Anyone else get banned from the G8X section for making fun of its looks?

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Much to my substantial amusement, buddy purchased a Veloster N a few days ago. Day 2 we put it through over 3 hours of track time. We started session 1 with 199 miles on the odometer and left with nearly 400. It was shockingly good, ridiculous fun, and capable.

The dealer he purchased from was Hyundai + Genesis, but with a pretty clear priority on Genesis, I think. They sold 250+ cars last month.

While I was there I saw Land Rovers, Cayennes, Mercs pulling in. Also, younger customers trying to work affordable lease deals. An interesting and apparently very productive customer dichotomy. Bottom line, the place was buzzing. Objectively, the same cannot be said for the local BMW dealer.

Back to the Veloster N -- remember when M used to outperform enthusiast expectations? When you didn't feel like you and a handful of other enthusiast idiots could do better after discussing for an hour? That's what Hyundai and Biermann are doing now, particularly with economics considered. Good luck packing more fun, tech, performance, and capability into a $32k car.

My personal issue with the Volester N is just that it reminds me too much of a boy racer, even more so than a Civic Type R, which I find bearable. Never mind the weird, only 1 passenger door thing. While I don't know much regarding the interior of the Civic Type R but I know the Veloster N has a very basic, plastic interior and it bothers me a lot. Which is why I don't think I can ever do that car specifically. I am extremely curious about the wet clutch DCT in the car though.

There is a reason why I kinda went over my own set budget on my GT4 lol

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Arcades

My personal issue with the Volester N is just that it reminds me too much of a boy racer, even more so than a Civic Type R, which I find bearable. Never mind the weird, only 1 passenger door thing. While I don't know much regarding the interior of the Civic Type R but I know the Veloster N has a very basic, plastic interior and it bothers me a lot. Which is why I don't think I can ever do that car specifically. I am extremely curious about the wet clutch DCT in the car though.

There is a reason why I kinda went over my own set budget on my GT4 lol

Great points! I would also add that many who can comfortably spend $35k on a performance oriented Hyundai will begin to look at entry level premium cars, completely jettisoning the idea of buying a Hyundai in lieu of something more upscale.

….or something like a Ford Mustang.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

I have a feeling the Elantra N will likely fix those areas of the Veloster (of course for a premium), but still for around the $35k budget, its hard to find a new car that's nearly that capable and enjoyable while still providing a great warranty (and I believe Hyundai covers 3yrs maintenance!), while also providing options such as Manual or DCT, sport seats, active exhaust, etc. Its one hell of a deal if I've seen one.

And 10 year powertrain. Pretty incredible.

Right, with budgeting as an obvious restriction, they angled this thing perfectly toward the enthusiast. Active exhaust is exactly what you'd want -- quiet in eco, crazy in sport/N mode. Even the Hyundai spec P Zero seems very high quality and durable. Priority on everything performance and fun, shortcuts on some things that aren't.

Originally Posted by Arcades

My personal issue with the Volester N is just that it reminds me too much of a boy racer, even more so than a Civic Type R, which I find bearable. Never mind the weird, only 1 passenger door thing. While I don't know much regarding the interior of the Civic Type R but I know the Veloster N has a very basic, plastic interior and it bothers me a lot. Which is why I don't think I can ever do that car specifically. I am extremely curious about the wet clutch DCT in the car though.

There is a reason why I kinda went over my own set budget on my GT4 lol

It's boy racer for sure, you just have to be in the state of mind. And driving the car puts you there, if anything could... But yeah, obviously not for everyone.

It's less boy racer from every angle than the Type R for me, but open to interpretation.

DCT red line upshifts hit with a major thud. Multiple downshifts are not M DCT quality. As far as we can tell, it won't jump multiple gears on downshifts.

Front diff and traction are immense. Launch control with adjustable rpm is really well done and perfectly calibrated.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Great points! I would also add that many who can comfortably spend $35k on a performance oriented Hyundai will begin to look at entry level premium cars, completely jettisoning the idea of buying a Hyundai in lieu of something more upscale.

….or something like a Ford Mustang.

I'm not sure the customer base is comfortably affording them, frankly. Many are probably stretching and Biermann & Hyundai are making it worth their while, giving them outstanding bang for the buck. Upscale isn't the idea.

The performance equivalent Mustang isn't equal price and it's a completely different style car.

They've found an enthusiast niche, believe me. See them at almost every track day now and plenty out on the road. Buddy called on numerous dealers for weeks before finding one that would even budge off MSRP. Was incredulous, but sure enough the stubborn dealers were moving them within days or weeks of his inquiry.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

I'm not sure the customer base is comfortably affording them, frankly. Many are probably stretching and Biermann & Hyundai are making it worth their while, giving them outstanding bang for the buck. Upscale isn't the idea.

The performance equivalent Mustang isn't equal price and it's a completely different style car.

They've found an enthusiast niche, believe me. See them at almost every track day now and plenty out on the road. Buddy called on numerous dealers for weeks before finding one that would even budge off MSRP. Was incredulous, but sure enough the stubborn dealers were moving them within days or weeks of his inquiry.

Oh I'm sure they are selling. Those dead set on a Hyundai are for sure considering one. That said, someone with that amount of money who is an enthusiast is also likely considering other cars that can be afforded for around $35k +/- $5k or so. A Mustang GT, for example, starts around $35k…..and it performs. With a VN in one hand and a GT in the other, I would go GT all day.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Oh I'm sure they are selling. Those dead set on a Hyundai are for sure considering one. That said, someone with that amount of money who is an enthusiast is also likely considering other cars that can be afforded for around $35k +/- $5k or so. A Mustang GT, for example, starts around $35k…..and it performs. With a VN in one hand and a GT in the other, I would go GT all day.

Think it's more likely the car is convincing vs. being long-term brand loyal, or dead set on a Hyundai! They're building and getting this done on merit.

Mustang GT also great value for sure, different style car. Performance Pack GT, which I think would approximate track readiness (not pace) is ~$10k more than an N. Hatchback really is its own thing. Those buyers often don't want a coupe. My buddy w/ family can't do a coupe.

Anyways, not trying to convince a group of pending P owners to buy a Veloster. Just sharing feedback on a job very well done from the guy who used to deliver for M enthusiasts.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Think it's more likely the car is convincing vs. being long-term brand loyal, or dead set on a Hyundai! They're building and getting this done on merit.

Mustang GT also great value for sure, different style car. Performance Pack GT, which I think would approximate track readiness (not pace) is ~$10k more than an N. Hatchback really is its own thing. Those buyers often don't want a coupe. My buddy w/ family can't do a coupe.

Anyways, not trying to convince a group of pending P owners to buy a Veloster. Just sharing feedback on a job very well done from the guy who used to deliver for M enthusiasts.

Oh I don't think it's that at all personally.

For me, I just kind of grew out of a style of car like that. Younger me in middle school to high school that enjoyed Fast and Furious maybe. Definitely not now lol.

I still have a picture of my Jetta. I kinda cringe at it tbh.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Arcades

Oh I don't think it's that at all personally.

For me, I just kind of grew out of a style of car like that. Younger me in middle school to high school that enjoyed Fast and Furious maybe. Definitely not now lol.

I still have a picture of my Jetta. I kinda cringe at it tbh.

The photos of my first 4 or 5 cars - ranging from a '93 RX-7 to multiple Honda Civics - make me cringe as well. I mean, my Ford Escort had a big primer wing on the back and roll-call stickers down the door, just like my RX-7 and Super Street-esque '97 Honda Civic. My cars didn't even become moderately respectable in terms of mods until my '00 Honda Civic Hatch.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

The photos of my first 4 or 5 cars - ranging from a '93 RX-7 to multiple Honda Civics - make me cringe as well. I mean, my Ford Escort had a big primer wing on the back and roll-call stickers down the door, just like my RX-7 and Super Street-esque '97 Honda Civic. My cars didn't even become moderately respectable in terms of mods until my '00 Honda Civic Hatch.

Do you regret getting rid of the RX-7?

[Sedan_Clan]

Haha! Circa-2000……with a built Frankenstein, various Mugen/Spoon/CTR parts, etc. It made the InlineFour car of the month. That sure helped it sell quickly. Lol! How the hell did I ever roll around without A/C way back when?!?! Nuts!

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Arcades

Do you regret getting rid of the RX-7?

Knowing what I know now?!? Yes! I would've kept that gem of a car. I didn't know much about rotaries at the time and Civics were the rage. I was 16 at the time I owned the RX-7 and everybody kept telling me rotaries sucked, were high maintenance and would detonate (…even though dudes were putting RX-7 motors in Datsun 510's and drag racing them). I got stage fright and moved to Honda.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Knowing what I know now?!? Yes! I would've kept that gem of a car. I didn't know much about rotaries at the time and Civics were the rage. I was 16 at the time I owned the RX-7 and everybody kept telling me rotaries sucked, were high maintenance and would detonate (…even though dudes were putting RX-7 motors in Datsun 510's and drag racing them). I got stage fright and moved to Honda.

Think the high maintenance part is true, not too positive about the blowing up bit.

Although now a days, replacement parts for 90s Japanese sports cars are extremely expensive.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by Arcades

Oh I don't think it's that at all personally.

For me, I just kind of grew out of a style of car like that. Younger me in middle school to high school that enjoyed Fast and Furious maybe. Definitely not now lol.

I still have a picture of my Jetta. I kinda cringe at it tbh.

Understand a hot hatch not being to everyone's taste, but you don't think Hyundai/Genesis are gaining customer base on merit?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Understand a hot hatch not being to everyone's taste, but you don't think Hyundai/Genesis are gaining customer base on merit?

They are trying, and to me, that's a start.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Interior is where they cut costs, for sure. Plastic and pleather. But quality, supportive seats and very good driver ergonomics.

Same is true with Mazda - I'm driving a CX-5 for the next few weeks and I've never been in sub-200hp 25k CUV that drives as great as that thing.

In sport mode they've seriously tuned it to get every last bit of power out of that thing - holds gears like a fat kid grabbing the last turkey leg at Thanksgiving.

there really is something to be said for driving something low power that wants you to get the most out of it - it's actual fun.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Understand a hot hatch not being to everyone's taste, but you don't think Hyundai/Genesis are gaining customer base on merit?

It isn't the hot hatch that is my "issue" really, it is the exterior design that I'm not personally fond of. It's just me though.

And they probably can in time. Kia and Hyundai has years of stigma to erase. I mean, it was bad enough that in S. Korea some people buy some anonymous badges to cover up their Kia/Hyundai.

It is easier with Genesis since it started off new, sort of.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Same is true with Mazda - I'm driving a CX-5 for the next few weeks and I've never been in sub-200hp 25k CUV that drives as great as that thing.

In sport mode they've seriously tuned it to get every last bit of power out of that thing - holds gears like a fat kid grabbing the last turkey leg at Thanksgiving.

there really is something to be said for driving something low power that wants you to get the most out of it - it's actual fun.

New Mazda's are great cars, truly one of the brands I'm rooting for as they are seriously underappreciated in the market (especially compared to brands like Subaru to which I don't understand their popularity or hype).

My oldest son has a 6-Signature in addition to NB Miata and its an excellent sedan. Comfortable, quick, reliable, surprisingly luxurious, and handles excellently despite FWD, great EPS steering as well. Mazda plans to introduce a new Inline-6 + 8AT powertrain in the next year and rumor has it the 6 will be turned into a RWD Mid-Sized Sedan based off their Vision Coupe concept. I'm definitely excited to see what they're cooking up.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Tecnniqe

They seem hellbent on proving how right they are even though everyone, including them, know they're wrong.
It's really weird for them to keep doubling down on this but at the same time by doing so they can sell the kool-aid while they try to get out from under it.

IME there are only 2 reasons for that:

(1.) The power-boss wants it & has their nuts in a golden banana hammock and it's play-along or lose it all

(2.) The power-boss wants to give every possible chance for success - this can be for a lot of different reasons, but in this case it'd be something like Quandt really wants the design/designer/both to succeed and Reithofer can't kill it until it's 100% obvious, despite all of the support, it's a failure.


What's even more interesting is, despite all that going on, there's also obviously very disturbing internal data pointing at some type of existential crisis - BMWAG has had a TON of key people leave in the last 3ish years and recalling the BMWNA CEO ain't a good sign ... bad juju is clearly cooking internally ...

I'd put decent odds on a shake up sometime during the late summer/fall or over the holidays.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Tecnniqe

I do believe we will see a change to it, but when is the question we don't know.

They seem hellbent on proving how right they are even though everyone, including them, know they're wrong.
It's really weird for them to keep doubling down on this but at the same time by doing so they can sell the kool-aid while they try to get out from under it.

How are we qualifying this statement? I don't know that (y)our personal feelings about any given product are enough to make that determination. The products are selling despite some level of animus from those on the other side of the line. We all look for confirmation of our own personal biases. People move on from companies and we go, "ZOMG! It's inner turmoil. They're sinking….fast!"…..when it truly just may be a difference in direction/ideas. Companies evolve and people don't always evolve in sync, thus, they go elsewhere. It's the nature of business.

Case in point: Honda! I used to love EVERYTHING they built…..from Civic to Prelude to Accord. Over time things changed. People came & went and designs no longer resonated with me. I chose to spend my money elsewhere, but that didn't stop the company from doing their thing and selling cars. People who hated the designs came around (…due to K vs B motor performance). Some of us never came around. The company is still doing well today. Even today I chose a lesser performing Corolla over a Civic simply due to interior/exterior design.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by Arcades

It isn't the hot hatch that is my "issue" really, it is the exterior design that I'm not personally fond of. It's just me though.

And they probably can in time. Kia and Hyundai has years of stigma to erase. I mean, it was bad enough that in S. Korea some people buy some anonymous badges to cover up their Kia/Hyundai.

It is easier with Genesis since it started off new, sort of.

If only they gave us this, the best looking N, for EU only though

[Tecnniqe]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

How are we qualifying this statement? I don't know that (y)our personal feelings about any given product are enough to make that determination. The products are selling despite some level of animus from those on the other side of the line. We all look for confirmation of our own personal biases. People move on from companies and we go, "ZOMG! It's inner turmoil. They're sinking….fast!"…..when it truly just may be a difference in direction/ideas. Companies evolve and people don't always evolve in sync, thus, they go elsewhere. It's the nature of business.

Case in point: Honda! I used to love EVERYTHING they built…..from Civic to Prelude to Accord. Over time things changed. People came & went and designs no longer resonated with me. I chose to spend my money elsewhere, but that didn't stop the company from doing their thing and selling cars. People who hated the designs came around (…due to K vs B motor performance). Some of us never came around. The company is still doing well today. Even today I chose a lesser performing Corolla over a Civic simply due to interior/exterior design.

Of course, everything sells to some people.

I'm making my statement based on what I see and how the company itself is acting around it.

No way the PR would be the same as it is and have been had they been thinking they're right.
They know they are in the wrong, hence their own focus group said it's a mistake and I have not seen anything remedy that.

The fact we have such polarizing opinions which only serves to put people in one camp or another is bad and terrible for the brand itself, as it serves nobody really well.

Which begs the question why they're doubling down to begin with. Pride? Bad leadership?

We could all turn out to be wrong and it'll make record profits, which they might be willing to sacrifice parts of their community for by appealing to different crowds and moving every car toward more luxurious style and less harsh raw sports car feeling.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

How are we qualifying this statement? I don't know that (y)our personal feelings about any given product are enough to make that determination. The products are selling despite some level of animus from those on the other side of the line. We all look for confirmation of our own personal biases. People move on from companies and we go, "ZOMG! It's inner turmoil. They're sinking….fast!"…..when it truly just may be a difference in direction/ideas. Companies evolve and people don't always evolve in sync, thus, they go elsewhere. It's the nature of business.

Case in point: Honda! I used to love EVERYTHING they built…..from Civic to Prelude to Accord. Over time things changed. People came & went and designs no longer resonated with me. I chose to spend my money elsewhere, but that didn't stop the company from doing their thing and selling cars. People who hated the designs came around (…due to K vs B motor performance). Some of us never came around. The company is still doing well today. Even today I chose a lesser performing Corolla over a Civic simply due to interior/exterior design.

While I get your point, Honda and BMW are in different price brackets. People spending $20-30k on a car probably don't give a shit about the design that much to put their money elsewhere, vs spending $60k+ on a car.