all those in 1 week so I could get back tuning with Paul.

It's been almost a month...any update on the Spool HPFPs? Lots of us interested to see what happens.

[MJ6]

So here's an interesting conundrum that presented itself to me yesterday.

I reached out to HCP to inquire about having them in my corner when it comes time to tune, and mentioned that I'll be running KRAS55Bi turbos as well as an upgraded HPFP. I was a bit confused by their answer though as it conflicts with the information I've gathered on the limitations of the stock fuel system.

Thoughts?

[///BMW Junkie]

Originally Posted by MJ6

So here's an interesting conundrum that presented itself to me yesterday.

I reached out to HCP to inquire about having them in my corner when it comes time to tune, and mentioned that I'll be running KRAS55Bi turbos as well as an upgraded HPFP. I was a bit confused by their answer though as it conflicts with the information I've gathered on the limitations of the stock fuel system.

Thoughts?

790whp on pump gas? 🤨 That's considerably more for stock fuel system I've seen. Thought Kratos were making around 650-670 on pump 🤔

[MJ6]

Originally Posted by ///BMW Junkie

790whp on pump gas? 🤨 That's considerably more for stock fuel system I've seen. Thought Kratos were making around 650-670 on pump 🤔

That's what I thought too, Kratos even has dyno plots of their KRAS55Bi hitting 655whp on pump, but 790? It just doesn't jive.

Couple that with the fact that he mentions that the injectors are the bottleneck and not the HPFP's, and it goes against all the information we've received from tuners like CaryTheLabelGuy and F80Paul .

I can't be sure it was actually Halim replying from the HCP account obviously, but it's damn confusing.

[TopJimmy]

Guys,

If Halim uses stock HPFPs then I'm sure he runs port injection for anything over E50. Stock fueling system maxes out above E50 and injectors start sticking open from too much high duty cycle %.

You guys BE REAL CAREFUL running out of fuel-to-cylinder delivery or you're gonna cook Fried Piston. Run too lean and you'll get charge detonation (an in cylinder shockwave). BAD JUJU, stay away!

-Jimmy

(I sent a PM to Halim, will report back.)

[MJ6]

Originally Posted by TopJimmy

Guys,
If Halim uses stock HPFPs then I'm sure he runs port injection for anything over E50. Stock fueling system maxes out above E50 and injectors start sticking open from too much high duty cycle %.

That's what I was thinking, and perhaps there was just an error in communication. Being that no one as of yet has actually run or posted results of an after market turbo running with upgraded HPFP's (save for tom @ eas of which we're still waiting on) it wouldn't surprise me if that were the case.

Hopefully we can clear it up as I want to get all my ducks in a row prior to becoming a guinea pig.

[Sales@KRATOS]

Originally Posted by MJ6

That's what I thought too, Kratos even has dyno plots of their KRAS55Bi hitting 655whp on pump, but 790? It just doesn't jive.

Couple that with the fact that he mentions that the injectors are the bottleneck and not the HPFP's, and it goes against all the information we've received from tuners like CaryTheLabelGuy and F80Paul .

I can't be sure it was actually Halim replying from the HCP account obviously, but it's damn confusing.

Although we are a manufacturer of turbo systems and typically prefer to discuss topics related directly to that segment of the market, we also feel compelled to share our experiences and results with the community as it provides insight for those seeking similar performance goals. Coupled with the discrepancies in performance of our KRAS55Bi's on pump gas being discussed in this thread with Halim's car, we feel we should address some concerns and clarify some misconceptions. Our apologies in advance for this lengthy post, but there is quite a bit of information to discuss regarding the topic at hand.

It is true that our KRAS55Bi's did produce 655whp on 93 octane pump fuel without PI on a stock engine approximately 2 years ago. Many of our customers have produced similar results and more over the years without PI on 93 octane pump fuel depending on conditions. Many of you also know that we produced 1163whp almost 2 years ago as well on a built engine with PI and Ignite Red fuel. However, this was no easy task and was extremely inconsistent when it came to the fueling side of things as current PI offerings just don't have the processing speeds to keep up with fuel demands during extreme power transitions as HPFP's begin crashing at those power levels. Add to the fact that high HPFP target pressures are the direct cause of DI injector failure. This is contrary to the belief that DI injector failure on S55's is caused by high injector duty cycle or ethanol based fuels. Simply put, DI injectors on the S55 platform were never designed to operate at such high pressure for prolonged periods of time which result in lockup and failures. Ethanol based fueling requirements are the reason why tuners have to request such high fuel pressure targets. Although, E85 fuel absorbs moisture and can be corrosive in nature it is not the cause of S55 DI injector failure as the DI injectors are internally steel bodied. (We know all this information to be true based on our data which was also confirmed through our conversations with an Engineer contact of ours from Bosch's Motorsport Division.)

As our engineers and Halim have been working closely together over the many years of tuning and testing our turbo systems it became clearly evident that, although HPFP's were a major issue at extreme HP levels, the factory DI injectors were the main limiting factor well before reaching the limitations of the HPFP's. The limitations of HPFP's became even more evident as we began beta testing our newly developed KRAS55EVO's this past year which were designed as a larger and higher flowing rotor group (In an effort to stay on topic we'll provide more detailed info on these in another press release thread.) As turbos were installed and we began testing at higher boost levels, it was clear there was no way possible that our KRAS55EVO's could be run at full tilt with stock HPFP's and stock DI injectors. Regardless of how much additional duty cycle was added to PI, the controller's processing speed was just too slow to compensate for the rate of demand required even though we still had plenty of PI injector duty cycle left to work with. A dyno of this testing is attached as reference to show how much our KRAS55EVO's had to be turned down just to get a clean pull. At 4700rpm with a more aggressive boost ramp we ran into major issues with HPFP's crashing producing 850whp/942wtq. The car then had to be dialed down to stabilize HPFP pressures just to get a clean pass. This resulted in a power and torque loss of approximately 152whp/169wtq by 4700rpm. Had there been enough fuel to do a clean pull at full tilt on our KRAS55EVO's, we're confident the results would've easily surpassed the previous max output figures of our KRAS55Bi's based on their increased flow capabilities and adiabatic efficiency.

So, it is true that Halim did produce the results he stated on pump gas with our KRAS55Bi's on stock HPFP's and no PI with attenuated boost down low (Dyno graph on his IG).

Even though we know for certain that these injectors supply more than enough fuel for maximum pump gas results, they will still fall short on the straight E85 side with built engine when coupled with our KRAS55Bi's or KRAS55EVO's for maximum output. Halim has been doing the pump gas testing with several different larger DI injectors options and stock HPFP's for the past year while we have been working on the E85 testing with upgraded DI injectors as well as testing for Dorch Engineering with their HPFP solutions. All we can say is that the results have been nothing short of amazing! Thus far, we have been able to run straight Ignite Red fuel (88% as tested) up to 750whp with PI disconnected and approximately 1000psi less pressure on the high side. At this power level we still have quite a bit of fuel left on the table and are incrementally working on turning power up along with tuning for drivability, cold start, hot start, etc. which is very time consuming with the addition if these higher flowing fueling components on high ethanol content race fuels such as Ignite Red. However, we do understand that even with these fueling upgrades installed, there is no way to achieve maximum output on our KRAS55EVO's on Ignite Red without PI. The biggest advantage though is that the fuel system will no longer rely so heavily on the PI and be able to perform with much lower and more stable fuel pressures. In turn, no more worrying about DI injector failure or lockup at WOT while PI is still spraying resulting in a lean condition and most likely engine failure.

Out of respect for the agreements we have with Halim@HCP and Dorch Engineering, our intention was not to release any of this information until our press release for our KRAS55EVO's. However, we all felt it was time to at least provide some data since so many are in the dark regarding this topic. In the meanwhile, we're more than happy to provide as much information as Dorch and HCP are willing to release at the moment. We would prefer to do so on DM or email basis though as our intention is not to highjack a thread intended to discuss another vendor's products or results.

[sly1types]

Great info, i can't wait until we can have a real fueling solution.

[TopJimmy]

Many thanks to Sales@KRATOS for providing good solid info!!!

Is it safe to say that once you upgrade to larger injectors and HPFP that the engine will REQUIRE a Custom Tune? I don't see how any OTS map or BM3 option will account for larger injectors.

Sorry I was wrong about injector pulse width. So glad you clarified continued high pressure as the injector failure culprit.

[Sales@KRATOS]

Originally Posted by TopJimmy

Many thanks to Sales@KRATOS for providing good solid info!!!

Is it safe to say that once you upgrade to larger injectors and HPFP that the engine will REQUIRE a Custom Tune? I don't see how any OTS map or BM3 option will account for larger injectors.

Sorry I was wrong about injector pulse width. So glad you clarified continued high pressure as the injector failure culprit.

We appreciate the positive feedback!

It's really up to BM3 at the end of the day when it comes to providing an OTS file in the future that works with larger injectors and higher flowing HPFP's as Halim writes all of the BM3 OTS files. However, we agree that it would be best served for anyone looking to do these mods to work with an experienced tuner that can provide a reliable custom tune.

[///BMW Junkie]

Originally Posted by Sales@KRATOS

Although we are a manufacturer of turbo systems and typically prefer to discuss topics related directly to that segment of the market, we also feel compelled to share our experiences and results with the community as it provides insight for those seeking similar performance goals. Coupled with the discrepancies in performance of our KRAS55Bi's on pump gas being discussed in this thread with Halim's car, we feel we should address some concerns and clarify some misconceptions. Our apologies in advance for this lengthy post, but there is quite a bit of information to discuss regarding the topic at hand.

It is true that our KRAS55Bi's did produce 655whp on 93 octane pump fuel without PI on a stock engine approximately 2 years ago. Many of our customers have produced similar results and more over the years without PI on 93 octane pump fuel depending on conditions. Many of you also know that we produced 1163whp almost 2 years ago as well on a built engine with PI and Ignite Red fuel. However, this was no easy task and was extremely inconsistent when it came to the fueling side of things as current PI offerings just don't have the processing speeds to keep up with fuel demands during extreme power transitions as HPFP's begin crashing at those power levels. Add to the fact that high HPFP target pressures are the direct cause of DI injector failure. This is contrary to the belief that DI injector failure on S55's is caused by high injector duty cycle or ethanol based fuels. Simply put, DI injectors on the S55 platform were never designed to operate at such high pressure for prolonged periods of time which result in lockup and failures. Ethanol based fueling requirements are the reason why tuners have to request such high fuel pressure targets. Although, E85 fuel absorbs moisture and can be corrosive in nature it is not the cause of S55 DI injector failure as the DI injectors are internally steel bodied. (We know all this information to be true based on our data which was also confirmed through our conversations with an Engineer contact of ours from Bosch's Motorsport Division.)

As our engineers and Halim have been working closely together over the many years of tuning and testing our turbo systems it became clearly evident that, although HPFP's were a major issue at extreme HP levels, the factory DI injectors were the main limiting factor well before reaching the limitations of the HPFP's. The limitations of HPFP's became even more evident as we began beta testing our newly developed KRAS55EVO's this past year which were designed as a larger and higher flowing rotor group (In an effort to stay on topic we'll provide more detailed info on these in another press release thread.) As turbos were installed and we began testing at higher boost levels, it was clear there was no way possible that our KRAS55EVO's could be run at full tilt with stock HPFP's and stock DI injectors. Regardless of how much additional duty cycle was added to PI, the controller's processing speed was just too slow to compensate for the rate of demand required even though we still had plenty of PI injector duty cycle left to work with. A dyno of this testing is attached as reference to show how much our KRAS55EVO's had to be turned down just to get a clean pull. At 4700rpm with a more aggressive boost ramp we ran into major issues with HPFP's crashing producing 850whp/942wtq. The car then had to be dialed down to stabilize HPFP pressures just to get a clean pass. This resulted in a power and torque loss of approximately 152whp/169wtq by 4700rpm. Had there been enough fuel to do a clean pull at full tilt on our KRAS55EVO's, we're confident the results would've easily surpassed the previous max output figures of our KRAS55Bi's based on their increased flow capabilities and adiabatic efficiency.

So, it is true that Halim did produce the results he stated on pump gas with our KRAS55Bi's on stock HPFP's and no PI with attenuated boost down low (Dyno graph on his IG).

Even though we know for certain that these injectors supply more than enough fuel for maximum pump gas results, they will still fall short on the straight E85 side with built engine when coupled with our KRAS55Bi's or KRAS55EVO's for maximum output. Halim has been doing the pump gas testing with several different larger DI injectors options and stock HPFP's for the past year while we have been working on the E85 testing with upgraded DI injectors as well as testing for Dorch Engineering with their HPFP solutions. All we can say is that the results have been nothing short of amazing! Thus far, we have been able to run straight Ignite Red fuel (88% as tested) up to 750whp with PI disconnected and approximately 1000psi less pressure on the high side. At this power level we still have quite a bit of fuel left on the table and are incrementally working on turning power up along with tuning for drivability, cold start, hot start, etc. which is very time consuming with the addition if these higher flowing fueling components on high ethanol content race fuels such as Ignite Red. However, we do understand that even with these fueling upgrades installed, there is no way to achieve maximum output on our KRAS55EVO's on Ignite Red without PI. The biggest advantage though is that the fuel system will no longer rely so heavily on the PI and be able to perform with much lower and more stable fuel pressures. In turn, no more worrying about DI injector failure or lockup at WOT while PI is still spraying resulting in a lean condition and most likely engine failure.

Out of respect for the agreements we have with Halim@HCP and Dorch Engineering, our intention was not to release any of this information until our press release for our KRAS55EVO's. However, we all felt it was time to at least provide some data since so many are in the dark regarding this topic. In the meanwhile, we're more than happy to provide as much information as Dorch and HCP are willing to release at the moment. We would prefer to do so on DM or email basis though as our intention is not to highjack a thread intended to discuss another vendor's products or results.

Thanks for chiming on this topic. Just to confirm as it was a long thread, the dyno you posted at the end was your testing of upgraded DI injectors with upgraded HPFP along with PI?

[Sales@KRATOS]

Originally Posted by ///BMW Junkie

Thanks for chiming on this topic. Just to confirm as it was a long thread, the dyno you posted at the end was your testing of upgraded DI injectors with upgraded HPFP along with PI?

The dyno we posted was with our KRAS55EVO testing on stock HPFP's & stock DI injectors with PI on Ignite Red fuel. The purpose of the dyno plot overlay was to show how much the car had to be dialed back as a result of the HPFP's crashing @ 4700 with a more aggressive tune.

Here's an excerpt from our post regarding testing with larger injectors and Dorch's HPFP solution. Little easier this way since there was a lot of information to go through.

"Halim has been doing the pump gas testing with several different larger DI injectors options and stock HPFP's for the past year while we have been working on the E85 testing with upgraded DI injectors as well as testing for Dorch Engineering with their HPFP solutions. All we can say is that the results have been nothing short of amazing! Thus far, we have been able to run straight Ignite Red fuel (88% as tested) up to 750whp with PI disconnected and approximately 1000psi less pressure on the high side. At this power level we still have quite a bit of fuel left on the table and are incrementally working on turning power up along with tuning for drivability, cold start, hot start, etc. which is very time consuming with the addition if these higher flowing fueling components on high ethanol content race fuels such as Ignite Red."

The end goal with the larger DI injectors and Dorch's HPFP solution is to be able to make clean and consistently repeatable dyno passes with the more aggressive tune and surpass our previous dyno results with our KRAS55Bi's. We don't foresee this being an issue as our KRAS55EVO's flow significantly more and the major bottleneck of the stock fueling system has now been updated. We will create a new thread and post all data once we've completed testing.

[Msm1984]

Originally Posted by Sales@KRATOS

The dyno we posted was with our KRAS55EVO testing on stock HPFP's & stock DI injectors with PI on Ignite Red fuel. The purpose of the dyno plot overlay was to show how much the car had to be dialed back as a result of the HPFP's crashing @ 4700 with a more aggressive tune.

Here's an excerpt from our post regarding testing with larger injectors and Dorch's HPFP solution. Little easier this way since there was a lot of information to go through.

"Halim has been doing the pump gas testing with several different larger DI injectors options and stock HPFP's for the past year while we have been working on the E85 testing with upgraded DI injectors as well as testing for Dorch Engineering with their HPFP solutions. All we can say is that the results have been nothing short of amazing! Thus far, we have been able to run straight Ignite Red fuel (88% as tested) up to 750whp with PI disconnected and approximately 1000psi less pressure on the high side. At this power level we still have quite a bit of fuel left on the table and are incrementally working on turning power up along with tuning for drivability, cold start, hot start, etc. which is very time consuming with the addition if these higher flowing fueling components on high ethanol content race fuels such as Ignite Red."

The end goal with the larger DI injectors and Dorch's HPFP solution is to be able to make clean and consistently repeatable dyno passes with the more aggressive tune and surpass our previous dyno results with our KRAS55Bi's. We don't foresee this being an issue as our KRAS55EVO's flow significantly more and the major bottleneck of the stock fueling system has now been updated. We will create a new thread and post all data once we've completed testing.

Originally Posted by Sales@KRATOS

The dyno we posted was with our KRAS55EVO testing on stock HPFP's & stock DI injectors with PI on Ignite Red fuel. The purpose of the dyno plot overlay was to show how much the car had to be dialed back as a result of the HPFP's crashing @ 4700 with a more aggressive tune.

Here's an excerpt from our post regarding testing with larger injectors and Dorch's HPFP solution. Little easier this way since there was a lot of information to go through.

"Halim has been doing the pump gas testing with several different larger DI injectors options and stock HPFP's for the past year while we have been working on the E85 testing with upgraded DI injectors as well as testing for Dorch Engineering with their HPFP solutions. All we can say is that the results have been nothing short of amazing! Thus far, we have been able to run straight Ignite Red fuel (88% as tested) up to 750whp with PI disconnected and approximately 1000psi less pressure on the high side. At this power level we still have quite a bit of fuel left on the table and are incrementally working on turning power up along with tuning for drivability, cold start, hot start, etc. which is very time consuming with the addition if these higher flowing fueling components on high ethanol content race fuels such as Ignite Red."

The end goal with the larger DI injectors and Dorch's HPFP solution is to be able to make clean and consistently repeatable dyno passes with the more aggressive tune and surpass our previous dyno results with our KRAS55Bi's. We don't foresee this being an issue as our KRAS55EVO's flow significantly more and the major bottleneck of the stock fueling system has now been updated. We will create a new thread and post all data once we've completed testing.

I know this is slightly off topic, but curious to see how you feel about the stock s55 fuel system for just running a full e85 tune on stock turbos with around 590whp? Do you feel the injectors are still bound to fail even if switching to 93 every 3k + using conditioners?

[Sales@KRATOS]

Originally Posted by Msm1984

I know this is slightly off topic, but curious to see how you feel about the stock s55 fuel system for just running a full e85 tune on stock turbos with around 590whp? Do you feel the injectors are still bound to fail even if switching to 93 every 3k + using conditioners?

Yes, DI injectors will fail on full E85 tunes at some point due to continuous high fuel pressure targets. Adding conditioners and filling up with 93 octane every now and then will do nothing to prevent or prolong the life of the DI injectors on a S55 as they are internally steel bodied. This is common practice on older vehicles not designed for modern day fuels that contain E85. Somehow this practice has found it's way into the S55 platform without a true understanding of the fuel system components and what actually causes the failures.

[RSXDC5]

Originally Posted by Sales@KRATOS

Yes, DI injectors will fail on full E85 tunes at some point due to continuous high fuel pressure targets. Adding conditioners and filling up with 93 octane every now and then will do nothing to prevent or prolong the life of the DI injectors on a S55 as they are internally steel bodied. This is common practice on older vehicles not designed for modern day fuels that contain E85. Somehow this practice has found it's way into the S55 platform without a true understanding of the fuel system components and what actually causes the failures.

Would the OTS BM3 E30 map fall into this category as well?